Ten alliances that face large problems they probably aren't even aware of yet.

[Alex Clomsaver]

1. Aggression.

Aggression, really, they seem to be doing okay to me? Well yes currently they are. At the same time they are formed from sources used to living low sec, people who want (and are requesting) as few blues as possible. Well I would suggest that those people be careful what they wish for, AGGRO's space the former home of UNL, one of AAA's traditional roaming grounds. Aggression is a new alliance with extremely weak communal ties that is stuck between a serial killer and a large mass of people who provide an even more tempting target than AGGRO themselves.

2. Coven and Systemic Chaos

At present these are two small but good alliances with strong allies, good space and ingrained community cultures. However, that can easily be a problem if they let the wrong people in. Their small size means that it is much more easy to reach a critical mass of lowbie carebears after moongold (lets call that Triumvirate Syndrome.) Don't laugh at this assertion, its happened to much better alliances than these two.

3. Executive Outcomes

Yeah, EXE even more than the other GBC members, though they are also at risk. EXE finds itself in the unique position of being made of corporations that are good enough to hold space but with no space to actually conquer independently. Furthermore those corporations only joined Executive Outcomes at a relatively recent date after failing out of other elite, dead, alliances. Supposedly NSN is leaving already, expect several of EXE's other stars to follow suit.

4. Kraftwerk

Okay, maybe these guys can see it coming but that is counteracted by how bad they have it. Not only are their member corps relatively new, many having this as their first space holding alliance, but they are also small and completely surrounded by enemies for the first time. Just as badly there is no single big corp for Kraftwerk to rally around, the alliance as a whole could easily have zero members in two months.

5. Sc0rched Earth

They're big, they're shitty, they're ex-KOS, they're turncoats and they live twelve jumps from AAA. Sc0rched Earth has so far survived based on TCF having too much space and ATLAS being in too much of a hurry. When AGGRO pvpers talk about resetting allies after the war its pretty obvious which alliance in particular they have in mind and that is BYRN. Worst for these guys is that they have a poor leadership that is unable to plan a head and see any of this stuff coming.

6. Triumvirate

Triumvirate knows how to put up a fight and can, when required, field huge numbers. They have a community atmosphere that, while not perfect due to too much reliance on individual corps rather than the alliance as a whole, is better than a lot of the others on this list. So why them? They are an alliance that survives solely by winning and they've picked a fight they cannot win. They have good FCs and good allies but they just don't have the numbers for a victory or the cohesion for a retreat.

7. Goonswarm

Well, the Goons aren't going to die anytime soon I concede. However they could soon be reaching their apex. Goonswarm has had "steady" numbers for around two years now, between five and six thousand. However the population of Eve continues to grow while they stay steady and the population of competing alliances has as well. This is increasingly hard to change too as the goons' home forum, Somethingawful slips into internet irrelevance. Two years ago there were three alliances in the game with over 2000 members while there are nine today (ten if you include HAVOC as part of AAA) At the same time that their enemies have gained numbers they have lost allies, there are currently three dedicated friendly alliances living with Goonswarm and very few traditional allies living close by. This is not what causes problems though, the real problem is that they currently have no real goal to follow, they seem doomed to stagnate.

8. Krautbreak

Krautbreak will either have to adapt to life in a "napfest" or deal with defending space in enemy time zones with little help. For an alliance made of people who swore off conquerable space for years it is up in the air as to whether they will give it up once again, have a good go at it or (as I suspect) deal with corp leavings and drama over it which leave the alliance significantly weakened.

9. KIA

KIA owns space on opposite ends of the map. KIA is regularly unable to defend against incursions from midlevel neighbors. KIA is lead by a fool. KIA hasn't played a major part in a military victory in three and a half years, at the latest. KIA stole their logo from a college in South Carolina. KIA will still survive because of who their leader is friends with. They will still have to deal with all of the above though.

