BNC/BOB: Hege's Titan - The Other Side of The Story

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Xrak
2008-06-14, 00:45

For anyone that wasnt in IRC at the time, here is the other side of the story, I've taken out most of the crap. Important line in bold.

(05:17:51) (@Coranor) do i need to tell the whole hege story now?
(05:18:22) (@Coranor) well
(05:18:29) (@Coranor) there once was a man from canada
(05:18:38) (@Coranor) he was what we in bnc call old school
(05:19:06) (@Coranor) so he basically did whatever the fuck he wanted because he was let do whatever the fuck he wanted
(05:19:49) (@Coranor) as an old school member he ran our 10/10 plex for 2 years
(05:20:05) (@Astasia) (every day, without fail)
(05:20:09) (@Astasia) was highly reliable!
(05:20:33) (@Coranor) and we got a handful of hardeners and use of some bpo's which we could have bought ourselves if only we had a plex income
(05:22:47) (@Coranor) so we had this guy who had managed to get himself into the position of actually owning most of the corps assets and holding it over our heads so we couldn't boot him no matter how many emo strops he threw and threatened to quit and pretty much take his football and go home
(05:23:23) (@Coranor) round october of last year we started to buy his bpo's out
(05:23:34) (@Coranor) to the tune of around 100 billion
(05:23:47) (@Coranor) forum posts take time
(05:24:04) (@Coranor) and i only woke up to take a pee
(05:24:15) (@Coranor) so keep with me lads
(05:24:20) (@Astasia) was well before october but keep going!
(05:25:06) (@Coranor) anyway we bought out the t2 bpos and he couldn't be arsed with the capital and outpost bpo's
(05:25:47) (@Coranor) so now he wants his titan back so he could "cash out" in his words
(05:26:14) (@Coranor) during my convo with him he managed to refer to the titan in rl monetary terms twice
(05:27:11) (@Coranor) this ofc brings me to tbe conclusion that this little shit who had held his assets over us for years till we finally managed to get him to sell it all, wanted to do one of two things
(05:27:51) (@Coranor) have a titan, that was funded by bnc's 10/10 plex either sit in lo sec or get ebayed/flogged to russians and then isk ebayed
(05:28:11) (@Astasia) http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingamebo...6755&page=1#29
(05:28:13) (+Xrak) (sorry to interupt but everyone's favourite ex-bnc (Yaz) posted on the thread and Ast even got a mention!)
(05:28:16) (@Astasia) yaz says you're a bad ceo
(05:28:22) (+Xrak) !
(05:28:37) (@Coranor) well if yaz says i'm a bad ceo then i must be doing something right
(05:28:44) (@Astasia) anyway
(05:28:46) (@Astasia) if I could just add
(05:28:47) (@Coranor) btw my msn is on fire
(05:28:51) (@Astasia) that 100+ bn we paid him
(05:28:55) (@Coranor) i am the hero of many people
(05:28:55) (+Nick_Curso) haha
(05:28:57) (@Astasia) over the course of like 10 months
(05:29:06) (@Astasia) was 100% from corp operations and my/oku's personal isk
(05:29:09) (@Astasia) and where the fuck is it now
(05:29:23) (@Coranor) probably ebayed
(05:29:31) (@Astasia) according to his buddy l cross (who I ofc had executed on the night of long thanatoses)
(05:29:36) (@Astasia) he "convered it to rl cash"
(05:29:39) (@Astasia) *converted
(05:29:56) (@Astasia) so anyway
(05:29:56) (+Xrak) lulz
(05:31:19) (+Nick_Curso) so basically the worst think of all is jke got a free titan.....
(05:31:23) (+Nick_Curso) jake....
(05:31:29) (+Nick_Curso)
(05:31:35) (@Astasia) it's my titan gdi!
(05:31:56) (+Nick_Curso) gl jakes floggin it to goto the bbq
(05:32:06) (@Astasia) lol
(05:32:31) (@Coranor) FUCK THAT
(05:32:35) (+Xrak) I thought he exchanged it
(05:32:39) (+Xrak) Avatar for a corsa
(05:32:47) (+Nick_Curso) nahh
(05:32:53) (+Nick_Curso) vauxhall nova
(05:32:54) (@Coranor) what do you think would happen to him if he arrived at the bbq after flogging our titan?
(05:32:57) (+Nick_Curso) and bbq ticket
(05:33:02) (@Coranor) chucked in the bonfire for sure
(05:33:06) (+Nick_Curso) haha
(05:33:17) (+Nick_Curso) dibs on the ribs
(05:33:54) (+Xrak) the amount he smokes they would probably taste like weed
(05:34:09) (+Nick_Curso) bit like bbqing with willow on the fire
(05:34:35) (+Xrak) idd, everyone get stoned with him on the bonfire
(05:34:58) (+Xrak) so shall I copy pasta this to bnc forum?
(05:35:30) (+Nick_Curso) the bbqing jake part?
(05:35:38) (+Nick_Curso) best not tell him
(05:35:40) (+Xrak) lol no nub
(05:35:47) (+Xrak) the awesome story
(05:37:05) (@Coranor) go for it xrak
(05:37:12) (+Xrak) sharing is caring
(05:37:16) (@Coranor) i'll write up a proper one this afternoon
(05:37:34) (@Astasia) do try and be a little faster
(05:37:40) (@Astasia) so my mailbox doesn't completely overload
(05:37:40) (+The_Government) He sounds just like a guy in my old corp
(05:37:48) (@Coranor) pfft
(05:37:56) (@Coranor) you think your mailbox is gonna overload?
(05:38:05) (@Coranor) wtf do you think mine will be like?
(05:38:14) (+Nick_Curso) im jelous
(05:38:39) (@Coranor) be afraid to log in cause the fucking server blows up loading all the hate mail and love letters and invites to ghsc
(05:38:48) (+The_Government) lol
(05:39:04) (@Coranor) in any case
(05:39:48) (@Coranor) this guy basically cost the corp probably trillions of isk running that plex for two years even with the cost of the titan and stuff
(05:39:52) (@Coranor) so yeah we're keeping it
(05:40:37) (@Coranor) too fucking right he could
(05:40:39) (+The_Government) let alone 120 bil
(05:40:45) (@Coranor) we paid him 110 bill for the bpo's
(05:40:52) (+Nick_Curso) i made 3 bil in the last 4 days u prioud of me
(05:41:05) (@Coranor) that and the size of his wallet beforehand he could probably have bought 10 of them

Xrak
2008-06-14, 00:48

tl:dr - He ran the bnc plex for 2 years and kept the money/loot, so titan is more ours then his anyway.

Astasia Orian
2008-06-14, 01:03

A post will be forthcoming tomorrow. My general flippancy on the subject is due to it having gone on for so long before finally coming to caod (it's like a 2yr story!) and that I'm still rather incredulous about the scale of "cashing out" that took place.

HostageTaker
2008-06-14, 01:12

Yeh, Hege was a 10/10 plex whore machine... I still remember the day when Rev Mitt tried to run it once and Hege fuckin lost his marbles over it... ONCE, one time...

Btw this was the 10/10 serp shipyard that dropped all the nice 64% x-types.... He built a fucking station in that system, hardcore

meh... I'm totally indiff on the whole thing...

Caybn E'vangel
2008-06-14, 02:19

Yeh, Hege was a 10/10 plex whore machine... I still remember the day when Rev Mitt tried to run it once and Hege fuckin lost his marbles over it... ONCE, one time...


Lol, I remember that night, I flew my machariel 25 jumps for nothing. Also, after having reviewed the situation, my opinion is gj for not letting him cash out a BoB titan, which is what it was, period.

Lungorthin
2008-06-14, 03:07

hmm...

It is true on one side that hege was a bit of a primadonna when it came to defending his turf, namely the 7bx complex.
As far as I could tell he dedicated himself to purely money making tasks, but on the other side he did let bnc profit out of the money he made. It was synergy, BNC (BoB) allowed him his private 10/10 plex and to carebear at his hearts content and in return the corp got isks, bpos, etc. I do not know any internal details (if any) about any conditions of usage agreed between bnc and Hege.
In my oppinion the proceeds of the plex were corp assets, but that is just my oppinion I do not know the real agreement if there was any or how the wealth was split (if it was split at all)

This thread shows us one side of the coin, the stance by our leadership towards Hege.
I have learnd the hard way that a coin usually has 2 sides.

So I do not wish to judge in any way, just my comment without knowing all the background facts: If a promise was made to return the Titan then that promise should be kept.


One thing I can say with certainty: Primadonna or not, Hege is an industrial asset to better have on ones side.

Xrak
2008-06-14, 03:14

Probably best to wait for the full proper post before making any assumptions or ideas.

Lord WarATron
2008-06-14, 05:06

Yeah. There are always 2 sides to each story (and probebly the truth afterwards)

But I will wait till I see the full monty before making assumptions.

Pagefault
2008-06-14, 06:54

it was on caod, it must be true!

Blacklight
2008-06-14, 07:12

There are indeed two sides to every story and regardless of what is going on with the Titan, with how someone chooses to end their time in Eve, with people's individual stances on ebaying (or indeed corporate policy regarding it) or any of the other little issues this saga brings to the fore... it would be a shame to see a very long standing member who has contributed a great deal to the corporation over a very long period of time, demonised in order to justify a decision.

Hege may have had an approach to the game that differed from many of the rest of us. He may have had his quirks and at times been difficult to deal with but I remind you all that we all have such quirks and none of us is a saint, there's a great many of you still in the corp (and even in leadership positions) that I've had to "have a little chat with" over the years.

