[spoiler= -A- Dude on SuperCaps][quote=midi2304][COLOR=#333333]Maybe if team tech knew how to use supers properly they wouldn't be taking yards of mittani cock all over the north at the moment?[/COLOR][/quote][/spoiler]
Yeah, and then there's the bulk of your roams where you do 100+ jumps and kill 5 duders who were unlucky enough to jump into your gang unscouted.
For us at least the medscale GF/hours roamed ratio has been abysmal the last few months. No wonder FCs play LoL instead, because there its push butan and get guaranteed PvP instead of some slim chance of half-decent engagement.
No idea how delayed local is supposed to help that. Bears are still easily catchable w/ some effort and for dumpstering uncoordinated kitchen-sink fleets while outnumbered just go to EC-P8R like Hydra does.
First, in nullsec "Local" should only have a number of ships in space. In Sovereign space, you should be able to buy an IHUB upgrade to provide, to the sovereign alliance only upgrades to Local - from number of ships to Local like in empire. If there were actual treaties and pacts, that data could be available to coalition members who are in the treaty/pact. In NPC nullsec names would only show up if the ships are docked. This allows a couple things
This doesn't totally screw up nullsec play:
- In sovereign nullsec it provides a baseline of intel (how many people are in a given system when you jump in), but detailed intel only to the sov spaceholders if they choose to buy the iHub upgrade.
- In NPC null, it gives you an idea of how many folks are in a system, and if they are in space or in station. Maybe in NPC space the owning faction could be payed off (with LP, of course) to provide full local to anyone who wants it, on a monthly basis.
- The cute color tags are fine with the numbering system - as long as it's standings only (blue/lt blue/none/orange/red) because you would know how many neutrals or reds in system, but that's it unless you are the sov holder or you've paid off the locals.
- It would also give roaming gangs an immediate update (in NPC space anyway) about whether everyone is docked, or if there are ships in space.
So what's wrong with that?
- Roaming gangs get enough intel to try and hunt or move on quickly in NPC null or their own space.
- Sovereignty upgrades that actually "improve" the space for everyone.
- LP sinks for NPC nullsec.
My alliance pays out almost 20 billion a month in sov bills and we're cheap. Goons who run a single region + maintain a complex jump bridge network are paying out something retarded like 60b. It has it's benefits, but if you keep adding more without having ways to offset these costs you'll have more disgruntled sov holding entities.
Keep taking the benefits of holding sov and we'll just have a fuck ton of PL's running around. Keep adding work and effort to generate isk just to stay afloat, and you'll lose the leadership who works their asses off to maintain the alliances. This will result in a fuck ton of pilots without guidance, goals and focus. EVE will eventually ~die~.
You have to keep the balance of null sec being somewhat livable. No, it shouldn't be safe, yes... it should have risks. However, if you make it completely unlivable and implement things that make it un-fun to hold, you will lose interest.
I don't understand people that want to nerf local in nullsec into the ground. Yeah it's stupid that the locals have 99% chance to get out if they are paying attention but the moment this changes to 90% no one will rat in nullsec anymore. The only reason I rat in nullsec right now is because I am close to our staging system, it's not like you can't make the same isk easily in high sec.
I think people focus too much on the dead ratting systems in some regions that are visited once a month but systems in Fade and Pure Blind have gangs coming trough all the time. It wouldn't be possible to rat there so people would just move out and the gangs would stop coming. The only thing this does is create more dead regions. One guy logged of in system xxx, well we can't rat there anymore.
The only way i see this working is if nullsec is buffed and high sec nerfed into the ground. A balance of 1isk/xxx in high to 2 in low and 4 in null and wh.
Let me submit for consideration the idea that roaming "sucks" in 0.0 not because of local chat preventing people from undocking, but because there is nothing compelling smaller than a moon to *fight over* in that space, and because the "fighting" is best done by hiding and going AFK.
1. Want to get a roaming solo guy to go away? Ratters just POS up and go AFK or change systems. You can't be harmed.
2. Want to disrupt ratting in a system? Just cloak up and go AFK all day -- they can't fight back unless they happen to bait you during the 1 hour per day that you're at your keyboard.
3. Want to get the roaming gang shitting up your space to fuck off but don't have enough people to fight? Just dock up -- you won't lose anything from not fighting.