10. Ethereal Dawn/Intrepid Crossing

These alliances sold their proverbial souls for more space when they let in a horde of new corps. Image the looks on their faces (both new and old) when they realized they would only be getting a third of the space they originally wanted. Now image that the look on the IRC faces are sort of downsy because their current leader has a proven track record of abject failure. In the mean time these alliances have no real allies other than themselves and you can just ask R0adkill how much shooting yourself in the foot out of loyalty to your friend gets you. Well you should if you are ED anyway since it is obvious which of the two alliances will next lead ED/IRC into trouble.


Agree, disagree? Go on, tell me how much of a faggot I am.

[Vinata]

Get access to various areas of Goonfleet.com and you'll find the only people who realize how fucked GS is are Epsilon, the Cassandras of Goonfleet.

[CrusaderKnight]

I think that the Goons potentially are set up for fail cascade, unless their leadership is up to dealing with these challenges:

1. No more Bob/Kenny, no more "boogeyman", or "great satan" to motivate them. Goonswarm has been formed and motivated towards that goal since it emerged as a power. Now that Wile E. Coyote has actually CAUGHT the Road Runner what does he do now? What CAN he do now? Can they hang onto their good pvp'ers, or will they leave for other places?

2. Again, with Bob gone from the table, what reason is there for any of their pets (except the two they gave space) to remain aligned to them, especially when they have conflicts amongst themselves (ie: NC vs Xdeath, etc). How will they deal with life without 3/4ths of 0.0 napped to them?

3. AAA/Stain/ROL+whatever outnumbers them, is very powerful, fights in the Russian time zone, and is next door. Can they handle them themselves? They are going to have to, given #2 above, and their other allies are on the other side of the map anyway...

4. Can they survive the "carebear invasion"? This is a disease that affects every space holding alliance to one degree or another, the best run ones keep it to a minimum, but goons face the problem of the war being "over" and the fact that they sit in the most desirable space in 0.0, which means lazy ratters and farmers will naturally flock to them.

5. Goons didn't get to Delve without stepping on a lot of toes (and stabbing more than a few backs). They face the danger of being regarded as "the new Bob", the sitting "evil empire" that everyone else wants to eradicate. I feel this is the greatest threat they face, especially as they soften into "carebearia". Every scam the pull, every theft they take credit for makes them yet another enemy. Sooner or later this will reach a critical mass. Also, each new incident of "goons being goons" will remind people that Goonswarm didn't REALLY win Delve (ie: by beating down the Sov), but that they stole it. What happens if the NC were to turn on them and they find themselves having to defend Delve on two fronts?

[KIAEddZ]

lol.

See whoever it is you fly with in our space anytime soon.

[moonz]

There's no stars in ExE we're all shit

[Fartman]

you clearly don't "get" goons

[Ebodhisatva]

you clearly don't "get" goons

I have this tendency to think even Goons don't 'get' goons tbh

[CrusaderKnight]

you clearly don't "get" goons

Goons or not goons is irrelevant, actually. Bob got brought down essentially because they pissed off too many people, and eventually the WRONG person who pressed the "self destruct" button. The goons now are in the same position, the only direction they CAN go is down from here, and they certainly don't put forth any effort to not piss people off, which will make it happen a little faster is all. Replace them with any alliance, give them Delve, and the same thing will eventually happen.

[Fartman]

Goons or not goons is irrelevant, actually

it is relevant to some of the points you raised

aside from PL (and some goons have left GS to join PL in the past), there really aren't
any other alliances out there the average goon would want to join. for reasons
not the least of which their forums are probably quite terrible and awful.

also, as far as the "lazy carebear" thing, who cares? GS already has plenty of those.
GS leadership doesn't force anyone to do or not do anything.

as for having a reason to exist, there is still plenty of terribleness out there. jade,
evil turd, bobby atlas, etc. some goons might get bored and quit but quite frankly
plenty have gotten bored and quit before now too.

[n0kn0k]

6. Triumvirate

Triumvirate knows how to put up a fight and can, when required, field huge numbers. They have a community atmosphere that, while not perfect due to too much reliance on individual corps rather than the alliance as a whole, is better than a lot of the others on this list. So why them? They are an alliance that survives solely by winning and they've picked a fight they cannot win. They have good FCs and good allies but they just don't have the numbers for a victory or the cohesion for a retreat.

