A better way to put it would be "Don't be larger than you need to be." If you can only hold a small chunk of space with what you have, don't boost your numbers just so you can expand.2) Be larger then you thought you needed to be.
This is also pretty wrong. There are a lot of 0.0 holding groups which have just enough dedicated industry to keep them going, but are mainly PvP. There are also a few groups where a lot of the people aren't dedicated to either PvP or PvE, and will do one or the other as they please.3) The mixed blend. You can't really be a 100% PVP alliance and expect to hold any part of 0.0, and you also can't even hope to hold anything if your 100% Industry. You need a mix and it's higher then you'll believe, Probably slow to 40% industry and 60% PVP....A good alliance and good corp for that matter has an Industry arm and a PVP arm....Put simply you need some sort of ISK generator one large enough to feed your corp or alliance, and that means Industrialists.
No alliance would get anywhere if the only co-ordination between corps was what systems to attack.4) Separation of Alliance and Corp. Each Corp should be able to act on their own, do their own thing, Alliance objectives should be small and simple, take this system and this system only. Defend this one, pay the alliance bill. No alliance should be directing what the PVPers and Industrialists do at the corp level. Have alliance ops and so forth but don't make it a singular task. Everyone plays to have fun, so an alliance telling everyone what to do is not fun. This goes alone with the #1 and #2, with both those in effect an alliance should be able to expand slowly and defend it's space.
That's just plain retarded.5) Support Network, Align with other near by Alliances rather then seeing them as a threat. It's in both Alliances interests to not fight each other. The first step is if both alliances have multiple outposts gift each other in each persons space the Outpost.
PL works because it's large and has multiple alliances under it's roof. I'll bring up AXE again because that's almost what I described above.
A small alliance, heavy PVP, made up of people who only know each because of the alliance. They have no real home, so no real infrastructure for finance either. Its run by a person who demands everyone to go everywhere and shoot at whoever he gets his orders from.
In a way it's as big as AXE will ever get, it's been stagnant now for two years, I know because I was in it for at least a year, two years ago and nothing has changed.
I guess the five Virtues can be narrowed down to something really simple.
1) Able to work together.
2) Able to grow.
3) Able to defend itself.
4) Able to supply itself.
5) Able to adapt.
Axe is missing two of those, able to grow and able to supply itself. Goon has all of those, So did Bob, Smash and Roadkill didn't have it all, they where unable to defend themselves too many care bears, Red has those, but is waving on able to adapt and grow (It's been pretty stagnant too). Razor has all of those, but hasn't gone anywhere for a while so it's unable to grow.
An alliance is like a Pizza, you have 1000 members all wanting a slice, but each member wants it their way. The leadership can just keep kicking corps out that want it their way. Just be careful though, inter-corp relationships plays just as big of a role as alliance to corp relationship. Smash failed overnight because one corp that a lot of people liked had enough and quiet. Dragging other corps out of Smash as well. That ended them and they sit on Roadkills coat tails until the end.
6) Not treating allies like shit.
Smashkill was only really lacking diplomatically, other than that they were growing, supplying themselves and gaining servile feeder alliances (although by the time the invasions tarted SMASH itself was basically a R0adkill feeder.)
Badges of Honor: Three probations, one reversed.
Despo is a funny guy .
despot pretty much described the lame way to get into 0.0. Numbers, blobs, naps, homo intercourse, etc. It would be a lame alliance, kinda what IRC/ED are nowadays(sorry I just hate them). I'll never accept being in an alliance like that again. I saw how it works, and I don't want to be a part of it again.
Smash' pets didn't feed Smash. I mean, the fees were so low that at 1moment there was 1 miner paying for 600people. And getting 5people in smash gangs every night pretty much guaranteed that you'd stop paying rent in 1month. Of all smashkill I think Atlas was doing the best job although I never understood why and how they did it.Smashkill was only really lacking diplomatically, other than that they were growing, supplying themselves and gaining servile feeder alliances (although by the time the invasions tarted SMASH itself was basically a R0adkill feeder.)
Rotor - While it's not ideal it still works. While Alliances like PL and Goon are made up on greifers and pirates. Not everyone plays that way. You got to admit that empire has far more population then 0.0, even though 0.0 is much larger.