Just remember that we couldn't get a regular group to run complexes for corp profit for love nor fucking money because no-one and I do mean no-one could be arsed to commit to it for literally years. So the issue of Hege running the 7BX plex for so long is not cut and dry, we could not get anyone else to do it. Not only could we not get anyone else to do it regularly but everyone who said they would also wanted to make sure they got a cut for themselves, so do not demonise Hege for profiteering when not a single man jack in the corp was any better by anything other than degree.

Make a decision on how to handle this based on what is best for the corp, make a decision that fits with the corp's philosophy regarding contributions, membership, efforts, ownership of assets, ebaying etc. and if at the end of the day that gives Hege the shaft so be it. However, there is no need to demonise him in the process, there's no need to launch any kind of anti-Hege PR campaign or strike his name from the BNC rosters for ever more and salt the earth of his farm after the greater collective of righteous BNCness has burnt his house, barns and livestock to the ground.

We've pinched the guy's titan that he put literally hundreds of man hours into. Regardless of whether there's good reason for that you can understand him being pissed off.

He's not evil, he's not a bad guy, he didn't shaft the corp, didn't bleed us dry or do anything other than operate as we instructed and/or allowed him. I strongly disagree with anyone ebaying their stuff to cash out but doing so doesn't mean the guy eats babies for breakfast.

Don't look for excuses to do this other than "we wanted that titan and feel we're entitled to it, so we're keeping it". Anything other than that just makes it look like there's guilt to be covered up and if you're confident in your decision to keep the titan then why would their be guilt?

Call a spade a spade and do what you have to but keep things in perspective and do it with some dignity.

Just as a final caveat before someone puts words into my mouth, I'm merely posting to add a little balance, restraint and caution in response to some witch hunting and demonisation I've seen going on. I'm not supporting or criticising the decision to keep the titan - that call is entirely Coranor's to make.

SPUFFofDog
2008-06-14, 09:16

I have plenty of thoughts and opinions with regard to this but one thing is a fact our leaders made a choice. Our leaders, what ever we think they made it so its done.

I really dont see the need to rabble rouse with Hedge, I liked him, so do we really have to taunt and rub salt in an open wound on various forums.

Leadership made a dessision, then end. Just my thoughts.

Dog

slip66
2008-06-14, 09:35

I remeber being told that hedge was very dedicated to running that plex. I kinda assumed that was allways for the corp, 100% profit. Minus any bounties maybe.

tbh I'm glad we payed for many of the bpos etc over time. I wouldn't want to see a BNC titan on E-bay or one sitting in low sec getting kerploded by RA.

Looks like he made more then enough isk off the 10/10 to make up for his time supporting the corp and no longer having the titan.


p.s. you back playing caybn?

Sergeant Spot
2008-06-14, 09:45

Regardless of any very real and truthful reasons for keeping the Titan....

Again...

regardless of any very real and truthful reasons for keeping the Titan....

Did we/BoB promise to return it?

Somuel
2008-06-14, 09:45

I find it hard to have an opinion of someone I've only been aware of, but rarely spoke to (or even seen), since I joined.

Hell, I wasn't even aware he was Canadian. I thought he was Euro.

Lord WarATron
2008-06-14, 11:13

I remeber being told that hedge was very dedicated to running that plex. I kinda assumed that was allways for the corp, 100% profit. Minus any bounties maybe.

tbh I'm glad we payed for many of the bpos etc over time. I wouldn't want to see a BNC titan on E-bay or one sitting in low sec getting kerploded by RA.

Looks like he made more then enough isk off the 10/10 to make up for his time supporting the corp and no longer having the titan.


p.s. you back playing caybn?


I am not a fan of Hedge, barely ever saw him to be honest. But to be fair, a lot of BNC pilots made isk from PvE. Whatever the deal was with hedge running that 10/10, he had it going for years so you cannot blame a player for running a plex that he got the ok on. If there was a problem with him running the plex, then why wait till now, after the event to blame him?

I mean, it would be like me getting a titan from pos mining only to hear someone say a year from now that "He made enough isk off moon mining to make up for this titan we are comadeering etc etc". Its perfectly acceptable to make a deal and change it. But you just cannot change a deal after the event. Even if the guy was going to self destruct it/ebay/give to russian/whatever. However, since we dont know the full story, it could be something compleatly different.

Again i will wait for the full details to come though because nothing is ever what it seems.

DoctorGonzo
2008-06-14, 11:37

Regardless of any very real and truthful reasons for keeping the Titan....

Again...

regardless of any very real and truthful reasons for keeping the Titan....

Did we/BoB promise to return it?

Yes Serge, we did.

Ria Sotori
2008-06-14, 11:43

I for one detest cashing out. Never done it in the 2 MMORPGs I ever played even when I could have easily made 10-20k on the first one. However I personally am not going to tell anyone what to do with their stuff.

BNC has always been known as a bunch of drunk capitalist bastards in bob who dont smack in local and have had some of the best pvp pilots. The industrial capacity of this corp(s) has been mostly unknown to the majority of eve due to frankly keeping our mouths shut about what BNC.E can or cant do and what other activites our members have on the side thru alts etc. I doubt most of our membership even truly know the full scope.

Hege always had a unique position in BNC as stated by Corrie in the IRC explanation.

Basically I agree with what Blacklight said and am sitting back to watch how it unfolds.

DoctorGonzo
2008-06-14, 11:43

I have one thing to say, which is simple - give Hege 'his' Titan back.

Violator2k5
2008-06-14, 12:50

I have one thing to say, which is simple - give Hege 'his' Titan back.

wow this is a lot of drama, all i can say is that im fully behind coranor on this one. ok its a bit of bad publicity but if it were to be given back to him it would more then likely look like were agreeing with his actions IF he is going to ebay it.

i cant say much more on that other then i fully support our CEO's decission regardless.

Onchas Erivvia
2008-06-14, 12:51

This is an emerging issue and there's not a clear indication of what's going to come of this, but what does tend to happen in these things as emotions tend to get a bit raw and people run to the forums to write posts that are focused through the lens of their own individual, personal perspective on the corporation (broadly) and the individuals involved.

So, I ask readers of this thread to keep this in mind. Some of the posts they're going to read here are motivated by other concerns.

I ask those who plan on posting to really think though whether or not what they're going to post actually helps this corporation or if it undermines it.

If you're in a leadership position (or former leadership position), its really best if you just don't post for now. Don't stay silent forever, but chances are you have venues and methods of communicating with the principals involved and your posts in here are only going to contribute to hardening resolves and rubbing bare already raw emotions; so don't.

Montohotep
2008-06-14, 13:13

Regardless of any very real and truthful reasons for keeping the Titan....

Again...

regardless of any very real and truthful reasons for keeping the Titan....

Did we/BoB promise to return it?
yes

DoctorGonzo
2008-06-14, 13:50

Sorry, but I'm completely perplexed. It his Titan, that he made and then very graciously lent to the alliance. He now wants it back. What he does with it, is his choice. If he's going to sell it for RL money then it needs petitioning, but it's HIS titan, not the corps.

Saying the only reason he's got in the first place is because of the corp / alliance is a none starter. We let hege use and abuse the 10/10 because no on else would run it. Also he donated billions and billions of isk from that plex - so the corp did get it's fair share.

I'm just stunned, simply stunned.

(P.S. I have no internet at home and limited access from a friends house)

Lord WarATron
2008-06-14, 14:11

I agree with you 100% there DG. I am hoping there is a very good reason for the Comadeering of his Titan, because if there is not a valid reason, then it is no different from someone who commits corp theft because he has a issue with the corp.

Lungorthin
2008-06-14, 14:22

I have known Hege for a very long time.
I would trust him unconditionally, with all my ingame assets if needed, with even my login data if needed.
He never stole from anyone, he never stole from corp, he never deceived anyone, he never scammed anyone.
He has his ups and downs as we all do, but he is a good guy.

If I were to lend a cap ship, or any ship for that matter to the corp/alliance and took a break, and if I were to come back from my break and would be told that because I carebeared so much that the cap ship has been impounded, that would certainly upset me big time.

Hege is a team player...
I feel personally very uncomfortable at what at the moment looks to me as plain theft, just in this case the corp robbing a decent player.

***
Change of topic:

Sign me up for corp mining for the next corp Titan.

Blacklight
2008-06-14, 14:25

I'd love to know what you all think you're going to achieve posting in that CAOD thread as well.... I mean seriously, you read CAOD and see drama about BNC and/or BoB you follow these steps:-

1) you type out a huge rant and flaming reply
2) you re-read it and make sure it's exceedingly vitriolic and self righteous
3) you sit back and interlace your fingers over your beer belly, smile and nod your head at your own forum prowess
4) you delete the retarded post before it ever sees the light of day because you're not an idiot and you know that posting on CAOD never does any good
5) you sit on your hands whilst reading CAOD for the next 7 days

Talk about giving goons/RA/random BoB haters ammunition, what on earth's got into you all?

This forum or irc or corp chat are the places to discuss this corporations dirty laundry. Posting in that thread on CAOD will have 100,000 goons coming in their pants by tea time tomorrow.

Argue, bitch, debate, rant or just be plain irreverant in this thread but everytime you post in that CAOD thread some of your alliance mates die inside.

Onchas Erivvia
2008-06-14, 14:25

Change of topic:

Sign me up for corp mining for the next corp Titan.

This. Awesome suggestion Lungo.

Montohotep
2008-06-14, 14:30

seriously stfu on CAOD.