Tri wins all the fights, just never the wars cause they tend to end in a huge blobfest of NC love
There has been an understanding of that fact since the start of the Vale invasion though, so np there with managing expectations I guess.

[totalepicfail]

Tri wins all the fights, just never the wars cause they tend to end in a huge blobfest of NC love

Or you just disband. Tri Mk3 seems to be more stable though so we shall see.

[n0kn0k]

Or you just disband. Tri Mk3 seems to be more stable though so we shall see.

Tri Mk2's fault was to rely on Twinky for alliance leadership and as single fleet FC.
Then he changed Tri army for the RL army Besides that it was pretty stable imho.

[Rotor]

I kinda agree with all the people on the list, maybe not tri because they've got twinkey back it seems(big morale boost, getting people to log in, getting people to get back into tri) and maybe this time he'll learn to adapt instead of himself at full speed into a brick wall...but you never know.

IMO there's a lot of other big alliances like these. CoW for example and their people. And maybe even Atlas, i like them a lot but when you start getting numbers like that after you get some wins you can be sure you'll lose them as soon as someone takes 2-3 of your stations and goons might be doing that as they seem to love Atlas.

BoB. You said they're dead. I think we're getting nearer to the point where they'll really be dead. Aka No reunited alliance, no moar corps, etc. I can only hope.
I also hope there will be some huge northern drama otherwise it'll be boring.
And why not PL, Shamis really knows how to run an alliance and keep drama away, but imo once you've got the best ex-tri corp with all its superstars you're pretty much sitting in a room full of monkeys with grenades in their hands. If there will be any drama, I hope it's gonna be as fun as the death of tri mk1, ?PL? but in all honesty I wanna see lots and lots of alliances breaking and people resetting each other.

I hope in the next 2-3 month PL will push a lot of the aforementioned alliances into full failcascades.

[Alex Clomsaver]

BoB isn't on the list because they actually see what their problems are and are trying to correct them, PL isn't on the list because I honestly don't think they have much to worry about right now, CoW isn't on the list because they have a lot of corps that are familiar with holding space in that very area and are used to surviving as a whole even if their space is lost.

No one has asked but the reason SE isn't on the list while SYS-K and Coven are is that I don't think they are dumb enough to let in carebear posers, they've learned from their time in AAA what they want and do not want to do with their alliance.

[Malaclypse]

CoW isn't on the list because they have a lot of corps that are familiar with holding space in that very area and are used to surviving as a whole even if their space is lost.

Well, they may be not a top10 one and they may even regonize their problems, yet it doesn't mean there would be none (even if they probably survive it in one way or another).

CoW in it's current form pretty much mass-recruited/absorbed a good chunk of the old and failed Fountain-invaders of PMS/F0E (Quam Singulari, Lockdown, Muppets... A total of 5 corps of 18) and some other corps here and there. The split of that PMS/F0E-train - apart from the internal drama in between Aneu, Arimathea, C4w3 and whomnot ofc. and the lack of Dreads *blah* (it's on CAOD...) - kinda as well rooted in a very different mindset of the corps and/or memberbases perspectives.
Let's take LCKD as an exampe; splitted from Huzzah becuz of differnet viewpoints of Zarnie and El Covah on taking space. (Couldn't really figre out who was on what page but I'll just guess Covah was out for soem moons&space.) Well, LCDK joined the PMS-train, yet F0E more or less took a backseat in "pen15"ing around in Fountain. After the fold of PMS I remember some Quam Singulari and ofc. F0E (inc. LCKD pilots) saying "Yeah *blah* got out of hand, we grouped for the good fights, not for that moon shit, was never ment to take sov". Now guess what, they are leaving for the GW to simply "pew-pew" all that's crosses their ways... Not a full month later they're again fighting moons & sov (yet this time with a group of allied forces being far more successful than the PMS-train ever even could've hoped for dreaming of.
Anyways, wrapping it up... Either that group within CoW is rather schizophrenic or the screams for "pew-pew w/o POS-shit" will be getting louder as soon as space holding turns out to be tough work or losses pounding in.