This would indicate that a majority of EVE population are..
2) PVE players
The people that play this game for those three thing either don't like greifing or don't like to attack others just because they can.
Imagine the entire population of Carebears and PVEs all of a sudden growing some balls and getting in their best combat ships and heading out to 0.0 to claim some space!
An entire constellation, 23/7 systems with 300 pilots in it each system, all defending their constellation, Each system having a outpost and every moon in those system taken by a large death star POS. A literal group of people with no alliance or ties to each other but live in harmony.
How difficult would that be to take..
Would that happen HELL NO! <------ Read this line for people who are going to comment "An alliance of carebears or PVES THAT MAKES THE PERFECT ALLIANCE..."
Here I'll say it again....
Would that happen ---> HELL NO <----
Now that I've made it blatantly clear for the nubs out there not reading what I'm saying.
They'd have lots of issue on themselves.
1) Resources - The belts in and around the constellation would be empty.
2) Belt claiming going on all over the place for ratting..
3) No office space, although I'd love to own the outposts I'd charge 1b a month for office rental and it would get paid.
4) Lack of organization for inbound pirates and other alliances. Sure they'd come together when there is a serious threat but the average roaming fleet of pirates and greifers would have a free for all, at least for a little while.
None the less 12 systems (Large constellation) all with no new POS moon spots, each with an outpost and each with 200-400 pilots in it would be a difficult task for any alliance to come in. Would be fun as hell because the death ratio would be Carebears 2, Attacking alliance 200 in the first hour. As time goes on the numbers would eventually get the attacking alliance down.
Just look back at factional warfare. The established corps raped the newbies over and over again to the point where they eventually got bored and left. Coordinated PvP alliances who worked together and knew the ins and outs of POS warfare would walk all over the carebears guaranteed. As a mini-example, look at PL vs. BRUCE. BRUCE were actually better than what you're suggesting, too.
The single most important thing a successful alliance needs is fighting. It's members have to have FOUGHT for their space, it's an offshoot of the whole "shared identity" thing. Pets, renters, and groups who just found an empty chunk of space to move into never fight as hard as an alliance of people who had to endure a pos war to move in.
SMASHkill was a good example of this. What happened when we attacked them? Sure there were fights, but for the most part their membership were content to run missions in empire. Their space was essentially empty because few wanted it badly enough to really fight for it.
BRUCE on the other hand is a good example of how to fail despite having all of the odds in your favor. Numbers, ability to fight, plenty of allies. And what happened? They bailed on the war, leaving former allies annoyed, former enemies temporarily relieved, and in the end BRUCE was standing alone surrounded by those who would destroy them.
You say that but at the same time Smash and R0adkill had to fight a three month war against competent enemies to even own Geminate.
Badges of Honor: Three probations, one reversed.
Virtue: Virtue defined by dictionary.com refers to the conduct of moral and ethical principals....so ill stick to that facet of this discussion. However, it should go without saying that in the EVE environment you should be pvp strong and long play the game.....along with these virtues any organization should be able to aspire to greatness.
The virtues of an alliance in some ways should mimmick that of any organization existing where people come together to accomplish shared goals. The virtues should be part of its entire culture and come from the top of the organization and be part of what the group stands for and how they define themselves. Virtues can't just be written but a common practice by all. So here are 5 virtues that will lead you to greatness...
1. Inspire a shared vision - all the members should be knowledgable and on board about the direction the group is headed. It should be reflective of what the group wants. It is imperative the leadership stay tuned to their membership to know what it is the membership's wants and needs are to make this vision what it is.
2. Modeling the Way - This begins with its leadership and all those within the organization should have a clear path they are attempting to achieve and all the membership should be aspiring to the direction of its leadership and each other. Lead by example is a common phase associated with this.
3. Enabling others to Act - Each member..no matter how low on the organization chart should feel they are in some way a clog in this big machine you call an alliance. They need to be part of the formula of success you as a team are attempting to achieve. The alliance should also attempt to get as many involved without compromising the security of the group. Every members counts!
4. Challenge the Norm - The organization should aspire to dreams above that of the norm. A vision of the future should be of a bright and prosperous future for all to strive too. This should be high dreams but attainable goals that take time and effort and every member should have a general idea of this future.