Sergeant Spot
2008-06-14, 14:30

I've been mentally agonizing over exactly what to post here, or if I should post at all. This issue has a chance of emo cascade written all over it. I post only because I think voices for calm are really and truely needed, and I came to that conclusion only after some serious thought.

For anyone who feels their inner emo coming to the surface, remember this: BNC/BNC.E are among the best folks in game. We'll overcome this too.

Astasia, Coranor and our other leaders are OUTSTANDING leaders, and DESERVE a certain level of respect and deference.

Even if you dont agree with talented and effective leaders, remember the value of talented and effective leaders.

And to our leaders: Even if you have a issue where you have to back track and change course, the best leaders are firm, but not brittle and completely unyielding.

Galum Arfamon
2008-06-14, 14:33

This. Awesome suggestion Lungo.
I'm all for that one! Sign me up as well.

Prefect Six
2008-06-14, 14:33

Blacklight has won this thread.





Twice.

Nick Curso
2008-06-14, 14:36

i will put in all 6 miners if i get the titty

lord morpheus
2008-06-14, 15:12

How hard is it to put yourself in Hegs shoes. Ponder for a minute

Someone borrowed a titan from Heg who personally worked hard to build since 2006. Returned it to corp to give back to Heg but the "Corp" wont or cant or for whatever reason decides to keep it. We are all affected by this as this was returned to our corp we have to make it right...

If i have it ill give it back if i borrow it you'll get it back. But i don't

slip66
2008-06-14, 15:55

Thats one reason I haven't posted on coad about it. It has already turned into a anti bob thread. Nor will I bash they guy publicly or here. I jsut felt that both the corp and indivigual benifited greatly from him running the plex and he was compensated for it.

If I read his post correctly. He sated he has more then enough isk to buy more so it doesnt mean anytihng to him other then the principle of the matter.

Did the isk from the plex allow him to buy and build those bpos, station and most of the titan?

Coranor
2008-06-14, 16:23

Basically we just didn't give it back to him.

There you go thats the bottom line before i get into the reasons.

First of all hege is loaded. I mean the guy has more isk than khatred. This is cause all he ever did was carebear and run that plex. Reason he ran the plex is not cause we were never able to get a plex team together. We did, but first sign of trouble people just wanted nothing to do with it and just said ah let hege do it despite the fact that the plex itself generated ungodly amounts of isk. Isk that could have been used to buy the sorts of bpo's that hege had let us use(because he wanted nothing to do with them btw). I wanted to get teams from eclipse and run it as a corp project same as the pos network but it never happened. Was quite happy to have the swedes running it as they actually interacted with the rest of the corp and would use the output to benefit the rest of the corp as they're like that.

Secondly I said at the time that building hege a titan was an epic mistake. That he would never ever use it willingly. When we did finally get him to the front in omist he emo'd out at the fact that everyone wanted him to dd something. God forbid that a titan pilot would have to drop a dd on a fleet of goons as they try to kill all his corpmates and destroy his alliance.

Now i don't hate hege, I really don't. The man had for right or wrong gotten himself into a position where he owned pretty much 3 quarters of our t2 bpo assets and our entire capital program. This is what being given a plex to run does for you. Now you have a guy who didn't really know anyone in the corp anymore and didn't try to who owned all our(I say our stuff as we'd been building off these prints for years) stuff. He'd showed absolutely no interest in these assets till he suddenly comes to the conclusion that he wants to quit the game and cash out to use his words. You can imagine our consternation at having to fork over 110 bill just so our t2 production wasn't utterly decimated by someone who doesn't even play the game anymore and just wants more isk to pad out his already stupidly large wallet.

Hege is a great industrial asset just not for a corp. For himself he'll build tons of stuff. Ask him to build dreads for the corp and you get nothing(yes i did give him that project and got zippo output from him). Hege would be a grand member if he actually did something for the corp more than just not caring about t2 bpo's. He would quite possibly still be here if he had made a modicum of effort to be a member of the corp instead of just some rich guy that runs our plex and keeps the isk.

But to go back.

Main reasons.

I quite simply refuse to watch someone flog a titan to the russians/goons(who would break the bank just cause its a bob titan) just so he could retire from the game with a wad of real life cash or sit on some isk and never use any of it. I also refuse to see a titan sit in low sec and do nothing till ccp closes the servers I'd sooner self destruct it.

Guy with a load of assets the corp depends on decides to quit the game. What does he do? Does he say so long thanks for the laughs keep my stuff i'll not need it? or does he say so yeah can i have all my gear back now i'm quitting the game so all my bpo's can sit in empire and rot along with the titan built from the corps asset? Why would you want this stuff after 2 years of not giving a shit because you're quitting the game?

Also there's no point in going to eve-o to post lads. Its not like anyone there actually reads posts when they can just rant and rave.

Coranor
2008-06-14, 16:39

Did the isk from the plex allow him to buy and build those bpos, station and most of the titan?

The t2 bpo's were won in the lottery we paid a fair price to buy them out(this is why we had to drop the corp shop for a couple of months). Everything else was the complex.

He might have bought the zealot bpo. Not sure.

Also the isk from a 10/10 plex could churn out a titan a week nearly. Its not hundreds of man hours. Soon as he bought the minerals he wasn't even involved in the building of the titan anyway. Think gothmog did the compression and eclipse did the rest. Also he never actually donated a cent. During my convos with him he brought up literally everything he even had a finger in funding. Only reason we didn't have to buy the cap bpo's off him is cause he couldn't be arsed. Thats not donating and it sure as fuck isn't generosity.

Onchas Erivvia
2008-06-14, 16:44

Why would you want this stuff after 2 years of not giving a shit because you're quitting the game?

Because its easier to impress the chicks with stories of $25K USD worth of Eve in-game assets than it is driving around in a shitty Vauxhall hatchback vanity plates, "MY TITAN"?

:P

Lord WarATron
2008-06-14, 17:13

Coronor, do you beleive that taking control of the assets is correct rather than giving it to him and booting him? Was the reason he was booted because he was going to leave?

I doubt more than a handful of people knew hedge, but the guy did spend hundreds of hours digging in the dirt of the goldmine to get to where he is now. The guy did earn the isk fair and square. If his plexing was a problem, then he should have been charged a bigger tarriff or booted back then. Its not right to bring that up against him now months after plex's got removed.

When he was inactive, he could have kept the titan like a greedy mofo, but he gave it to the alliance to use for the time being.

I think this whole affair sends a message to other people, who like myself, were planning to set themselves up to buy a personal titan a year from now, which is to not bother.

Coranor
2008-06-14, 17:30

What tarriff lw? there was no tarriff cept he gave us some hardeners. It is right to bring that up as thats what financed the titan. Its also what financed the swedish titan but they've actually used the titan to help the corp as has cosmo.

I don't mind people building titans in fact i encourage it. But this isn't the same case. This is a titan funded by what was supposedly a corp asset that was in all likelyhood going to get ebayed. You'd rather we become the laughing stock of eve once he ebays the titan? Sure we got some people now who hate us and think i'm a dirty thief but i'd rather have that then to see the corp mocked for the rest of my time in the game.

Lord WarATron
2008-06-14, 17:47

Its more a point of princible. We do not know if he is going to ebay it or not, and if he does ebay it, people will laugh at him, not us.

And the people laughing would be the people with the attention span of a goldfish. Everyone has forgotten Lcross, and in a months time, everyone will have forgotten this Hedge incident as a new FOTM happen.

I do not think its right making tough decisions on the basis of what the eve community thinks since most people who follow it hate us all anyway. I know there is no easy answer to this, but the issue is more of princible for me rather than what someone on COAD thinks.

Blacklight
2008-06-14, 17:56

Quick question, a rhetorical one as I know the answer, who else was going to run the plex if Hege wasn't?

Coranor
2008-06-14, 17:57

Well really i made it in the basis of the amount of headaches he's provided me by threatening to fuck us over with his bpo's that he's never had any interest in. Primarily it was my immense distaste for isk selling and ebaying ingame assets though.

fuck that.

Coranor
2008-06-14, 18:00

Quick question, a rhetorical one as I know the answer, who else was going to run the plex if Hege wasn't?

More than once i suggested teams from eclipse. You wanted hege cause you couldn't be arsed, you got hege.

Fiberwire
2008-06-14, 18:00

tbh why don't all of us take the simplest appraoch to this? Don't care...

This is something between Hege and Cory. As Vito Corleone said in the movie Godfather, "I'm not interested in things that don't concern me."

Don't post on caod, don't talk to idiots in local, kill people and make sure they don't know anything about you. The best kill is done swiftly and silently

Blacklight
2008-06-14, 18:58

tbh why don't all of us take the simplest appraoch to this? Don't care...

This is something between Hege and Cory. As Vito Corleone said in the movie Godfather, "I'm not interested in things that don't concern me."

I think the answer to that Fiber is that you should all be interested in the way in which your corporation is run.

Eve is not a casual game and whether rightly or wrongly we all invest (yes even those of us who allegedly don't play anymore) a lot of time and emotion into the experience. It's important given that huge investment that you are getting as much enjoyment from it as possible and one aspect of that is that you are comfortable in your environment & therefore corporation.

Whether your corporation is run according to a set of ethics and philosophies that you are comfortable with should be something you are very interested in. Investing so much time, effort and emotion in being connected with something you do not agree with or you do not feel represents your own outlook on the game is surely going to be a source of friction and dissatisfaction.

So it's right to question and demand answers so that you can understand properly what you are a part of, particularly when it concerns the ethics, philosophy, goals and aims of an organisation you belong to.