I could go on but this is the basic gist of things as they stand. Note that #1 and #2 are evil twin inverses of one another and that the *best solution for both party* is still to go AFK rather than fight. It is stupid, and this happens solely because nothing is worth fighting over except moons. (The sole exception here might be "the ability to undock in a staging system" which we regularly fight over in VFK or whatever, but still small change in comparison to a moon.)
What the game needs is objectives that are worth bringing a small gang to try to claim and worth undocking a fleet to defend. The infrastructure hub in each system would be a perfect target for this if a small gang could try to "disrupt" it using hacking modules and field control. For example, what if all ratting bounties were not awarded immediately, but instead collected by the ihub for "CONCORD verification" during a specific time period each day. If a gang rolls up and disrupts the ihub during that time, they can claim the entire package of ratting bounties for the past 23 hours. Presto -- instant incentive for the owners to undock and actually play EVE online rather than just safing up all of their [s]bots[/s] enthusiastic ratters until the bad guys go away.
There are a billion things I could think of and I know I've suggested ihub-related shit before so I won't go on and on -- but this is what the game needs, not the removal of local, which would just turn nullsec into a wasteland and further promote an already-unfairly-advantaged highsec in terms of ISKmaking opportunities.
The problem is that those mechanics break when there's just not anyone around to defend at that hour, and there just aren't anywhere near enough unique nullsec inhabitants to fill all space in all timezones.
"Every rifter counts friend" - VR
I do think wormhole style local in Null is a bit too far but a time lag (maybe longer the lower truesec is?) would be a good idea. The incoming party needs to experience the delay as well.
Fill the new space with good moons and a higher chance of complexes spawning and jews like me will come.
And for the love of god, don't make it so we have to go 30 brazillian jumps to get there! Part of why some of the space is so underutilized has to do with how far you have to go to get there.
The reason there are less people to fight in null sec and when you jump into local they warp off is that you have the intelligent people (for the most part) left. In my opinion we need to make it more inviting and easier for typical empire bears to be attracted to null space, this will create targets it will then give a reason to roam space.
no, we need bigger disincentives to capture and live in nullsec space.
this is the only way a plucky new alliance is going to bother tangling with powerblocs like the CFC is if they can't even defend or rat in their space due to lack of local and no real rewards for doing so compared to highsec or wormhole space.
What he's saying is that the average nullsec resident is too smart to be easily ganked by roaming gangs. Make nullsec *apparently* easier to get into and there will be more idiots to "PvP" with or at least people to shoot, which is a start. This is why I am HUGELY, HUGELY pro-local in its current form -- it gives people the illusion of safety and a "floor" of intel level that makes people comfortable with "doing stuff" in nullsec. Now, maybe those people need to be easier to catch or shoot, but:
a) removing local isn't the way to do that, it would just force people into highsec incursion or wormholes depending on their tastes and
b) the cfc's killboards do demonstrate that there are a lot of idiots living in nullsec still who are really easy to kill despite Sec's talk about how impossible it is to catch a ratter
Anyway, I would be very much in favor of ~gameplay mechanics~ that would make it easier to catch ratters and especially to catch bots but I can't think of any cogent ideas off the top of my head. The stuff about local is dumb though; people don't realize how much of a core gameplay mechanic the local channel is and how much the game would change if it were altered.
I love the "we spent two hours roaming 50 jumps and only killed 2 ratters" comments when combined with a call to remove local, since local acts just as much as a tool for finding targets as it does for spotting incoming gankers. The end result of losing it would be that you still spend 2 hours roaming, but only made it through 25 jumps because you had to stop and scan every system for targets rather than just 'ok, nobody in here guys, jump through and warp to the next gate' (not to mention the empty drakes left abandoned in every POS to fuck over the d-scanners), only to find that you skill get fuck all for kills because most of the would-be targets have fucked off beck to L4s and highsec incursions anyway.
Seems that what these guys really mean is that local should be removed for everyone else but not themselves.