(P.S. First post here on kugu's )

[Yorda]

1. No more Bob/Kenny, no more "boogeyman", or "great satan" to motivate them. Goonswarm has been formed and motivated towards that goal since it emerged as a power. Now that Wile E. Coyote has actually CAUGHT the Road Runner what does he do now? What CAN he do now? Can they hang onto their good pvp'ers, or will they leave for other places?

2. Again, with Bob gone from the table, what reason is there for any of their pets (except the two they gave space) to remain aligned to them, especially when they have conflicts amongst themselves (ie: NC vs Xdeath, etc). How will they deal with life without 3/4ths of 0.0 napped to them?

3. AAA/Stain/ROL+whatever outnumbers them, is very powerful, fights in the Russian time zone, and is next door. Can they handle them themselves? They are going to have to, given #2 above, and their other allies are on the other side of the map anyway...

4. Can they survive the "carebear invasion"? This is a disease that affects every space holding alliance to one degree or another, the best run ones keep it to a minimum, but goons face the problem of the war being "over" and the fact that they sit in the most desirable space in 0.0, which means lazy ratters and farmers will naturally flock to them.

5. Goons didn't get to Delve without stepping on a lot of toes (and stabbing more than a few backs). They face the danger of being regarded as "the new Bob", the sitting "evil empire" that everyone else wants to eradicate. I feel this is the greatest threat they face, especially as they soften into "carebearia". Every scam the pull, every theft they take credit for makes them yet another enemy. Sooner or later this will reach a critical mass. Also, each new incident of "goons being goons" will remind people that Goonswarm didn't REALLY win Delve (ie: by beating down the Sov), but that they stole it. What happens if the NC were to turn on them and they find themselves having to defend Delve on two fronts?

1. No prob we dont have any good pvp'rs

2/3. How can we have 3/4th's of eve napped and still be outnumbered idgi

4. Most goons make isk by scamming in empire so w/e

5. We're different from BoB in one regard: We realize we're fucking terrible and only won because our allies are amazing <3. Unless empire carebears form up a coalition due to our scamming I don't think we have too much to worry about, atleast not until every red is compeltely dead which I don't see happening, uh, ever.

Oh and Alex you're a pretty giant faggot but at least you're a correct giant faggot.

[Fartman]

(P.S. First post here on kugu's )

Which Malaclypse are you: the Younger or the Elder?

[Malaclypse]

Depends on the mood and timestream we're moving on. Though the ladies prefer the Younger. I mean... Tantra with Viagra ain't that kEwL y'know.
Oh, and yes, the Eris IS my most favourite ship in EvE (though not becuz it's such an "awesome" dictor... [EDIT]but it's an amazing salvaging boat. x)

[Rotor]

4. Most goons make isk by scamming in empire so w/e

You know that's not true. Prolly less than 10% of the goons actually scam. The rest just use the reputation to act like they do it. And tbh, everyone scams/tries to scam nowadays.

[Sirius A]

Yorda, I think you would be surprised how many goons have scammed 0.0 players looking to get into a bigger stronger alliance.

[Vinata]

I think that the Goons potentially are set up for fail cascade, unless their leadership is up to dealing with these challenges:

1. No more Bob/Kenny, no more "boogeyman", or "great satan" to motivate them. Goonswarm has been formed and motivated towards that goal since it emerged as a power. Now that Wile E. Coyote has actually CAUGHT the Road Runner what does he do now? What CAN he do now? Can they hang onto their good pvp'ers, or will they leave for other places?

The uncertainty of what to do is certainly a gigantic problem. The problem about PvPers isn't, as we honestly have very few. Goonswarm's strength rests in its organizational abilities. Plenty of groups have the numbers to match or exceed Goonswarm, but Goons are able to bring them to bear because of excellent internal organization.

2. Again, with Bob gone from the table, what reason is there for any of their pets (except the two they gave space) to remain aligned to them, especially when they have conflicts amongst themselves (ie: NC vs Xdeath, etc). How will they deal with life without 3/4ths of 0.0 napped to them?