The day someone says "don't ask that question and just do as you are told" is the day alarm bells should start to ring in your head. Obviously my views on this issue do not cover strategic or tactical information that needs to be withheld for security reasons. However, the general philosophies and ethics of the corporation will not get you killed if leaked and do serve to promote unity of purpose if properly understood by everyone on board.

At the end of the day those that lead do so by consent because at it's most extreme if you all stopped consenting to be lead and left the corp then the corp is no more and the leadership have nothing to lead. At the same time however, in joining and remaining a member of the corp you are, to a degree, saying "I agree to follow your direction" and should not second guess every leadership decision (especially those which are not of a moral, ethical or philosophical nature).

Following blindly will lead to weakness in the team and potentially some nasty surprises.

Following with your eyes open, intelligently questioning a leadership with their ears open will lead to better leadership and stronger bonds within the team.

You should all satisfy yourselves that you are happy with the decisions being made, you should feel free to comment, criticise and suggest alternatives whilst doing so. The day your leaders don't want to hear and receive your input is the day you have a very serious problem indeed and one from which many organisations never recover.

I'll take a team of "why, what, when, how" men against anyone's team of "yes" men any day of the week.

So regarding the subject at hand, some sensible debate, behind closed doors and not washing our dirty laundry in public, is actually a healthy activity.

What we also need to remember when reading threads with debates such as this one is that most of the people asking questions are looking for a reason to support their leaders and not looking for reasons to undermine them. People may need convincing but that doesn't mean that they don't want to be convinced.

Relax about open debate, it is healthy

Sergeant Spot
2008-06-14, 19:08

Cashing out for RL cash sucks.

When I left the game "Mankind" I left my assets to the guild (and I had substantial assets).

Having said that...

Even if Hege is cashing out for RL cash....
Even if he had a greed problem....
Even if should have never had the Titan built to begin with...

Its a bad move to keep it.

The time to have "kept it" was long long ago, back when it was built. Flawed as any logic was that was used at the time, short of him doing some unprovoked corp theft or something like that, now is not the time to rethink it.

Jossua
2008-06-14, 19:31

hmm, just my pov:

IF we promised to give it back, we should.

In the end it is his decision to "cash out", if we like it or not.

On the other hand I understand Coranors arguments as well. E-baying and isk-selling is shit.

I support the management decision as there are much more informations that I do not know (I am sure about it)....

but hey, we promised it!

Niraco79
2008-06-14, 19:39

o/ from my shitty times

I do not know hege. i am one of the new school here and i am mostly inactive these days so i am not so hot headed as i am reading from some of you.

I have 2 things to say.

One. The titan is a strategic asset. Coranor is right for alliance plans not to let go of the titan.

Two. Breaking a word will not go without consequences. Each of us can be demonized in our own way, me for making 800 kills in interceptor and beeing always broke, Haarg for beeing a nub ( ) and so on. I just hope the corp can work now without the trust of many of our members cause when a leader break his word, this cannot be undone. The trust is broken and the salty taste many of us feel is the one when the world u use to know shows its dark face.

I would had prefered that this decision to be made at alliance level and promoted as an alliance decision cause it simply favours the alliance business over corporation. Corporation true assets are its members, rest can be done over and over.

As a personal note i feel a very bad taste in my mouth on this matter. And RL money cashing sucks. (hope he get banned for that and those who bought the isk).

Lord WarATron
2008-06-14, 20:03

I do not know if hedge ever ebayed or said if he was going to ebay. However that is not really solving anything. I do not want to be rude, but thats like a WMD in Iraq type of justification.

Hege is not getting the titan back, we all know this. However, there is nothing to stop him getting paid for it. E.G If I had a pos on a moon the alliance wanted, I would expect the pos to be comadeered and myself compensated for the pos + modules so I can dump it elseware. I would not expect someone to say "well, he made enough from moon mining to buy another pos" etc

The best solution moving forward is sending hedge a fair price for what whas taken, over a period of time to suit our cashflow. The other alternative is to not pay him anything at all, which is fine if we accept the age old proverb of "what goes around, comes around".

Ria Sotori
2008-06-14, 20:47

Simple Solution.

Give it back to him unfitted and no fuel in a cyno jammed bob system he doesnt have the password for.....

Then when he screams say... oh you wanted to move it out of Bob space..... that will be 50 bil..... :P

Everyone wins

lord morpheus
2008-06-14, 20:57

I have a lot of questions on this open forum

If "your" planning not to give it back. Did all the directors put it to a vote or is it just your decision? Also is there any compensation for his Titan? He may be loaded and able to buy one but thats not a good reason enough for me.

I have 6 capital ships does that mean the corp owns them because i hit the asteroid belts for almost 20 days during my 3 yrs with the corp? All those were acquired using trading. Heg may have other sources too. I know he had dread bpo battleship bpos and component bpos he acquired while in stain alliance not from plexes.

He may have lent those bpos out of good faith like the Heg i know to corp since hes not using it but now hes back in game and wants it back same as the titan....

He may say hes quitting but he always come back he just wants it in his coffers so he can use something when hes active again. Corp should have made copies instead imho.

The Government
2008-06-14, 22:12

My pov in a nutshell (not that it matter much)

BNC/BNC.E and it's directors hasn't lost any trust from me over this once so ever. I feel Coranor and our leaders had a hard choice to make and felt this was best for the Corporation as a whole. Letting a titan that was built under the BOB umbrella out to be sold or not used at all would be foolish imo. I'm not retired from the game yet or a super cap pilot so don't have that luxury of not keeping my eyes peeled for a possible DD.

As for what Hege did or didn't I can only go by what is said by others, but it seems very clear the guy got filthy rich enough so he could afford another or more titans. If isk is what Hege's real point of view is all about and being built by us is ours (and were he got the isk from) then perhaps we could find a medium and buy out the minerals and bpc cost. He has his isk then and can go try to manage the logistics to build another or ebay or whatever then.

Just trying to offer a possible solution not that one is really needed I guess though.

Xrak
2008-06-14, 22:24

My pov in a nutshell (not that it matter much)

BNC/BNC.E and it's directors hasn't lost any trust from me over this once so ever. I feel Coranor and our leaders had a hard choice to make and felt this was best for the Corporation as a whole. Letting a titan that was built under the BOB umbrella out to be sold or not used at all would be foolish imo. I'm not retired from the game yet or a super cap pilot so don't have that luxury of not keeping my eyes peeled for a possible DD.


Im not good at writing up good posts about my views, so I will just say that this is pretty much my point of view.

Management had a tough decision to make and I fully support them in it, it was not the easy choice and Im not sure I would have had the conviction to have done it.

The important part thing is to learn from this whatever we can, mistakes were made in the past that can't be undone now so we have to live them and move on, but not forget them.

Not sure that what I wrote makes sense or it's what I mean but it'll have to do.

enjoi
2008-06-15, 00:33

That was beautiful Xrak.

On a serious note, the titan was obtained using a corporation asset, and was used as a major corporation asset for a long time now. It's become an integral part of the way we do things now; the need for its use is irrefutable.

And let's look at what we have here. We already paid the man back for what he DID give us (minus the titan) for using a corporation asset (the plex), so he's gained his fair share from the lucrative time he spent in the 10/10 complex. You might say that his 'fair share' would include his titan, but when you consider that the total value of the assets he gained from said complex is in all probability several titans over and then some, you have to step back and think; hang on a minute, this guy is gonna be far from a pauper without this asset (to reiterate: that he gained from using corporation assets). Certainly we as a corporation would sorely miss its presence in the operation of our corp, these things have become an integral cog in the works. Yes, it sucks for the man that from his standpoint he is not going to get it back, but I really think that when you look at it from a logical point of view, rather than the perhaps biased view of a close friend, or that of someone whose been listening to some queer rumor, you have to concede that the choice that was made, was the right one. Perhaps it doesn't suit you morally, but harshly that's the way it is; deal (to be harsh).

I fully support the choice that has been made in the matter, and when you consider all the above, I believe it was the only choice that could realistically be made.

Just my two cents.

Edit: Barely related note on the topic of complexes not being corporate assets.

It's debatable, LM. A static 10/10 complex generates a lot of income; it's into the billions of ISK per week figures. Also take into account that when the running was going on, that the plex was static. This is comparable to the high end moons (also static big-money makers that require management) that are taken by the corporations for the corporations, who own the space (No such thing as a personal Dysp). Wasn't this why the running of them was managed (or attempted to be) by the leadership at the time? I hope you see at least why I myself would think of one as such, I'm not trying to categorize anything here!

lord morpheus
2008-06-15, 01:42

10/10 plex, ice belts, moons asteroid belts are not corporation asset unless the corp as a group set a moon mining pos and yielded raws or reactions from it and delivered to corp hangar. Ice sitting in fields are not corp asset unless mined as a group same with roids. In that case anyone who mined the roids or bistot should fork over the ores because its a corporation asset. We are taxed accordingly. I dont hear a director asking anyone to give the hauler drops from npc. They are farmed from a bob region.

Back to the point a promise is made but not "yet" kept

Lungorthin
2008-06-15, 03:14

Primarily it was my immense distaste for isk selling and ebaying ingame assets though.


The ebay selling accusation has been mentioned a lot.
When confronted with it by me Hege commented the following yesterday:

"The ebaying stuff is just rationalizing honestly I have to admitt I have thought of it but I have never Ebayed anything"

These are not my words, i quoted Hege there.

Lord WarATron
2008-06-15, 04:23

I do not think there is a single person in bob that expects Hedge to get his titan back. But there is a right way and a wrong way to do this.