"Meaningful Small gang PvP" and fortified space empires don't mix, all you can have is farms and fields to burn in a hit-and-run fashion, as any meaningful objective will be defended/attacked with any warm body available, and no matter the mechanic you add to try and change that, having more people will always be an advantage (even if you instance the objectives), having reinforcements ready will turn the battle into one of atrition... one where the blob has the advantage. If you are the vietcong, you don't charge head-on into american bases with your plucky band of armed peasants, you hide in the forest where the imperialist pigs' army can't find you with ease and strike when the opportunity arises (yes, a real-life analogy, fuck you).
If you want to have a place for small entities, you need to give them a place to hide. Guerrilla warfare is the only game where small armies beat huge ones, and that requires stealth, stealth that is impossible with nullsec's local mechanics regardless of any 30 seconds delay you might add; NPC null is not an option for guerrilla warfare, as any small entity basing off there will be on plain sight and immediatly camped into a station. If you remove local, you'll be removing the nullbears that you need to keep those regions alive, so leave nullsec as the place for huge armies with easy local intel and add more space with mechanics between a wormhole and nullsec, where small entities can actually hide to strike huge empires.
If CCP gives nullsec some kind of farm that average members can care about (POCOS are shit because fuck PI and their HP, but they are a step in the right direction), those small entities coming from the new space can burn them on and on untill the average member of space empire 1245 says fuck it and forms a fleet to try and hunt them out, or says fuck it and moves somewhere else, effectively collapsing space empire 1245. Give those farms a chance to drop loot (say, anchorable factories that at once boost nullsec manufacturing and provide said farms) and you've got yourself raiding parties with something to gain.
People won't patrol the space to defend it if you give them a mediocre local, they'll just pos up when the first report of a gank comes to the intel channels. You'll be effectively making nullsec a d-scan-based nighmare to live in in exchange for a few ganks with no opposition... if that's the PvP you want, you may as well go gank miners in highsec.
"Every rifter counts friend" - VR
a) First, I don't want to remove local, you stupid fuck. Re-read what I've been saying about delays. Short ones, at that.
b) The average guy in null is too smart to be ganked while ratting, remember?
c) I also said it would never happen, so you're getting all dumbfuckered over nothing.
Kids, kids, calm down.
"Every rifter counts friend" - VR
The problem with local is that it gives too much good intel without any effort. There is no better intel tool in the game apart from someone in another fleet giving you up to the minute updates of what the fleet comp is, where and when it is moving. My biggest problem is that it removes a necessary role of recon from the game in trade for hopping into the next system to take a gander at the local channel.
W-space like Local is exactly what I'd like to see but I also realize that the current tools in game to supplement the loss of the intel from Local would need some major overhaul before we get to that state. I've been to W-space many times and mashing the d-scan is no fun and downright retarded.
I have to agree with that 100%
People who live in 0.0 are not retards for the most part and know when to leave a belt and get safe when a neutral enters local, not to mention when you have populated space where every enemy movement is followed in internal intel channels, so when you get 2-3 jumps into roaming territory people already know what ship your in how many of what you have and who is the scout both fore and rear.
There is nothing you can do, no patch you can envision that will make smart people not wanting to throw their spaceship into your jaws needlessly do so.
Basically, for small gang warfare, null sec is turning into low sec. Dominion got one thing correct and it was the havens and sanctums in every system. When they changed this, they fucked the roaming gangs because now, with everyone centralized in the low security systems, my alliance knows exactly where the gangs go and how to defend. We've found it easier to catch black ops because we know where/who they're gonna hit. This change was a nerf to pvp and pve when they took them away. They focused where the pvp happens making defending easier so droppin' bitches is harder. At the same time, they took income away from grunts, then introduced incursions and there was a mass exodus to empire. Getting those dudes back into null sec, spread around and into their 'safe corner' of null sec will be what gets you your ganks and ratter kills.
You need to make the mechanics support having pilots in null sec and inviting. Then, leave it to the players to make it dangerous/risky or, to defend and make it safe. If you ask me, this far into the future and with the advanced tech, there should be an early warning system in game that tells me and blows up my radar letting me know that bad dudes have entered my radar. However, local is subtle and for those who don't pay attention, it's easily missed.
From the opposite perspective, when I'm out roaming, when I jump into a system, I should have an instant notification of some sort that informs me of how many hostiles/friendlies at a glance. I think that d-scan is retarded and should function automatically. When I open a solar system map and do a d'scan, the 'cone' and direction of said d-scan should show my results.