They're allies, not pets. We don't charge them money for their space, and they hold it independently of us. We also don't own any R64 moons in their space, or make any money off of them in other ways. This may not be true for KIA and ZAF, I have no idea what the deal is with them.

As for NC and xdeathx fighting, well that's them. Just because they're our friends doesn't mean they have to be friends with each other. If they get in a war with each other, there's nothing we can do about it.

3. AAA/Stain/ROL+whatever outnumbers them, is very powerful, fights in the Russian time zone, and is next door. Can they handle them themselves? They are going to have to, given #2 above, and their other allies are on the other side of the map anyway...

Thug only goes after turkey shoots, and has no real reason or incentive to attack Delve. Our biggest threat right now is PL, who are our neighbors and will be actively sending roaming gangs through our space. They won't be invading though, because we're friends.

4. Can they survive the "carebear invasion"?

The majority of Goons are carebears, as can be seen in participation numbers. Out of a 5,000 man alliance there are rarely more than 150 in fleet, because we only have about 400 or 500 people who are into the game solely for PvP.

5. Goons didn't get to Delve without stepping on a lot of toes (and stabbing more than a few backs)...What happens if the NC were to turn on them and they find themselves having to defend Delve on two fronts

Most of the toes we've stepped on are either disbanded or no longer in 0.0, with the only noatble exceptions being Atlas and -A-'s powerbloc. We actually stabbed none of our allies in the back, with the only debatble exceptions being IAC and KOS, who we let die when -A- began fighting them.

Aside from that the only once-allies who have ever claimed we back stabbed them are the members of ROL. They can say we betrayed them all they want, but in the end RA sold us that constellation and ROL (who were in RA) decided to not leave even after being ordered to by RA. They stabbed their alliance and alliance's allies in the back.

The NC has no reason to want to invade Delve, as it is too far from their own space and they have enough R64s to satisfy them. They also have xdeathx to worry about.

[Equium Duo]

I know we very rarely see true internal communications from goons/PL in here since this site really is their place on the internet, but as an outsider looking in, on face value you see in the form of goons a pack of rabid monkeys with sticks, bones and stones running at enemies, notice they all run the same way though?

This in itself is indicative of the power of goon leadership, or the broski value that they possess. Goons are almost always going in the same direction no matter how rag tag they seem.

As for PL, these monkey's have nice gold plated sticks and stones, cooler hair and more stylish clothes, but still they all go the same way, and anyone who has tried knows they pick who they let in very carefully. Its not a ten minute convo picked out of the recruitment channel. PL expanded very slowly, they make precise moves and do it in style.

I want to be a cool monkey,

TLR i forgot where i was going with this and called everyone mokey's..

[Vinata]

Goonswarm works very differently than other alliances. Here is what the average "internal communication" looks like.

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/5...adstructur.gif

[Alex Clomsaver]

We actually stabbed none of our allies in the back, with the only debatble exceptions being IAC and KOS, who we let die when -A- began fighting them.

Also Smash and Roadkill over complex drama back in early 07/late 06, Antrax Death in middle 08, Venom before Anthrax, BlackOut who were given space they couldn't defend and then left to die, a bunch of original drone regioners who were eaten by our allies and blame it on us even though its really not our fault, TIFA who were scammed out of money in a fake region sale despite being made of former RSF vassal corps and being interested in helping in the war against AAA and NORAD who we had negotiated a mutual defense pact with shortly before D-Day.

[Alex Clomsaver]

Not to mention all of those "other coalition" members who blame us for their deaths in the great war despite it being their leader's fault and Vainolinoloce who were just to fucking annoying to live with.

As for Goonswarm leadership style? What you all need to realize is that the stereotypical goon is very opinionated but those opinions don't mean a goddamn thing as far as actual policy goes, that is controlled by thirty or so talented individuals who focus in on areas of the game that they are unnaturally good at (sixty if you include the PL leadership too, hurhurhur.)

