Red Heat: A Game of Russian Roulette

[MpozoY]

How many of those cases were between coalitions capable of fielding 1000+ each?


No, the problem with sov isn't "how do twenty guys in rifters hold a system against a hundred guys in aeons", that's looking at it from the wrong perspective. The current problem with the system is that we're looking at a few big timers, the most important of which is the very last station timer. Defend the system and rep up everything on that last timer, and you've set back a week or whatever worth of progress. This is demotivating to go through more than once as an attacker, and it's demotivating to be unable to defend a few systems in a row using this sovsystem. So both sides bring ze blob, at least for the final timer, instead of having tons of smaller fights over peripheral systems, with some wins, some losses, and no huge fucking setback because you lost ONE fight.

That's the problem with the current sov system. If fixing this means smaller entities are able to carve out a small backwater system or two for themselves, wouldn't you call that a win? Not something to design the whole system around, certainly, but it'd be a nice side-effect if it happened.

Having "tons of smaller fights across multiple systems" is no different from having a bunch of fights going on on grid in the same system against station / SBUs / etc. It doesn't really get rid of 'the blob' at all, all it affects are technical matters on the servers which are rendered irrelevant with TiDi. Besides, the whole point of EVE's structure is to encourage multiple triple-digit fleets crashing into each other, since any other crap game can handle up to 64x64 battles. The devs aren't going to try to change that even if they thought they could, it'd blow the point of an instanceless server.

What you're talking about regarding the shittiness of one timer resetting everything could be accomplished just by changing it so when you rep something it drops to the previous reinforce cycle.

[tgr]

That would at least be an improvement, certainly, but it doesn't really distinguish any system from the other, apart from whether or not the players have installed an ihub or station.

[Arrador]

Buff Dreads and bring back POS Sov.


Edit: yes I'm being some what facetious and ironic. But only somewhat.

[Lorren Canada]

Warp disruptor, warp scrambler, Bubbles, Infinite point these all stop people from jumping out to a cyno

Yes, I'm talking about an area affect weapon though

[Matos]

Yes, I'm talking about an area affect weapon though

Warp disruptor, warp scrambler, Bubbles, Infinite point these all stop people from jumping out to a cyno

If you mean grid/system/whatever wide effects that is another thing but bubbles are an area affecting mechanism

[Lorren Canada]

If you mean grid/system/whatever wide effects that is another thing but bubbles are an area affecting mechanism

I should be clearer, I'm talking about a system wide affect. Sort of like a system wide hictor bubble that could stop enemy supers/caps from jumping out or like a pos mod that could be used to trap hostile supers logged off in system.

edit: Now that I think about it the idea seems slightly redundant to put it on a ship and I like the pos module idea better.

[Arrador]

I don't think anyone wants to eliminate the huge fuck-off big fleets, what we want to do is eliminate the need for all fuck-off big fleets, all the time, for every fucking timer, with a bajillion fucking supers, causing big fuckoff blueballs more often than not, until the last fucking timer.

And my argument is, that a multi-objective based Sov system is not the answer, and I've listed examples of 'why not' in EvE history, right down to the one that just started this sov argument. The biggest problem lies in long ass and especially static timers. No matter what time you alarm clock an op to RF something, it will always come out at the same time. At least with a POS, you can alarm clock an op and hope for a favorable timer.

[tgr]

And my argument is, that a multi-objective based Sov system is not the answer, and I've listed the examples in EvE history, right down to the one that just started this sov argument. The biggest problem lies in long ass and especially static timers. No matter what time you alarm clock an op to RF something, it will always come out at the same time. At least with a POS, you can alarm clock an op and hope for a favorable timer.