Even better... I'd like to have the ability to put my probes through a gate before entering a system.
Ah. It's the "remove local" time of year again.
The last time I discussed this on eve-o, I was called a carebear because I wanted to incentivize people into leaving hisec for nullsec riches, when all I wanted was exactly what f.ex Zagdul is saying, i.e. make more dumb people inhabit nullsec instead of trying to skew the balance more in favor of the roaming gangs. All you'll end up doing then is make it even more attractive to just do your isk-making in hisec, it solves nothing and it degrades nullsec even further for the roaming gang guys.
But I'm sure a lot of roaming gang guys don't see this logic, all they probably see is "wah let me keep my ~perfect intel~ so I can rat in ~perfect safety~" or something, I dunno.
I don't think anyone here is seriously advocating removing local in 0.0 and making it like W-space.
But a middle ground like no local standings could help a great deal.
Thing is, though, while those who roam bitch and moan and whine about how local is overpowered or how it's ~perfect safety~ in nullsec, I'm sitting in jita 4-4, and within in a few weeks I'll have gone from having enough isk to pimpfit a supercarrier, to be able to afford a titan, and I don't even have to undock for that. Or I can run around in incursions, L4s etc and, unless I'm dumb and pimpfit a machariael or whatever, never get popped.
What incentives are there to get me into nullsec again?
Edit: Err, I should specify that question as why should I go into nullsec to make money.
It brought a fuck-ton of people to null sec. I remember running hot drop gangs and catching dudes almost once an hour. We could sit in a constellation for an hour and be hunting 3-4 targets and at a minimum have a chance to drop on at least 2 of them.
I check our space, we've got some dumb dudes and I watch how they play. They've gotten smart.
This is assuming that VLV is any good, but... Virtual Life Vanguard decided to sit in our home system of L-C and camp our ratters for about 2 months straight. Their cyno chars were spread out across the region. They caught a few barges, maybe a hauler or two. But we killed more than them then they did of us. Of course they won the isk war as bombers and an occasional recon can't keep up with a single tengu.
The point is, those fuckers were bored. They had 1-2 systems in a constellation they could camp. If you remove local, as you suggest, sure that team of VLV bads can get kill after kill. But, you'll chase the rest of those potential targets they currently have out in the process. They won't want to live in that kind of environment either.
The tears and fun for the dudes going for fights will last a month while we have a second exodus to empire.
Then, what will you have left?
Even so, I don't think removing it would be all that bad. WH people manage just fine, because they work together and are willing to take risks; they even do this in systems in which gates, well WHs, can spawn in their system anywhere at anytime, with hostiles looking to gank them on the other side.
Wormholes are terrible counterarguments for self-obvious reasons; living in them is shitty enough (between logistics and d-scan mashing) that the population is heavily limited, and the income generated between PvP occurrences is so great that the WH guys loudly exclaim their biggest hassle is moving their replacement pimpships into the hole. In null there's no way in hell you're paying to replace a Tengu in the hour or two between gangs coming through; it's a no-brainer that risk-adversity is going to rule the day.
You would not see any standings in the local chat channel - everyone would appear neutral. To clarify, only people in the chat channel would appear neutral -- people on the overview would have their red/blue standings shown as it is today. To know someone is actually friendly or hostile, you would have to know the character, see them in space, or right click the character's bio to see alliance/corp/personal standings.
When local is relatively small (< 15) nothing really changes. However for larger system numbers, it introduces an element of chaos of not knowing how many friendlies or hostiles are in system. Not only does this make roaming better, as you can easily slip by unnoticed into large systems, but fleet warfare also becomes more uncertain and tactical. Scouts would actually have to scout. Empire is also more dangerous if you're at war.
There are ways to game the no-standings system, such as adding people as contacts or using portrait caches - but both are relatively cumbersome and ineffective. Contact numbers are limited now, and CCP can stamp its foot against portrait cache standings (it's also pretty ineffective).
Yes because it is so brave to drive your ratting/plexing ship into 20 man roaming fleet, or better yet you should attack them in your Hulk, that will show your bravery and prove your not an idiot.
I dont see why when neutrals come into local you getting safe in your isk making asset is cowardly, seems pretty dam smart to me.