5. Encourage the Heart - The membership should get regular encouragement from the leadership...not just direction but they should in some ways know that the leadership needs each and everyone of them on this great journey they are taking. "Every member counts"...this should be sincere from the leadership and all those within the group....even that lonely miner is needed to accomplish this momumentual task and should be reminded of it.
With these virtues, you are on your first steps to something great.
200+ care bears in every system for 12 systems 23/7, care bears that have loads of ISK, lots of resources because they've mined everything dry, and every moon is a death star.
I think in the end the attacking alliance would be overcome with sheer numbers. Even if they managed to get a Moon for a POS deployment which would take at least 2 days of constantly being attacked by hoards of T1 cruisers.
Even if the alliance slow boated it in, like took gates, guarded their exit, bubbled everything around them. It would still be a monumentous task just to get a foot hold. Then to maintain and defend that foot hold 23/7 while you take out enough POSes to attack the outpost. And that's just 1 of the 12 systems they hold in exactly the same manner.
Brought to life that would be some damn fun fighting and KBs all over the place would be lighting up with heaps of kills. I just think in the end the care bears would win out as they have more local resources, deeper pockets, larger numbers, and endless global playing time.
Remember I'm not talking about a few hundred or thousand people, I'm talking about EVERY care bear, and PVEer in empire all consolidated into one constellation. That's probably over 150,000 players.
Realized you'd need a region to have the game even playable, so it's upgraded from Constellation to Region.
Having carebears invade a constalation is kinda pointless. They would have the numerical power but lack any incentive to do so.
Why? Whats in it for them?
0.0 territory warfare is all about resource control. Few 0.0 alliances share the moon wealth. A carebear group would never work out a fair way to share moon wealth - after all, the person using the POS's would keep the isk to themselves and use the carebears as cannon fodder in space. You think someone is going to mine and rat when they can make easy isk by running a POS moon network?
It is far easier setting up a carebear alliance and getting the grunts to be your cannon fodder while you rake in the isk.
That's the problem, they wouldn't. I can't imagine a group of care bears large enough to even want to go out and hold a system let along a constellation or even a region.
But In this magical target rich universe where care bears have balls, and their objective was to actually hold the space, I think their numbers would eventually come out on top.
Even with Titans at the attacking alliances beck and call, you'd need to get an Titan in there in the first place. I don't know, I just wouldn't want to bet on the attacking alliance for actually pulling out a victory in these conditions. However I also wouldn't bet on the Care bears holding the space for any length of time to be note worthy.
How can you lay odds on something so impractical and unlikely? Even if the carebears were put in that sort of position, somebody like PL could grief them out of that space in a very short amount of time anyway. Carebears simply don't have the right attitude to hold 0.0 space, so to say "suppose they did this and this and this" is essentially pointless because they'll never do it.
One can dream can't they? I would love to see a group of care bears hold space against such odds.
I'm fairly sure we were all discussing 0.0 alliances, and I'm fairly sure that was understood. After all, your first post in this thread was discussing such things as outposts, something only 0.0 alliances mess around with.
So while I'm ready to admit that empire has a much larger population than 0.0, I'm not going to say that the only people in 0.0 who like to PvP are PL and Goonswarm.
Edit: Somehow missed that there was another page. Point still stands though.
Carebears ALREADY have in the past and currently are owning 0.0 space. They just run a scam corp/alliance and roll in the moon isk while recruiting like mad to take on cannon fodder. Some are so greedy that they use their corp members to manage POS's while they take naked baths in reactions.
We have seen enough Hydra/PURE/ASCn style alliances and never has one ever succeded. Always alliance assets go to the leaders and never the grunts. Serves the grunts right for being such morons.
Perfect example of super carebears running space was F-T or whatever that Alliance Kell Amarr ran in 0.0 for months. The "honest" Kell later admitted the whole alliance was a scam and mining ops and corp ops mostly went into his pocket.
Alas - carebear alliances DO WORK - just not in the way that would benifit people outside the fraudulent layer.