Yes, and the thing I've had in mind has been something kind of like the POS system, only without the POSes themselves and without it being anchored to moons, but to planets instead. I'm not sure if the thing would be to have a structure with shields and the same timing mechanic as POSes do now, to allow for timing feints after the attacks have begun, or whether it's something which should be setup when setting up that particular structure by adding f.ex stront and hoping the timer is correct. But basically, just smaller targets in each system, which enables certain systems to be more valuable purely on the basis of its innate structure, is small enough that smaller fleets can complete one in a reasonable enough time, and has that tug of war going which was present back in the day, with a variable timer which was subject to human fuckups etc, albeit hopefully without the worst of the POS-induced miseries through hilarious features such as self-reinforcing them with their own guns.

[Rene Winter]

Its not that we don't like them or want them to go away, but thats literally the only fights lately, the all or nothing brawls. We'd like reasons to have smaller fights where the game functions normally, we'd like some reasons for people to not bet every single thing they have, OR nothing at all, on every fight because of the severity of the situation.

I really hate myself for saying this, but TGR is absolutely right, the constant tug of war from POS warfare wasn't ideal, but it was better than the singular massive fuck off fights that we have now.

Huge fights are great, they make some awesome memories, I still remember the BKG fights from up north, and that was years ago, but its the fact that now days, you either fully commit for one of these timers (always the final timer), or you're fucked and nothing happens at all.

Believe that we don't want to do away with the 2000 man fights, but we'd like to see a REASON to have smaller scale fights as well, beyond "hey theres a roaming gang of 50 dudes here, ask them to hold on while we form up for 30 minutes" or some inane shit like that.

It's a hard nut to crack. One thought I had recently was to add 4 spawned objectives into a system that spawn when the systems drop into a vulnerable state. They would have a small ish amount of HP (10 BCs would take ~3.5 minutes to flip one). When you land the killing blow on one you get a dialog to assign the objective to SBUing/or Owning alliance. They would give a SYSTEM wide bonus to that Alliance ONLY of (and this is just a rough suggestion. 40% Damage increase, 300% DMG increase to structures, 20% S/A Resist bonus, 20% Shield/Armor Bonus). And I suppose you need to buff rats while any objective is taken to make sure people don't SBU their own systems to be super carebears.

The consequence of this is that forces belonging to the alliances in conflict would count more than coalition forces. Fleets could blob and not split but they would be ceding massive force multiplying bonuses to the enemy. Renter alliances would be harder to protect because the number of players eligible for bonuses would be much smaller than the attackers. The possibility of a wide front opens up because a 340% DMG bonus to structures would give a smaller number of players the ability to take a system.

And throw in for good measure.

1. Cut Structure HP to 1/5 of what it is now, and give a 100% HP bonus for ever level of SOV past 1. (Systems held for longer are harder to take)
2. Make the days owned counter start counting at the number of days the alliance has owned the SOV in the past 50 days or something. IE a lvl 5 system that was taken a week ago will be back to 5 in a week.

[Jones Bones]

Then it's agreed there's only one possible solution: Instanced Battlegrounds.

[Some Market Dude]

Plain and simple, there's obviously far better and achievable sov systems out there that would vastly improve gameplay. If people who have no game design experience can convincingly chew at the edges of it while alternatively calling each other down or jerking each other off on some stupid forum, then a dozen nerds who get paid to do it 40 hours a week as a career should be able to figure something out.

Point is find those nerds, put them in a room, pay them, and give us a better game.

[tgr]

The whippings should continue until sov systems improve.

[Mr Coloredshirt]

so what about dem russians

[Omeega]

so what about dem russians

Winter's gone, we're not in our natural habitat anymore

[Themick]

I get the feeling that we wont see any new iteration on sov from CCP til Dust comes out. Contracting some Dust mercs/alliance mates to take a planet in a system, so many planets gives you sov over the system. Also, if Dust comes out and flops, the question becomes how will this affect Eve. It would be hard to capture a planet when there are no soldiers to contract the op to.

[Pielemieni]

so what about dem russians

I hear Stain Empire & Co. reset the AAA blob... I mean bloc. Would be nice to hear if Solar / Gypsy Band do the same.