Just before the start of the big war, I used funds I got from 6/10 to buy a alt. The 6/10 is a corporation asset. Does that mean my alt is BNC property? What about all the real life time I spent running 6/10's? What if I let someone borrow the alt and then afterwards get told to STFU when I ask for it back.

Lets be perfectly honest here. Good or bad, Hedge was allowed to run the plex within the parameters he was given. He did not screw us over, he stopped the russians running the plex, he used the capitalistic sense of making money and he put the effort in and got the rewards. It would be compleatly unprofessional of us to steal and then call it a "Tax" after the event.

We robbed the guy, and there is no point doing a "WMD in Iraq" scenario to justify it. There is nothing wrong in keeping the titan if we pay hedge a fair price for it over a decent period of time.

Thats the only real issue left now. Is BNC going to compensate Hedge with a fair price for keeping his titan or not?

Spathi
2008-06-15, 05:10

iirc, Jake offered him exactly what hege asked (isk) for back when Jake first got it, hege never completed the deal because he was never on.

Jake can post more detail should he desire.

Skilo
2008-06-15, 05:25

Here are my 2 isks

1st let me say that after reading all been said soo far i feel even prouder to be in BNC

There aren't many corps/alliances where things like this could be debated and spoken freally and top decisions contested. And this, i'm sure, was a tough one to be made and this is what we expect from everyones leaders ... Gratz Coranor! (damn i used the word this 3 times LOL)

I agree the titan must stay in BNC.

IIIIIIIIFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF (BIG IF) we promissed to give him back then we should

Now what?

We do a 1 week 100% corp tax carebear/NPC op and pay him a fair price for the damn ship.

/me prepares ships for corp usage and send 2 isks for corporation wallet

On a out of place note .... Lord Waratron you don't need to run when you see Blacklight dressed as spiderman. Only when he is dressed as Spiderwomam :0

Montohotep
2008-06-15, 05:58

there are no IFs skilo.

Silvero
2008-06-15, 06:08

hmm, just my pov:

IF we promised to give it back, we should.

In the end it is his decision to "cash out", if we like it or not.

On the other hand I understand Coranors arguments as well. E-baying and isk-selling is shit.

I support the management decision as there are much more informations that I do not know (I am sure about it)....

but hey, we promised it!

The thing is we did offer to buy it at production cost, Jake already had his minerals ready for a new build but thought he had a deal with Hege.
So Jake sold his compressed minerals and the componente of to evol, to be able to buy Hege's Titan.
Hege then turned on the deal to be able to auction it of to maximize profit(my guess).
Remember this was a few months ago during the full onslaught of the coalition, yeah great corp mate that is.

Me and LP are considering "our" titan a corp asset, simply because we used a corp asset namely the 10/10 to finance it and eclipse to build it for us.

And NO Lord Waraton the 6/10 wasn't corp assets, the 10/10 was however divided amongst the bob corps.

And NO lord morpehus everything isn't corp asset dont be stupid, but the high end moons end perhaps a 10/10 plex giving 1,5 - 4 bil a day might be a corp asset what do you think.

Lord WarATron
2008-06-15, 06:43

The thing is we did offer to buy it at production cost, Jake already had his minerals ready for a new build but thought he had a deal with Hege.
So Jake sold his compressed minerals and the componente of to evol, to be able to buy Hege's Titan.
Hege then turned on the deal to be able to auction it of to maximize profit(my guess).
Remember this was a few months ago during the full onslaught of the coalition, yeah great corp mate that is.

Me and LP are considering "our" titan a corp asset, simply because we used a corp asset namely the 10/10 to finance it and eclipse to build it for us.

And NO Lord Waraton the 6/10 wasn't corp assets, the 10/10 was however divided amongst the bob corps.

And NO lord morpehus everything isn't corp asset dont be stupid, but the high end moons end perhaps a 10/10 plex giving 1,5 - 4 bil a day might be a corp asset what do you think.


Its simply not right changing the rules after the event. He was given a 10/10 and if there was a problem with it then it should have been discussed 2 years ago and not used now as justification for theft.

A 6/10 was free game for us. in fact, today, all unoccupied non-dsyo/prom moons are also fair game for us. But in the future, that may change. In the same way, a unoccupied 10/10 was free game for him, since he got permission to run it.

Not returning the titan is understandable. The issue is not so much what has happened, but what is going to happen. The only question is if Hedge is going to be compensated a fair value for all that was taken or not?

LordPhoenix
2008-06-15, 06:45

Just remember that we couldn't get a regular group to run complexes for corp profit for love nor fucking money because no-one and I do mean no-one could be arsed to commit to it for literally years. So the issue of Hege running the 7BX plex for so long is not cut and dry, we could not get anyone else to do it. Not only could we not get anyone else to do it regularly but everyone who said they would also wanted to make sure they got a cut for themselves, so do not demonise Hege for profiteering when not a single man jack in the corp was any better by anything other than degree.


No disrespect Blacklight coz you know I love you and all but this is not entirely true.
Even before the 7bx OP was built me, Silvero and Fourier wanted to run that plex for the corp when Hege was absent.
We did (well Fourier did and we kept our word to give the corp all the core x-type hardeners and a large amount of isk, all in accordance to our deal. When Hege got back ingame he went emo and almost emo quit. So we didn't want him to quit and we didn't want any hard feelings between us so we left the area and ever since then we wanted to run it whenever we could but we didn't wanna seem greedy or anything like that. When we noticed that Hege had gone into hibernation once more we within "the gimpsquad" started some feasible studies to build a titan and then I approached you with a request to run the 10/10 plex.
I don't know whats been said about this on leadership level but we were one of those teams you were talking about.

Dooshotron
2008-06-15, 06:57

It has to be asked why does he want the titan and not a buyout, the ship benefits us greatly seems to me he just wants it to look cool in when he logs in on occasion. I would gladly donate time to raise capital to pay the guy and put this right and I am sure everyone else would do without question.

Myggan
2008-06-15, 07:17

Sorry, but I'm completely perplexed. It his Titan, that he made and then very graciously lent to the alliance. He now wants it back. What he does with it, is his choice. If he's going to sell it for RL money then it needs petitioning, but it's HIS titan, not the corps.

Saying the only reason he's got in the first place is because of the corp / alliance is a none starter. We let hege use and abuse the 10/10 because no on else would run it. Also he donated billions and billions of isk from that plex - so the corp did get it's fair share.

I'm just stunned, simply stunned.

(


THIS

Blacklight
2008-06-15, 07:18

No disrespect Blacklight coz you know I love you and all but this is not entirely true.
Even before the 7bx OP was built me, Silvero and Fourier wanted to run that plex for the corp when Hege was absent.
We did (well Fourier did and we kept our word to give the corp all the core x-type hardeners and a large amount of isk, all in accordance to our deal. When Hege got back ingame he went emo and almost emo quit. So we didn't want him to quit and we didn't want any hard feelings between us so we left the area and ever since then we wanted to run it whenever we could but we didn't wanna seem greedy or anything like that. When we noticed that Hege had gone into hibernation once more we within "the gimpsquad" started some feasible studies to build a titan and then I approached you with a request to run the 10/10 plex.
I don't know whats been said about this on leadership level but we were one of those teams you were talking about.

Yes of course mate I know you guys eventually took it over and there was some overlap between you and Hege running it.

The fact remains that prior to you guys getting interested in it we really couldn't get anyone other than Hege to run it regularly, in part because of the timing of one of the two respawns.

It's just not a cut and dry issue as decisions were made at the time which are almost impossible to second guess now because they were made in the context of events at the time.

My point was that rightly or wrongly we struggled to get true corp usage of that 10/10 going for a very long time and so largely individual/personal/small group projects were associated with it.

We have suffered from a bastardised blend of our early corporate capitalist model and a gradual move to more corporate owned and centrally funded operation (rightly so I might add). The corp as a whole has seen a lot of benefit from the capitalist model early on which created all sorts of innovative behaviour, desire to succeed, willingness to grind out some difficult projects etc. However, whilst all that is true we've also had some serious issues to manage over the past 3-4 years with key assets belonging to individual members all of which were a direct result of that same capitalist model. Villsen was a case in point, he left with 2/3 of our then T2 ship bpos without saying a word to any of us, recovering from that was a major hassle.

I think if I could have my time over again in Eve I'd have gone the 100% communist route right from the beginning, but hindsight is 20/20.

Blacklight
2008-06-15, 07:34

My issues with all this titan drama are threefold.

1) We can't demonise Hege when we sanctioned the way he operated, if you want to blame anyone then you have to blame me as CEO at the time for allowing it. I'll debate whether given the circumstances it was the right thing to do at great length with any of you any time you like.

2) If we'd actually said to Hege at any point "that titan belongs to the corp" or "that titan may be yours but it can't leave the alliance, if you're going to leave then we expect it to be given to us" or anything along those lines then keeping it now would be legitimate but we never did and we can't move the goal posts after the fact and retain any kind of integrity.

3) We promised the guy we'd give him it back and going back on your word like that is unacceptable.

Having said all that.

Hege has effectively cost the corp another titan because of the issues that Silvero outlined regarding Jake's titan and the minerals going to Evol etc. He has messed us around significantly and turned out to be far far less of a team player than he ever was in the past (and admittedly that has been up and down in the past too, he has always needed a lot of managing). That all muddies the waters enormously and I am personally exceedingly disappointed that one of our own has put us in this situation and forced such an unpleasant decision on Coranor.

My main concern is that we are seen (by ourselves, fuck what the rest of Eve or the CAOD monkeys may think) to do the right thing, that we recognise two wrongs don't make a right and that no matter how shady someone else may behave we can hold our heads up and know we did the right thing.