[theTwilitehour]

Eh I just wrote an article about whether or not Goonswarm can survive their own victory for mmorpgfocus.com but largely I think the largest problem Goons will have is an identity crisis as they can no longer define themselves as the underdogs fighting their vile opponents BoB.

[Vinata]

TIFA who were scammed out of money in a fake region sale despite being made of former RSF vassal corps and being interested in helping in the war against AAA and NORAD who we had negotiated a mutual defense pact with shortly before D-Day.

I'll give you TIFA since I didn't even know about them, but the pact with NORAD was made before Goonswarm came into existence.

[Alex Clomsaver]

It was negotiated by Goonfleet diplomats during the time where OSS was 95% Goonfleet and was made at a time where Goonfleet's leaders knew they were breaking away from OSS and taking over their lands in Syndicate.

[Vinata]

A valid deal with Prussia wasn't a valid deal with Germany.

[Alex Clomsaver]

A valid deal with the USSR was a valid deal with Russia.

[Vinata]

I was going from a group of smaller nations into being a single one, you're going from a single nation splitting into smaller nations. That's the exact opposite of process here.

[The Mittani]

Eh I just wrote an article about whether or not Goonswarm can survive their own victory for mmorpgfocus.com but largely I think the largest problem Goons will have is an identity crisis as they can no longer define themselves as the underdogs fighting their vile opponents BoB.

this thread is full of dumb but this may be the worst of it

goon identity comes from somethingawful.com, not from stuff that happens in a spaceship game

hth

[Wesley]

goon identity comes from somethingawful.com, not from stuff that happens in a spaceship game

Be honest, we are all friends here...goons leadership takes all these internet pixels as serious as the next alliance leadership, and it has nothing to do with a retarded forum, you lot are just as addicted to this bullshit game as Molle and his lots of retards. The fuckwad who logs in a few times a month to dick around in eve isnt what makes your alliance work, its the eve addict who does...and their ingame identity has fuck all to do with somethingstupid.com

To be fair, I don't think the death of bob means shit to the success of goons, or failure...but dont pretend you guys are all about some 8th grade jokes, when your hardcore geeks are the same as every other alliances hard core geeks...

[Wesley]

6. Triumvirate

Triumvirate knows how to put up a fight and can, when required, field huge numbers. They have a community atmosphere that, while not perfect due to too much reliance on individual corps rather than the alliance as a whole, is better than a lot of the others on this list. So why them? They are an alliance that survives solely by winning and they've picked a fight they cannot win. They have good FCs and good allies but they just don't have the numbers for a victory or the cohesion for a retreat.

Define victory? Where would we retreat to? NPC space?

[Fartman]

Be honest, we are all friends here...goons leadership takes all these internet pixels as serious as the next alliance leadership, and it has nothing to do with a retarded forum, you lot are just as addicted to this bullshit game as Molle and his lots of retards. The fuckwad who logs in a few times a month to dick around in eve isnt what makes your alliance work, its the eve addict who does...and their ingame identity has fuck all to do with somethingstupid.com

To be fair, I don't think the death of bob means shit to the success of goons, or failure...but dont pretend you guys are all about some 8th grade jokes, when your hardcore geeks are the same as every other alliances hard core geeks...

u mad?

[hadtoregistertoreadit]

Not to mention all of those "other coalition" members who blame us for their deaths in the great war despite it being their leader's fault and Vainolinoloce who were just to fucking annoying to live with.

As for Goonswarm leadership style? What you all need to realize is that the stereotypical goon is very opinionated but those opinions don't mean a goddamn thing as far as actual policy goes, that is controlled by thirty or so talented individuals who focus in on areas of the game that they are unnaturally good at (sixty if you include the PL leadership too, hurhurhur.)

only thirty people do the admin work for the entire alliance? how do those people even find time to play the game?

[Wesley]

u mad?

Well Mittens does snub my love...so sad would be closer to the truth

[theTwilitehour]

this thread is full of dumb but this may be the worst of it

goon identity comes from somethingawful.com, not from stuff that happens in a spaceship game

hth

Then why does fleet participation go up and down so much? Why do so many goons take long breaks from eve and come back? Obviously any something awful member is a something awful member, but the question is if they're going to be actively playing eve and participating. This may be obvious, but in light of you post I feel like you need it spelled out for you: a goon does not necessarily mean a playing goonfleet member. SA has like 100k "goons" they don't all play eve. Or maybe you weren't aware of that?