[MpozoY]

I should be clearer, I'm talking about a system wide affect. Sort of like a system wide hictor bubble that could stop enemy supers/caps from jumping out or like a pos mod that could be used to trap hostile supers logged off in system.

edit: Now that I think about it the idea seems slightly redundant to put it on a ship and I like the pos module idea better.

Anything like that is just going to discourage people from jumping in their supers/caps in the first place unless they have (even more than today) overwhelming chances of winning. You want to encourage battles that seem too close to call, not discourage them. I think there was an idea brought up in another thread about a capital-size hictor with a bigger bubble but someone remarked that having something to tackle titans that can get wiped out in one shot by a doomsday is fairly pointless.

Winter's gone, we're not in our natural habitat anymore

You can drink vodka all year round, you know

[thatsthejoke]

I hear Stain Empire & Co. reset the AAA blob... I mean bloc. Would be nice to hear if Solar / Gypsy Band do the same.

SE moved to Delve. Reset with -A- was on good terms.

[Arrador]

I think there was an idea brought up in another thread about a capital-size hictor with a bigger bubble but someone remarked that having something to tackle titans that can get wiped out in one shot by a doomsday is fairly pointless.

I believe the Idea was a capital sized/variant of a warp disruptor, along with other mods (like a capital sized energy neut) that could only be fit on caps and Supers.

[Mizuchi]

I wonder if said capital sized warp disruptor would have the same range as normal variant (t2=24km), or be longer?

[Omeega]

You can drink vodka all year round, you know

I don't care, Long Live Soviet Union!

[Yue]

I believe the Idea was a capital sized/variant of a warp disruptor, along with other mods (like a capital sized energy neut) that could only be fit on caps and Supers.

Cold War/MAD all over again.

[Perseus Kallistratos]

I hear Stain Empire & Co. reset the AAA blob... I mean bloc. Would be nice to hear if Solar / Gypsy Band do the same.

The way you phrase that makes it sound like a rage reset.

It was mutual, in fact we have told allies before that if they want to play in delve and be over there, resets are inevitable. No reason to stay blue with everyone. Most of my guys are actually excited "we get to shoot Romanian Legion again!"

So when we roam delve from now on we can shoot everyone, RA SE RL etc. etc. etc.

Don't be surprised to see more resets as xix crumbles. Despite the LOL BLUE bullshit, the south has never been one solid ball of blue for extended periods of time, whether by design or by happenstance.

[Lorren Canada]

I think it'd be baller to drop in some fuck off tanked Aeon and point a half dozen titans for the supcaps to come and murder.

[penifSMASH]

I love how the far-fetched moanings about sov warfare change gradually drifted into CFC goonpetNOOB fantasies about retarded AOE shit to kill titans with subcaps because they are too terrible to do it on their own under current mechanics

[Scotch]

I kinda prefer the idea of fixing the shit already in-game before adding new shit that'll probably be broken anyway.

[penifSMASH]

guys we blob 8:1 but we're still too incompetent to kill titans, i know lets petition ccp to introduce 30m ehp 200km hictor bubbles

[Raketefrau]

<sigh>

Once again, the glorious afterglow of a huge-ass fleet battle is ruined by mouse jockeys debating fleet size.

I guess it doesn't even matter that the system held up and people walked away from a 2000-man fleet fight actually feeling good about it, and that they had positive things to say about TiDi, any positive effects of this will be stomped all over by bullshit attempts to overcome basic human psychology.

I mean, there wasn't even a real objective here, it was just a huge pigpile of pilots doing nothing but having fun, and still we get page after page of monotonous debate about stupid shit.

Oh, wait, Kugu.

<Emily Latella>Nevermind.</Emily Latella>

[Saracen]

mouse jockey?

[Combat Scrub]

Sov warfare? I know little about it as the only time I've done it was watching PL chew through stations while shooting useless LG Antimatter Hybrids at a TCU, and losing battles at multiple SBUs while in BCs. But I'm going to throw out my useless idea too. Why not, everyone else has.