I may be sounding like a naive idealist here but god knows and you all certainly know, that I'll happily have a spy offline an enemy POS for us or steal us enemy assets, all is fair in love and war. However, we don't make war on our own, no matter how badly they may let us down.

Frankly I'd do one of two things if it were up to me - which it most obviously isn't, I'm just offering my opinion in response to the 353966783 emails and PMs I received telling me there was drama going on.

Either - give him his titan back and petition it, giving CCP as much information as possible even if it's just contextual and can't be used as evidence (any irc logs, chats in game etc where he mentions 'cashing out'), so that if it is ebayed they can take the appropriate action.

Or - tell him that because of all the messing about over Jakes titan he's caused us an enormous amount of trouble and we expect recompense i.e. we're concluding the deal anyway, retaining the titan and sending him the originally agreed amount of isk.

Jossua
2008-06-15, 08:16

Or - tell him that because of all the messing about over Jakes titan he's caused us an enormous amount of trouble and we expect recompense i.e. we're concluding the deal anyway, retaining the titan and sending him the originally agreed amount of isk.

THIS is exactly what I would do. If we had a deal with him and he screwed it than it is absolutly his problem.

LordPhoenix
2008-06-15, 08:30

Or - tell him that because of all the messing about over Jakes titan he's caused us an enormous amount of trouble and we expect recompense i.e. we're concluding the deal anyway, retaining the titan and sending him the originally agreed amount of isk.

This ^^


To those who says that all things inside our territory is corp assets. NO!
All plexes despite the 10/10 plex was corp/alliance owned. If you find a 10/10 plex now it's all yours.
All asteriod belts are up for grabs, even the ice belts. But not during the eclipse ice mining ops.
All moons despite the Hi end/rare moons is corp owned, but if it turns out that the moon you've occupied is a moon that was occupied by a bob corp before the invasion you may be ordered to take down your pos and leave it if requested to do so.
All npc's that you find are all yours.

But be sure you're not in any of the other bob corps home constellations.

Pagefault
2008-06-15, 09:45

I couldn't really give my opinion about the events that happened before i even joined, so i could just believe what both sided (if we can talk of these) were saying .
Fact is that i would have prefered to talk to Hege and try to find a compromise before kinda forcing him to make that stuff public. I don't really care what the majority of eve thinks about us and i never will. I'll still be the only one to decide wether i like it or not. But i didn't like the fact that we just ignored him and refused any negotiations.

Let's not hang up on the theoretic "ebay/egoistic use of 10/10"-issue anymore, but focus on the more recent fuckup of Hege's part, as in not finalizing an agreed deal with Jake that could have taken place.
Cosmo wrote (on CAOD) that Hege did continuously drop the price and finally wanted to give it to us for free. That's probably why he finally decided to disappear for some time to avoid that deal.
Jake will have to give us some more insight into this.

I would just like everyone not to stick to their position stubbornly to a 100% and rethink the whole issue.
For me, it's no big deal to say "Fuck it, let's keep it." But as Blacklight stated, this is not how we should treat our own or former own.

Astasia Orian
2008-06-15, 09:52

The number of people who want to give someone a huge pile of isk specifically so he can sell it for $ on the last few pages is kinda weird. A paypal donation thing would be much more to the point here than a corp isk donation week. I'm not making this shit up, he sold the last 100bn we gave him. He refers to this titan in dollar terms. He's bragged about his 'cashing out' So fuck him. That's all there is to it. Doesn't need 4 yr old plex history or irrelevant moralizing. I am not in the business of playing Eve so that people can flog stuff for their personal dollars. Especially one of the most important team-based assets in the corp(titans don't do much logged off in lowsec while you wait for the transaction to go through). That's the reason behind the whole thing. If he wanted to come back to the corp and play and maybe use the thing once a month (more often than last time but I'm a harsh taskmaster) he could have had it back but he is not being allowed to sell the titan for lol$.

petition it, giving CCP as much information as possible even if it's just contextual and can't be used as evidence (any irc logs, chats in game etc where he mentions 'cashing out'), so that if it is ebayed they can take the appropriate action.

When I first looked into this (like 9 months ago or something now) I was told by people in the know that it would more than likely result in the seizure of our BPOs, as they were where a large portion of the money came from. So lets not make things worse than they already are please.

Lord WarATron
2008-06-15, 10:52

Did he really sell 100bil? Do we have any chatlogs or any solid proof this or even where he said he was going to sell his isk for real money?

Reason I ask is that if this is true and we know for a fact that he is a known RMT dealer with a private client list, then changes a few things.

Galum Arfamon
2008-06-15, 10:59

I'm still a noob here, all things considered. But among the drama, here are my thoughts:
1- titans should not be "personal". I would suggest, to avoid a similar situation in the future, that any titan be seen as corp asset. If someone build a titan and then wants to leave BNC, he'll be compensated fairly (build cost), but the titan stays behind.
2- I am disappointed to see a BNC pilot putting all of us in this situation. This is not what BNC is about.
Coranor took a very difficult decision. I applaud him for that.
And I can't imagine any other pilot here that would put us in the situation Hege got us.
I hope this will not create a schism in the corp. We're BNC! And we certainly know better.. don't we?

Astasia Orian
2008-06-15, 11:17

Sadly I don't have a Youtube video of him saying HAY GUYS I'M SELLING THE ISK or setting his auctions, else he'd already have been banned (hopefully without those cs bpos getting yoinked!)

The way I found out was from a close buddy of his (who later got booted from the corp, by me, for something completely unrelated, lol, so isn't this a water-tight case I'm making) who told me Hege was converting his isk (inc the 100bn I had sweated my balls off to get him) to rl cash so he could 'cash out' in dollars <insert funny asian emoticons here>. I was also on various ts chats with Hege where he tested the waters about "hey guys if someone wanted to sell isk without getting caught how would they do it" and intimated that this was his goal because eve wasn't fun anymore etc (this happened a lot). The general acceptance that Hege was all about the RMT since his most recent 'quit' was never challenged or defended against by any of his friends. Even the people making the strongest moral high horse cases here on this thread (ie Blacklight) either accept that the isk is going to RMT or aren't going to challenge it.

Hege also referred to the titan repeatedly as a dollar value in conversations with Coranor.

So anyway, no I don't have 'evidence'. You'll just have to trust me based on my record (of titan stealing) and other stuff.

Astasia Orian
2008-06-15, 11:26

1- titans should not be "personal". I would suggest, to avoid a similar situation in the future, that any titan be seen as corp asset. If someone build a titan and then wants to leave BNC, he'll be compensated fairly (build cost), but the titan stays behind.


This is definitely NOT my POV. I have always been a strong supporter of people's property rights and capitalism, even though it is one of the reasons that we have always trailed the other BoB corps in terms of strategic corp assets (dreads and titans). My role in this is to punish the twat for converting my hard work to RL cash AND making RL money off the corp plex, whether or not it's Blacklight's fault for making a shitty deal in the first place.
I'm not naive enough to think people don't engage in RMT, but rule 1 should be you don't get caught and rule 0 is you DEFINITELY don't brag about it to your loose-lipped buddies. That just upsets people and makes them keep your titan. This is what I mean when I say self respect/he got to the point that he was taking the piss etc.

The fact that the guy, even after making fuck knows how much off the 100s of bns isk he had, still wanted to pull back the titan and make a further laughing stock of those of us who put the effort in to make it a strong corp just for some more rl money is what really pisses me off here. He should have quit while he was $x0000 ahead and not tried to completely take the piss.

My first response to someone when asked "why" on this thing was "Self Respect". After all the work we put in to pay this guy off the first time, I'm not just going to grab my ankles and lube up so I can keep the moral highground. Again, he should have quit while he was ahead rather than deliver the final insult.

EDIT: I could get really emo and try to explain how much work it was every day to pay off the guy who effectively owned the entire corp but didn't give a shit about anything other than his important emotional problems such as not being able to build as many personal outposts as he wanted and whether he could get a 4th ersonal mothership built but it would prolly just make me look silly and be even funnier when this eventually gets pasted to EVE-O, so again you'll just have to trust me on my previous record!

Lord WarATron
2008-06-15, 11:47

Ok. So the reason why BNC will not compensate his Titan for whatever the deal was, is because he is a "Isk Seller".

BNC hates isk sellers and everthing to do with them. That I understand. But we will not report him because
I was told by people in the know that it would more than likely result in the seizure of our BPOs, as they were where a large portion of the money came from.

Is this what the current descision is?

Astasia Orian
2008-06-15, 11:51

Bit late now either way isn't it? I won't object at this point but I don't think it'll change anything. Also I'll be massively emo if something happens to our bpos because of it :twisted:

Sergeant Spot
2008-06-15, 11:56

For me, the issue boils down to two details:

--Keeping our word
--Respecting Property ownership

However, reality has a way of complicating things, both in RL and even in game.

if, in fact, Hege had led you to believe that he would sell you the Titan, to the point that we sold the minerals for another Titan, that certainly opens the door for suggesting that we COMPLETE that deal, regardless of if Hege likes it or not.

However, even if the above is the case, the argument can still be made that until a deal was finalized, it is Hege's Titan. Messy....., but thats fairly normal when humans get involved in something. So annoying when true arguments pull in both directions.



I STRONGLY disapprove of reasons to keep the Titan that rely on condemning how the 10/10 complex wealth was managed. Flawed or not, now is NOT the time tell Hege we expect a bigger cut.

As for the e-bay argument, it is COMPLETELY trumped by "respect for property ownership". But Having said that, I would not even raise a modest peep of protest if we have a way to sick CCP on such sales. We can respect property ownership and the EULA at the same time.