[Fartman]

Then why does fleet participation go up and down so much? Why do so many goons take long breaks from eve and come back? Obviously any something awful member is a something awful member, but the question is if they're going to be actively playing eve and participating. This may be obvious, but in light of you post I feel like you need it spelled out for you: a goon does not necessarily mean a playing goonfleet member. SA has like 100k "goons" they don't all play eve. Or maybe you weren't aware of that?

what does any of this have to do with where goons' identity/culture originates from?

[ansecos]

Does The Mittani's announcement of another great war occurring in the drone regions count on the list for ED/IRC?

[Malaclypse]

what does any of this have to do with where goons' identity/culture originates from?

Nothing in particular, since it's not even the primary question at hand anyways. The question was how the purge of Kenny from 0.0 space will effect the, let's call it "active EVE-squad of SA.com", namely the GoonSwarm alliance and its members' in-game activity. And as again Kenny demonstrated recently it's not healthy if the ppl ment to pull the waggon are inactive. And as mentioned somewhere here before a lot of Goonies started to log in again (which implies they went inactive) cuz -A- turned on them last autumn; sponsored by ROL. As well as it's at least common perception that, before the disband, Goonie participation was lowering again in the Souther War.
So, what will counter a continual downspiral of participation/interest now that their goal that motivated the goons to become a 0.0-power from the small npc-nullsecers they were in '06. (It's a new goal apparently but what will that one be?)

TL;DR version: Who cares about their cultural origins, what matters if it will be enough for them to stay "relevant" within EvE.

They're allies, not pets. We don't charge them money for their space, and they hold it independently of us. We also don't own any R64 moons in their space, or make any money off of them in other ways. This may not be true for KIA and ZAF, I have no idea what the deal is with them.

Knowing Hunter he most definitively won't pay any rent for space. ZAF didn't when it took over AD's station in NZW and it didn't in Wicked Creek before being thrown out by TCF/FTZ for reasons still a mystery to me. ZAF fights for their space and that's the only way they will "pay" for it. At least that attitude of Hunter was p. cool.

[Alex Clomsaver]

I was going from a group of smaller nations into being a single one, you're going from a single nation splitting into smaller nations. That's the exact opposite of process here.

Actually no, OSS--->OHGOD resulted in membership numbers going down as several of the OSS corps shuffled off to the south to get their asses handed to them.

As to BoB's death affecting Goonswarm, it didn't have to because Goonswarm will always find someone to hate. Self-destructive measures like closing the warroom, which were caused by BoB's death, will end up hurting them.

[Malaclypse]

[...] the real problem is that they currently have no real goal to follow, they seem doomed to stagnate.

As to BoB's death affecting Goonswarm, it didn't have to because Goonswarm will always find someone to hate. Self-destructive measures like closing the warroom, which were caused by BoB's death, will end up hurting them.

Hey, you brought the point up, I was only pretending to get things back on track.

[Alex Clomsaver]

Well the thing is, even with someone to hate they still have no reason to actually go out and kill them since they have the best space in the game. In my original post the "goal" was Delve, not BoB. That's something that AAA with their spread out, underdeveloped space doesn't have.

[Malaclypse]

Yeah, I'm not refering to BoB only when speaking of a goal myself, but ofc getting into Delve while shootin BoB out of it/out of 0.0. I mean, you surely will agree that the dream of owning Delve someday was an offspring of the "hatred" towards BoB HQ'ing in it, nope?! Which brings us (me) down to the point again that the SA.com identity alone apparently's not enough to keep Goons in-game healthy at all times (which was the initial point I was refering to answering Fartman; put paraphrasing each other's cool nontheless. *g*).