First off, for stations, keep the current system as a baseline. Now, add in the control curve like in an incursion, except the control curve changes the timers up or down. An "all blue" curve holds the timer +/- 1 hr the original setting. As the curve goes "red" the timer shortens, up to 24 hours +/- 1 hr. It changes the window of time for the station to go down, reducing the "pile-in" time. The red/blue curve is adjusted by completing objectives (like in Incursions) except that either side can work to complete those objectives (god I don't know what they would be, but sadly I think they'd have to be a PvE objective). In addition, the Sov level sets the default timer (this is good and bad). So if the system has Sov 5, the timer is 5 days at the onset, but can reduced to 4 based on the actions above. Now the second half of this. Tie it into constellation-wide effects. If the more than one system in the constellation is owned by a defender, and a system is lost, Sovereignty in the whole constellation goes down one level (but not below 1). A couple things here: I-HUB upgrades that are based on Sovereignty level will not offline if the sov drops below the required level (so cynojammers won't just stop working, but if it gets blown up and Sov has dropped below 3, then you can't online a new one). This also changes the timers in the remaining systems, and as you work through an entire constellation the last system(s) you capture should be Sov 1 timers (24 hours). In addition, if you capture multiple systems simultaneously (in a constellation) the Sov reduction (and timer reduction) is multiplied as well (but Sov never drops below 1 in this system).

This encourages (but does not require) multiple objectives, because if you hit two (or more) systems simultaneously you shorten the time to conquer completely by days per constellation.

Another piece of this is taking and holding Sov. I'm a fan of the "use it or lose it" model - with no automated increase in Sovereignty levels. If you capture a system, it starts at Sov 1. To get to 2 you have to "use it" - install an iHub and the upgrades, and rat/plex/mine/explore to upgrade it. Based on the level of activity, Sov increases. Of course, the opposite is true. If you don't use a system, the Sov level will decrease automatically (again, modules and upgrades won't offline). So you get a system, install an iHub, rat/plex/mine/explore and upgrade Sov to 5. Then you go away to war. Over time, if no-one uses the system, the actual Sovereignty goes down, but the iHub upgrades (and their products) continue to run at the installed level (so if you have Entrapment Array 5 it will continue to work even if system Sov is 2). Since Sov is tied to activity, a system that "had" high sovereignty is easier to bring back up if the upgrades are in place, since they allow/encourage more activity than the lower level upgrades.

Finally, the farms and fields. iHub upgrades should be attackable (individually), with reinforcement cycles and destruction. The upgrades should have a small signature radius (frigate/cruiser sized), but a decent amount of HP (like a large or medium POS turret), to encourage smaller ships/weapons but in medium-sized gangs. Reinforced iHub upgrades stop functioning until repaired. In addition, there should be a new iHub module (Sov 5 only) that reduces the system's security rating by 50% (or some stupid number that would basically make it the next tier better spawns) and affects all security-based spawns. This would allow an active, residential alliance to improve any space into a more significantly livable area.

[Hilmar Keller]

I don't know much about sov but I'm going to recommend changes

This is what's wrong with 90% of the people running for CSM.

[Combat Scrub]

This is what's wrong with 90% of the people running for CSM.

Good thing I'm not running then.

Oh, and "my useless ideas" aren't the same as recommending changes, but vOv

[Endie]

Our lives are defined by conflict: Union vs Confederacy; Santorum vs the Gays; Theta vs Sigma.

Most of these conflicts are known, by the cognoscenti, to pale in comparison with the aeon-old struggle between Bat Country and Amok. However, as reports came in of vicious and unprovoked IRC aggression against an xDeathx station in Oasa, we knew that we had to lay aside our historic differences. Shadow of xDeathx are tied to us by bonds of blood: it is no exaggeration to say that they are the renters of a person who was once in an alliance that helped the alliance two before the one that we are all in, back in the middle of last decade. You cannot ignore that debt of honour, so the two faces of elite peeveepee set aside petty squabbles and the laws of vendetta, and set off under Bat Country's fourth-best small gang FC, Halosponge.