Lord WarATron
2008-06-15, 12:07

Bit late now either way isn't it? I won't object at this point but I don't think it'll change anything. Also I'll be massively emo if something happens to our bpos because of it :twisted:

I do not expect any changes or anything. I just want to 100% be clear on exactly the real reasons for what is happening. We are not compensating Hedge for his Titan because BNC beleives he is a "isk seller" and we take the moral high ground against RMT. But when it comes to the tough descision of reporting him, we will not because CCP would do to the corp bpo's exactly what we did to his Titan, which is to reposses it.

I understand the descisions etc. I know its not a easy choice, and I know that its pretty unlikely that anything is going to change. However, we can not claim to hold the high ground against alleged RMT anymore if we refuse to report it because of theoretical corp loss. And if we do not hold the high ground, it brings a question to why we will not compensate his titan.

Astasia Orian
2008-06-15, 12:09

That's fine, people are welcome to disagree and I'm not posting in order to convert people. This isn't a referendum or a "with us or against us" thread. I am, however, explaining why it was done and why this guy isn't going to receive a penny of corp isk for as long as I control it.
Also I am posting in order to make sarcastic jokes about how people should start a paypal.

Astasia Orian
2008-06-15, 12:15

[12:10] <@Spathi> I dunno why ccp would sieze our bpos though, cos we paid for an ingame item with ingame isk, just because he sold that isk doesnt make us guilty
[12:11] <@Astasia> I don't know either spathi
[12:11] <@Astasia> but the guy I talked to knows his shit
[12:11] <@Astasia> and said it was a real concern if I took it further
[12:12] <@JakeNoble> yea i got that aswell
[12:12] <@JakeNoble> when i enquired
[12:12] <@JakeNoble> we'd have everything siezed along with the titan
[12:12] <@JakeNoble> hence why i never bothered to petition him

Again, I favour practicality over high morals, especially since he already got his $ and they can't be taken back. I know that other people disagree.

Jake Noble
2008-06-15, 12:16

No offence but:

[17:03] <@JakeNoble> !whereis anna val
[17:03] <@bob> (whereis) Anna Valerios [BNC] (03 minutes ago)
[17:03] <@bob> (whereis) Location : 8RQJ-2
[17:03] <@bob> (whereis) Ship : Avatar

You can moan you can suggest other stuff but quite frankly its a corp titan and will remain a corp titan. In my eyes, if astasia or coranor want to say other wise then it will.

I dont see why everyone now gives a fuck because he made some stupid caod post. The guy has fucked everything that the corp has worked towards time and time again. I knew when he left it would not be the last of him and I will continue to ignore him. I made a deal before he quit that I would buy it out right, he then demanded the titan back saying he couldn't trust me with $10,000 ( HIS EXACT FUCKING WORDS ) he then was about as active as I am currently and completly incapable of getting a hold of either of us. Coranor spoke to him, explained the situation we were in ( we were getting fucked in delve / Q ) I kept the titan and now he demands it back so it can sit in low sec. Fuck him.

I will self destruct the titan if it comes to giving it back to him, not because i am a cunt ( yes I know I am ) but because he has fucked my friends hard work to make this corp what it is today time and time again; so I will do it to him. Two wrong dont make a right, they make a happy jake.

Onchas Erivvia
2008-06-15, 12:21

$10k?

You can't buy a Vauxhall for that!!11!!

On the Chinese isk seller sites that link off the BoB KB, they're listed at at least $17k. That can get you one of those little hatchback jobbies.

Lungorthin
2008-06-15, 13:27

"The ebaying stuff is just rationalizing honestly I have to admitt I have thought of it but I have never Ebayed anything"

These are not my words, i quoted Hege there.

This message seems to have gotten lost in translation here,
allow me to repeat: Hege claims to never have sold anything EVE-Game related on ebay

It is a common rethoric trick to repeat something so often and loudly until everyone takes it for fact.
No matter how often it is repeated here that he supposedly ebayed stuff: that does not make it true.

Xrak
2008-06-15, 13:45

Even withouth the ebayisklols, I would still advocate keeping the titan because he was fucking us over at a time when as a corpmate he should have been helping us out.

While there is no hard evidence of the ebaying, videos, logs and testimonies etc, if the 3 people who had to dealt with him all feel, that strongly, that he was going to ebay it, I am likely to trust their judgement on it, after all Cory and Ast aren't that stupid. (<3 jake). And ofc asked about it now he is never going to admit it.

Sergeant Spot
2008-06-15, 13:52

This message seems to have gotten lost in translation here,
allow me to repeat: Hege claims to never have sold anything EVE-Game related on ebay

It is a common rethoric trick to repeat something so often and loudly until everyone takes it for fact.
No matter how often it is repeated here that he supposedly ebayed stuff: that does not make it true.


My hunch is a few folks don't trust him. I'm for giving the benefit of the doubt, but I'm not goin g to get upset over it. I can see the logic behind a variety of the opinions stated here.

Astasia raises a very good point on CCPs reaction. CCP has a history of being inconsistant.

I'd be inclined to contact CCP, say we have an in game debt, for in game wealth, but we are worried that the person we are paying is selling isk, and ask how we can pay the VERY REAL in game debt. However, given what I've heard of CCPs "logic" on these issues, they very well might even punish for merely asking the question.

Lord WarATron
2008-06-15, 13:53

This message seems to have gotten lost in translation here,
allow me to repeat: Hege claims to never have sold anything EVE-Game related on ebay

It is a common rethoric trick to repeat something so often and loudly until everyone takes it for fact.
No matter how often it is repeated here that he supposedly ebayed stuff: that does not make it true.

Iskseller or lowsec titan camping or even giving to the russians, I think their is pretty much every possibility that he could have done. In fact, all these options are available to every titan pilot ingame.

Even if it is true if he is a "isk seller", I think the point has already been made. He is not getting compensated for the titan because he is a alleged "isk seller". Therefore it is ok to do this reverse corp theft as long as its from a "alleged isk seller".

However, I find the double standard of not reporting him for "alleged isk selling" amusing, since that would cost us due to our "dodgy BPO's we got/bought off him". Its ok to benifit from his "alleged" crooked resources, but not ok to legitimatly compensate him fairly for the bloody thing.

If we are going to take the moral high ground, then lets do it all the way and report him and live with the consequnces. Otherwise we have no right to call him a isk seller.

Niraco79
2008-06-15, 14:01

Thiefing is same level as isk selling in my eyes...Still a bad taste in my mouth.

And to force close the deal we do not need to have hege online but to open a nice window called "send money to" put the amount of isk our corp find it fair and push ok button. Rest of all are escuses to what i see a bad decision.

But now is too late for everything to be repaired. And many of us are thinkin how we can be treated when we do not fit in the plans:

Fuck him.



I am very sad that it can come to this in BNC.

Xrak
2008-06-15, 14:06

We have every right to call him an ISK seller because of his behaviour and comments in the past. Just because we don't want to lose what we have worked hard and honestly for because of his mistakes doesn't make us the bad guys.

Nahia Senne
2008-06-15, 14:06

if you feel we owe hedge some isk, please donate it to him from your own wallet.

personally, i sure as hell wont be giving isk to someone who farmed a 10/10 for so long and is screwing the corp over.

Sergeant Spot
2008-06-15, 14:22

This bears repeating:

Keep your inner Emo in check.

So far folks have been pretty good about it. Very very good in fact. So keep that Emo chained, and Thank You!

Like many of the hotly debated issues, in games and even in RL, there are some very good arguments on the various possible positions. Just like hot debates in RL, its NOT a matter of "One side is right, and one side is Wrong". Having said that, in many arguments, even in RL, you gotta pick a side, as there often is no "practical" middle ground.

My own position is that we need to:
--Keep our Word
--Respect Property Ownership
However, while my position "suggests" we return the Titan (and I'd be happy with that), there is "at least" one other option that already been mentioned here.

Its times like these where you really need to say "Thank You" to our leadership. They need to deal with this crap, we all just get to comment and bitch. Its a healthy thing to not blindly follow, but its also healthy (and sadly rare) to recognize the value of leaders that can deal with unpopular issues.

Thank You Coranor
Thank You Astasia

Lord WarATron
2008-06-15, 14:25

personally, i sure as hell wont be giving isk to someone who farmed a 10/10 for so long and is screwing the corp over.


In this thread, there is posts from people who said he contributed his fair share, from others who said that he is a isk farmer and every thing inbetween. Most people in the thread hardly know Hedge. Heck, most people could not care less about him. However, the point is people want to be sure the same kind of crap is not going to be common place.

Regardless, you cannot blame someone after the event. He got permission to run the plex, and did so within the parameters he was given. He build stations, bought BPO's which the corp used, which helped the cashflow at the time I guess. You cannot call that screwing the corp over. If I had a t2 bpo and let the corp borrow it, after a while I need the t2 bpo back or paid for, is this considered screwing the corp over?

Either way, if there was a problem with his plex running, then it should have been brought up while we was running them, not now, after the event.

Lord WarATron
2008-06-15, 14:30

Its a healthy thing to not blindly follow, but its also healthy (and sadly rare) to recognize the value of leaders that can deal with unpopular issues.


You are quite right. It can take years to build a sculpture, and anyone can turn around and play critic to smash it in 5 mins with a hammer.