There's too many dudes out there so scared of dying outside of fleetfights they'll rather hide out in a POS/safespot 'til local is completly clear rather than get into a PvP ship and battle shit out. That, to me at least, make them cowards.
You can't follow somebody without being seen in the vastness of space.
You can't move fleets without it being known every single move you do.
You can't have any surprises in fleet combat, no hidden cards to throw on the table because 1 million sp alts have scouted it all safely from a safe spot in local hours before hand.
You cant have any surprise engagements at all, period, everything is plainly on the table.
Yea, I'd say that none of that could be fixed by fiddling with Local, yet Zagdul keeps going on about how being a risk averse cunt is supposed to make everything ok and totally validate the reason why such a broken mechanic works. Hunters are supposed to just deal with it but if a fucking sign went up game wide every time somebody started ratting on the ingame map it wouldn't be.....oh wait, it wouldn't matter if you did that anyway because the second anybody entered local they'd just fucking safe up anyway.
The fundamental disconnect here is that ratters, ratters who don't bot so they can't get awoxed, and those that actively sit at their computer, are 100% safe, there is literally no chance they get caught unless they move systems. People like MpozoY and Zagdul see this as something thats working as intended, because of course in 0.0 you should be completely safe while you jew.....
And there grath goes again, focusing on how ~completely safe~ it is (it isn't vOv), instead of trying to think of how he can get more dumb fucks into nullsec so there are more people who will fuck up. That is, unless he wants those people to stay in hisec and do missions or incursions instead, which'll be a huge boon to their roams. At least there won't be people jewing in ~complete safety~ in nullsec, right?
We're talking about seatbelt laws and you're trying to add in something about Anti Lock Breaks to the law. Regardless of your relation to it getting more people into 0.0 has nothing to do with how completely broken the intel feed 0.0 local gives you is.
And getting more cowards into nullsec where they learn the secret of how never ever to get caught while PvEing (just keep an eye on local), won't really make anything better. I'm not saying shit should be easy mode for roamers, but the only way you'll ever get caught ratting is if you're afk, half sleeping or complety retarted. At least making it so you won't appear in local until you decloak from jump-in will give the hunter half a chance to catch someone actually watching their screen once in a while, as the ratter won't have a 30+ seconds before he even needs to start aligning. He'll stand a decent chance of figuring out where somone is before declaoking, but once he decloaks and warps there's still time for the ratter to warp off if he's on the ball.
I like the idea of removing local, or giving it a delay of like 2-5 minutes, but I understand why it would upset a lot of people.
No no john you don't understand, they went through the harrowing trials of taking (being given) their space they should just BE safe now don't you see.
It is kind of sad that blops and titan drops are pretty much the closest thing to surprise buttseks in nullsec.
Even if there were no local, it isn't hard to scout a gate.
yea, and even the surprise is really taken out of those.
I, for example, frequently spent my early days in nullsec with stargate sg1 on one monitor and EVE on the other, while I mined or ratted. That created quite a few "oh fuck" situations because it took anywhere between 0 and 20 seconds (or more) before I noticed them. Mining and ratting is boring, keeping vigilent for hours on end while doing something boring is hard. It will catch someone out.
This local free, small gang pvp nirvana is already in the game. Why don't you guys just go there when you want to hunt ratters with a couple dudes?
Local is too powerfull as an intel tool but nerfing it won't make nullsec a better place to roam in, unless ccp hits the sweet spot, where someone paying full attention always gets out but the chance to catch others is increased. I don't think ccp will be able to pull it of but who knows?
It's not like they created a spaceship game where half of the ships is useless, right?
It's no different than the smaller, faster gang who runs away from the larger slower one. My one ratting ship should have a chance to get out if I'm paying attention and faster than my enemy.
The problem isn't the game or it's mechanics here, the problem is that it's up to you to make null sec dangerous and you are asking for game mechanics to make it easier for you to make it dangerous.
I'm telling you that there are a lot of really dumb people who don't warp of, who fall for the e-zmode login trap and fail miserably at playing this game.
I am liking the idea that dudes don't show up in local till decloak.
oh, and drop probes while cloaked...
All these talks about removing local and all these talks about not removing local
why don't you just have local work on a distance type of thing, i.e. if a ship is in the space of 10au he appears in local chat or if he talks