IRC were in their feared Alphafleet+Raven setup: many across Eve have attempted to copy this format - even Goonwaffe under Vee adopted it as our own after seeing the effectiveness of the IRC Spartans - but success has eluded us all. Unperturbed, and faced with 2:1 odds, the grim-faced warriors of Bat Country and Amok set off, swearing to return in their Drakes or on them. Nobody was under any illusion as to what they faced, but it is better to die in your drake than to live in your botting-tengu.

Things started well, with the summary execution of a vagabond and a drake, but it was hard for the far-smaller Batamok gang, outnumbered by two to one, to match the repping power of the hardened IRC warriors, and panic began to spread in the fleet as our Amok sabre, Chipaya, met a grisly end, trapped in his own bubble.

Halosponge, seeing the faltering will of his men, knew that he had to act rapidly or risk humiliation. "Sons of Amokdot! Of Bat Country! My brothers! I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me! A day may come when the courage of Goons fail, when we forsake our blues and break all bonds of Goonship. But it is not this day. An hour of Muninns and unrepped shields when the age of 3lit3 peeveepee comes crashing down! But it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear in this Good Deklein - your ratting, your plexes and your tengu bots , I bid you stand! Men of the North-West!"

The effect was electrifying. First a Tempest, then a Tornado exploded. More and more rapidly, explosions ringed our outnumbered Band of Broheims. With the deadly determination that all of Eve associates with IRC, they hurled themselves onto our guns, clearly intent on clogging our guns with the bodies of their slain. Or perhaps in the hope that we didn't bring much ammunition.

When all looked lost, almost inexplicably, the IRC fleet warped out. What fresh trickery was this? They had lost less than a quarter of their fleet and had claimed our dictor in return: we would have difficulty sustaining these rates of loss if the fight were to continue another six or seven hours. Sure enough, they warped in, fury in their eyes, and claimed five more ships for less than twenty losses, including our other two sabres. The remaining few Goons prepared to sell their lives dearly when, bewilderingly, IRC fled, having lost less than 40 ships.

The battle won, the station (extremely temporarily) saved and returned to the safety of the three xDeathx members who had formed up for its defence, Batamok exchanged high-fives and headed for home. As a bonus, xDeathx sent us a substantial payment for our mercenary services which will be split amongst the widows of our lost members.

+30 million ISK payment from xDeathx
+0 tech

http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12700768

P.S. Amok hate our euro accents and begged Rydis not to make them do this again.

[anzoxe]

i really did not enjoy reading that

sorry br07

EDIT:yes you did troll me hard

[Swesaal]

I don't really understand half of that BR, goons are now proping up the dead horse?

[Marivauder]

P.S. Amok hate our euro accents and begged Rydis not to make them do this again.

Not everyone can be like Hugh Laurie and put on a unremarkable American accent

[someguyfromoverthere]

Our lives are defined by conflict: Union vs Confederacy; Santorum vs the Gays; Theta vs Sigma.

Most of these conflicts are known, by the cognoscenti, to pale in comparison with the aeon-old struggle between Bat Country and Amok. However, as reports came in of vicious and unprovoked IRC aggression against an xDeathx station in Oasa, we knew that we had to lay aside our historic differences. Shadow of xDeathx are tied to us by bonds of blood: it is no exaggeration to say that they are the renters of a person who was once in an alliance that helped the alliance two before the one that we are all in, back in the middle of last decade. You cannot ignore that debt of honour, so the two faces of elite peeveepee set aside petty squabbles and the laws of vendetta, and set off under Bat Country's fourth-best small gang FC, Halosponge.