Carebears have isk, they do, but make a carebear lose 600m in one night and he'll go back to empire in 5minutes. Doomsday him three times in one day and he won't come to 0.0 again. Keep him camped, blueball him, grief him with a sniper fleet, etc. It takes a special kind of eve player to accept large 0.0 warfare and the carebears just can't do it.
You think carebears can keep 0.0 space on their own? Numbers are meh with the new servers(who would've imagined 1400people in a system 1 year ago?), and alliance like PL showed it's not all about numbers.
Carebears can't fit ships, they don't have FCs. They don't have capital pilots. They don't fly much t2 and their knowledge of game mechanics is limited at best.
Also, I'll stop because this is pointless. I don't understand you despot, the way you see successful alliances is very, very queer imo.
When it comes down to it, 0.0 space isn't worthwhile to own unless you're one of the few getting highend moons. Combine that with the giant powerblocs that squish anyone new, and 0.0 ends up relatively empty and stagnant. Look at the east right now-Tenefiris, Detorid, and Wicked Creek are effectively empty, aren't wanted by anyone, yet no one is taking them. Partly because of the lack of desire to take them, but also because when a new group comes in, like in WC, they get squashed by the nearby folks.
0.0's been the same corps/people for a damn long time, was BRUCE the last new group to show up? They died a year ago and haven't been replaced afaik.
Since you seem to think everything is wrong, I've said that "It's not going to happen..." Well done..
Everyone here is either a greifers or a pirate by the looks of it. Unwilling to admit that a massive group of care bears could possibly hold space for a month. That is not wrong to think that 150,000 care bears could hold onto some space, even against the most organized alliance.
While it hasn't happened and while it may never happen that doesn't stop the idea that if it did happen, it would be a force to be wary of.
NRDS space does exist in EVE, and like someone pointed out above what I described was NRDS. An extreme version of it but none the less it is NRDS.
And if wishes were horses, I'd open a glue factory. Your happy little collection of what ifs have no bearing in reality, so it's rather difficult to argue about them.
If you haven't got the point then I guess it's lost, and you'll never understand.
An alliance doesn't need to be a group of pirates and griefers. I'm saying an alliance can be formed around neutral good standing and a gay love fest!. It doesn't need to be destructive, because the same things that make up an alliance that is nothing but greifers and pirates makes up the exact same virtues as an alliance made up of good guys and care bears.
On page three I narrowed down the five things to..
1) Able to work together.
2) Able to grow.
3) Able to defend itself.
4) Able to supply itself.
5) Able to adapt.
Someone pointed out "6) Don't piss off your allies"
In a "Play nice" alliance 6 wouldn't happen anyway, in a "screw you" type alliance 6 is bound to happen, I mean come on if you screw your allies you're just asking for trouble.
Anyone that doesn't agree the 5 points are virtues that would make every alliance is just wrong. It doesn't matter if you're good, bad, or ugly, without all of these five things you're alliance is bound to failure.
I challenge anyone to come up with 5 points that are different to these and would make a successful long term alliance. Five completely different points... let see em... Anyone?
Despotism, you do realize your 5 virtues have nothing in common with the rest of your posts?
NRDS space does exist. However, the most well-known (only?) example I'm aware of is CVA space. Yes, there are lots of carebears and miners there. However, if CVA itself weren't (as I understand it) competent PvPers with good diplomats, and Providence not a horrible piece of space that has been turned into some sort of Nightmare Mode for POS warfare with 30+ stations, then those carebears and miners would not be able to survive.
Krall Amarr's alliance is a good example in point of carebears running the show. Just sit back and relax while pocketing the corp mining ops & moon resorices. Even Krall admited this, and his logs are in the kuguts forum. Sometimes people can run a alliance within a alliance, like Goodfellas who took on 15 corps with no intention of looking after them, since they were a buffer (cannon fodder) in order to capture and hold rich moons.
Carebears are nothing but slaves and will be happy to work like the cowards they are.
Industry players, are compleatly different - they know industry and how to make it work. These guys are like the slave masters whipping the unwashed carebears into corp ops etc.
Industry Player != Carebear player.
A Carebear player is a timewaster who thinks he is industry but is really not. Only good or cannon fodder and slave labour.
Guys guys a massive group of carebears could hold space and kick ass if they stopped being carebears and turned into organised effective PvPers!
Well no shit.