[Alex Clomsaver]

Well that might be why Delve is brought up on the forums as often as it is but we ultimately wanted it for the same reason BoB did, its the best space in the game with easy to defend choke points, misssions to run in NPC Delve, easy rats to kill and lots of sov4 stations.

Then again, wherever goons live is the best space in the game...

Oh lawdy lawd, two belts of crokite, I done died and wen' to hevin!
I can't believe it, we "own" the rights to an entire system, we have a place on the map!
Look at all this Bistot in our Outer Ring home!
Holy shit lots of ark in 0.0 Cloud Ring here we come!
Scalding Pass is seriously some of the best space in the game with great true sec and all the ark you can mine.
Feyth has so many stations and we're getting half of them, this is awesome.

There has always been a progression in Goonswarm's territory but now that we own Delve there is nothing left to conquer. Well maybe Fountain and western Catch would be profitable but not with the people you would have to shift out of there.

[Rotor]

Well, you keep mentioning the warroom, can you explain exactly what it is and why it is so important?

From what I understand it's where the leaders of all the big alliances come to talk, etc, right?

So why is it such a big deal it got closed? Goons will re-open it as soon as they'll be in trouble. And who's gonna attack Delve now? No one really can, if you're not in the nc, nc+goons+pl will kill you. If you're in the NC you'll find yourself without land very soon.

Imo the only thing that can kill goonswarm is goonswarm itself.

[Vinata]

Nothing in particular, since it's not even the primary question at hand anyways.

Yes it is.

I think the largest problem Goons will have is an identity crisis

The debate at hand was about Goonswarm's identity, which is "Goons who play EVE."

Well, you keep mentioning the warroom, can you explain exactly what it is and why it is so important?

From what I understand it's where the leaders of all the big alliances come to talk, etc, right?

Goonswarm's general discussion forum used to also be where ops and information was posted. This began to cause a lot of clutter, so The War Room was made for all the EVE related things. It is closed now, and EVE stuff has returned to the general discussion forum. Meaning it is now harder for the average goon to find out what is going on at a glance.

With no big enemy, there's no real reason to have it though.

[Alex Clomsaver]

Revitalizing SGBS (general discussion and now also homeland defense) would help goonfleet culture I suppose but it also makes it slightly harder for people to find info about battles beforehand if they only ever check one of the two forums.

[kalissa]

I'm not sure you're right about Triumvirate.

In Tri's first incarnation even though at that time we were militarily at our strongest, there was day to day in-fighting at the very top of the alliance, each and every day there was new bickering over something childish and purile, eventually it got to the point where the poison from all the argueing began working it's way down the line and members from different corps started getting downright hostile to each other, in the end it destroyed the alliance.

In it's 2nd we became too dependant on Twinkey, he was literally doing everything from diplomatic contacts to FC'ing, and literally spending 18+ hours a day on Eve and that couldn't continue, and of course didnt.

So here we are on the 3rd pass, leadership atm (cant predict the future of course) runs very smoothly, all leaders get on well and are long time friends, there are multiple fc's so everything is not dependant on one person which is good for the alliance and also good for the poor bastard it might otherwise fall on. And of course the people who caused the problems in Tri mk1 are not around.

Two things I wanna comment on from the main post though :

1) As for us picking a fight we cannot win, this has been a fight we went into with our eyes wide open, it's not like we have this dilliusion that we can beat the NC, we dont have the desire to run regions, we dont want their space and even if we did we couldnt take it due to the numbers we'd face. So as I said it's not like we're deceiving ourselves on this, the best we can do is hurt the NC and we get a lot of satisfaction from doing it.

2) Cohesion for retreat. Ok, retreat from where? We dont own space we dont have a single sov system in the game, we had a couple of systems for a couple of days until NC's towers killed the sov. The very worst case scenario here is we lose our high ends. What are NC gonna do, camp us into a npc station all day? We'll just go off and play another game, or jump clone out until they leave then come back and piss in their pool as much as we can.

An NC guy said it well (from their forums I believe) excuse me if it's not word perfect but you'll get the idea " Trying to kill Tri is like trying to destroy a lump of clay with a hammer "

(No idea where he got that from, very bizzare)