IRC were in their feared Alphafleet+Raven setup: many across Eve have attempted to copy this format - even Goonwaffe under Vee adopted it as our own after seeing the effectiveness of the IRC Spartans - but success has eluded us all. Unperturbed, and faced with 2:1 odds, the grim-faced warriors of Bat Country and Amok set off, swearing to return in their Drakes or on them. Nobody was under any illusion as to what they faced, but it is better to die in your drake than to live in your botting-tengu.

Things started well, with the summary execution of a vagabond and a drake, but it was hard for the far-smaller Batamok gang, outnumbered by two to one, to match the repping power of the hardened IRC warriors, and panic began to spread in the fleet as our Amok sabre, Chipaya, met a grisly end, trapped in his own bubble.

Halosponge, seeing the faltering will of his men, knew that he had to act rapidly or risk humiliation. "Sons of Amokdot! Of Bat Country! My brothers! I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me! A day may come when the courage of Goons fail, when we forsake our blues and break all bonds of Goonship. But it is not this day. An hour of Muninns and unrepped shields when the age of 3lit3 peeveepee comes crashing down! But it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear in this Good Deklein - your ratting, your plexes and your tengu bots , I bid you stand! Men of the North-West!"

The effect was electrifying. First a Tempest, then a Tornado exploded. More and more rapidly, explosions ringed our outnumbered Band of Broheims. With the deadly determination that all of Eve associates with IRC, they hurled themselves onto our guns, clearly intent on clogging our guns with the bodies of their slain. Or perhaps in the hope that we didn't bring much ammunition.

When all looked lost, almost inexplicably, the IRC fleet warped out. What fresh trickery was this? They had lost less than a quarter of their fleet and had claimed our dictor in return: we would have difficulty sustaining these rates of loss if the fight were to continue another six or seven hours. Sure enough, they warped in, fury in their eyes, and claimed five more ships for less than twenty losses, including our other two sabres. The remaining few Goons prepared to sell their lives dearly when, inexplicably, IRC fled, having lost less than 40 ships.

The battle won, the station (extremely temporarily) saved and returned to the safety of the three xDeathx members who had formed up for its defence, Batamok exchanged high-fives and headed for home. As a bonus, xDeathx sent us a substantial payment for our mercenary services which will be slpit amongst the widows of our lost members.

+30 million ISK payment from xDeathx
+0 tech

http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12700768

P.S. Amok hate our euro accents and begged Rydis not to make them do this again.

i was there

[tgr]

i was there

eve is real

[Marivauder]

eve is real

CDIA Files: Agent Missions

Am i doing it right?

[UnknownPoster]

I don't really understand half of that BR, goons are now proping up the dead horse?

Yeah didnt you know? We're campaigning for Oasa now.

[Swesaal]

Actually I didn't thats why I would be asking.

[Wki]

Yeah didnt you know? We're campaigning for Oasa now.

Confirming.

[Some Market Dude]

That might be the greatest post I have ever read.

[Raketefrau]

Yeah didnt you know? We're campaigning for Oasa now.

"Campaigning for Oasa" may be my favorite Eve phrase ever.

[Y SO MAD [banned]]

The battle won, the station (extremely temporarily) saved and returned to the safety of the three xDeathx members who had formed up for its defence

Perhaps the greatest post to grace the pages of this terrible, terrible thread.

[Kugu]

Has solar counter attacked and started grinding old sov back and what is PL doing?

[Stanpome]

PL are busy circle jerking in Amamake. Jizz is flying and tits are getting out.

SPRING BREAK!

[Adri]

Has solar counter attacked and started grinding old sov back...?

Sov changes are in the upper left corner of Verite's Influence Map

[Wildside]

PL is currently buzy teaching Hydra reloaded valuable lessions in "ELITE PVP" https://www.pandemic-legion.com/kill....php?id=491114

[Perseus Kallistratos]

PL is currently buzy teaching Hydra reloaded valuable lessions in "ELITE PVP" https://www.pandemic-legion.com/kill....php?id=491114

I hear ratting in a stabbed Machariel in I-1 is the crowning jewel of elite