I think the key lesson is that the corp should never relay on player assets, since dependence on them creates these types of problems if the player ever wants them back. If that means changing the pure capatilistic model of BNC, then thats something for the leadership to discuss.

lord morpheus
2008-06-15, 17:28

One should never assume a deal is done until all is done. A lot of deals go bad. So if Jake had the minerals to build one then he should have held on to it until he got the titan from Heg. It cant be used as a justification to keep it.
One more note as a trader i always go for the highest bidder wouldnt you if your into profits for your hard work?

Niraco79
2008-06-15, 17:40

One more note as a trader i always go for the highest bidder wouldnt you if your into profits for your hard work?

tbh not always. if u go always for the highest bidder u make the best deal today. but u can lose on long term. Same with the balance between corporation goals and principles. Now BNC has a titan active and people discussing and beeing uneasy in a multi page thread.

Now what is more important people or the titan?

And yes i agree the titan should be kept. I am just saying that the way we did that was wrong and we should learn from that. people are more important that material assets. People are won by trust and trust of the people is the most valuable asset of a leader.

Xrak
2008-06-15, 17:42

One should never assume a deal is done until all is done. A lot of deals go bad. So if Jake had the minerals to build one then he should have held on to it until he got the titan from Heg. It cant be used as a justification to keep it.
One more note as a trader i always go for the highest bidder wouldnt you if your into profits for your hard work?

If you sold a titan to the ruskies and I wouldnt count on you staying in the corp tbh.

Jake Noble
2008-06-15, 17:46

One should never assume a deal is done until all is done. A lot of deals go bad. So if Jake had the minerals to build one then he should have held on to it until he got the titan from Heg. It cant be used as a justification to keep it.
One more note as a trader i always go for the highest bidder wouldnt you if your into profits for your hard work?

I moved everything for mine from empire to 0.0 built all the components using BPOs I sourced through friends and then get a deal for a titan, 48b you have the titan. Then he gets cold feet because 48b is not $10,000 and wants it. By this time I had sold all of my titan components to EVOL and some to BNCE, ruining my work of getting a titan. Hege is completely unavailable so Molle gives the titan to me to actually use and benefit the corp from it; let me just count the number of stuff hege did for the corp with it, oh I am still on one hand counting fingers.

I have done well over 200 freighter ops to and from empire moving stuff for YOU guys, those t2 mods and ships dont just appear out of no where I am sorry to say, that pos fuel doesnt just appear into corp hangars. Someone has to waste 5 hours a day moving freighters. I moved 100's of billions of corp assets out of Delve when it looked bleak, from 0600 to DT when there was no hostiles, I woke up 4 hours before work to do it.

And what hard work? Running a plex twice a day for 1 hour each time? Christ if it was that easy to get a titan we would all have one. The corp compressed, moved and built the components, loaded it into the yard and used the alliance bpo to build. Hard work indeed.

Last response from me unless I see something specific.

Ria Sotori
2008-06-15, 18:18

Last response from me unless I see something specific.

You have a small p33n

:P

On a seperate note. agree with it or disagree with it the real issue here boils down to confidence in your corp leadership. If you dont have it then its time to say adieu and move on. If you do then its buisness as usual.

No group of true individuals is going to agree with every decision made by those in charge. No leadership group is going to sit and psychoanalyze every decision for the membership. If you cant play like that then it's time you start your own corp and see just how freaking much like a job your gaming becomes. Trust me I know from experience.

Imho, Corrie said his reasons and motivations and you either believe him or you dont. I for one believe him, I dont agree with it but its his call and until the day comes I cant believe the leader of BNC then Im here for the duration or until he boots me for annoying him.

enough serious stuff from me.....

btw Corrie has a small p33n too.

:P

Lord WarATron
2008-06-15, 19:31

I moved everything for mine from empire to 0.0 built all the components using BPOs I sourced through friends and then get a deal for a titan, 48b you have the titan. Then he gets cold feet because 48b is not $10,000 and wants it. By this time I had sold all of my titan components to EVOL and some to BNCE, ruining my work of getting a titan. Hege is completely unavailable so Molle gives the titan to me to actually use and benefit the corp from it; let me just count the number of stuff hege did for the corp with it, oh I am still on one hand counting fingers.


I agree that the titan should stay in the corp. Most people can understand and have no problem with the titan staying if the guy was fairly compensated.

So I take it that Hedge offered you the titan for 48bil. You sold the mins etc to evol since you were getting Hedge's titan anyway. Well, if that was the deal then whats wrong in fulfilling it rather than giving the guy 0 isk insted of 48bil? I mean, I take it the corp got the isk from selling the titan components etc

HostageTaker
2008-06-15, 21:11

I agree that the titan should stay in the corp. Most people can understand and have no problem with the titan staying if the guy was fairly compensated.

So I take it that Hedge offered you the titan for 48bil. You sold the mins etc to evol since you were getting Hedge's titan anyway. Well, if that was the deal then whats wrong in fulfilling it rather than giving the guy 0 isk insted of 48bil? I mean, I take it the corp got the isk from selling the titan components etc

Because supporting RMT is wrong.

To be honest, I think everything has been said and laid out, at this point we're going round in circles.



I realize that over that last 2 years or so, a lot of new faces have joined BNC and if it was still the old vet BNC crew here I would not have to make the following clear; BNC IS NOT IN THE BUSINESS OF STEALING YOUR SHIT!

So calm the fuck down, and man the fuck up! Any of you planning on building big new violence boats, go ahead! You don't have to worry that we'll "steal" them! What happened with Hedge is a special case that started YEARS AGO.

I'm gonna stop myself here... before I write another paragraph and end up deleting it...

Lord Panther
2008-06-15, 21:29

Reading through all of these posts makes me very uncomfortable.

The arguments for keeping the Titan seem to boil down to four points.

1) Heg made lots of isks off of running the 10/10 Complex.

2) Some believe (without any proof) that Heg was selling isk for profit.

3) Heg is rich.

4) Jake could have built a Titan but didn't because Heg said he'd Jake his Titan.

Let's take an honest look at these points.

1. Let's say your employer has a sales route that could be quite lucrative, but which no one wants would require enormous dedication to make it profitable. You decide to take that route.

You put in the time required. You are successful. The Company which is undergoing a major expansion is short on cash. So they turn to you to provide things they can't afford.

You buy them for their use but maintain control of these things, which were bought with your hard earned cash.

You do this for over a year. Then the Company comes to you and says "We let you make too much off us. We're going to keep things we need." How would such an action look to other employees and the legal authorities.

BNC's leadership allowed Heg to run that complex. Even if some alternatives were available THIS was the arrangement the Corp chose. Whatever Heg earned, he earned legally.

2) Some would have us act as vigilantes by accusing, judging, and penalizing Heg on a charge of "isk selling" without any real proof.

It's CCP's job to Investigate and punish, not ours. In truth it seems inconsistent to say that Heg acted illegally and should be punished (by us) while we reap the benefits of those acts.

3) Yes Heg is rich, but to again use a real life analogy, in any civilized society, taking something that belongs to someone else is morally wrong, no matter how rich or poor that person is. It is especially egregious when possession of the item was gained through a promise to return it.

4) I'm sure Jake can use the proceeds from the sale of those minerals to purchase what is needed to build a new Titan.

So let's call this what it is. Let's not try to justify something that we know would be against the law in any real life society. If we are willing to live with that and go on, so be it.

If we aren't then give him his Titan back and close the book on this.

Xrak
2008-06-15, 22:02

edit: Not gonna bother.

Astasia Orian
2008-06-15, 22:09

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/im...on-Posters.jpg

Lord Panther
2008-06-15, 22:10

Why is it a bad analogy? It fits this situation.

If a Corporation thinks it's getting a bad deal from a contract it cancels the contract. It doesn't come back years later and say "We shouldn't have made this deal and so now we're keeping some of the profit the other party made off it."

That's exactly what's happening here.

PS Taking the law into ones own hands is always wrong. Mob justice is far more likely to be no justice at all. If you believe someone's breaking the rules then turn them in or at least don't associate with them.

Onchas Erivvia
2008-06-15, 23:38

Here's the problem with these sorts of things, at best they end up being this reductive, recursive series of arguments during which people hive off and overly simplify other people's arguments and positions and them pick them apart. So the thread becomes nothing but a series of strawman arguments and any actual refutation of a position becomes victim to goalpost sliding.

I want to make clear that I fully believe that there's value in these sorts of threads as a chance for people to vent their spleens, but in terms of actually getting some sort of productive output, it likely won't happen if it continues down the path its currently on. At somepoint, people have to move beyond navel gazing and playing forum rhetoric games.


Rita hit the name on the head. This comes down to an assessment of what it is you're going to do next.

Both major positions have merit. Both are based on a set of high-minded ideals and a belief grounded in what they think is best for this corporation. So, people need to stop acting like anyone else here has it wrong or is in some way "missing the point."

As SgtSpot pointed out, most people have avoided Emo-ness, which is awesome, but, folks, at somepoint we've gotta get down to the cold hard reality of the situation.

Coranor, Astasia et al. actually thought this through. They've actually worked towards an amicable settlement. Jake has made his position really clear. We can pick over what mistakes were made by previous members of the leadership team, but we're still in this situation.

As Rita made clear, everyone has a decision to make. You're either in or out. You either trust this administration or you don't. If you don't, its time to leave. If you do, let's move forward.


If people trust this leadership but believe that some compensation is appropriate for Hege, awesome. Get in-game and start generating the isk needed. If people want to mine it up, I'm happy to loan you retrievers or covetors and strip miner Is to get it done -- I'm poor, that's all I can do for you.

You know the position of the leadership. They are not going to allocate any more of the wealth and assets of this corporation in that direction. You're welcome, however, to work under the banner of this corporation to generate wealth that you allocate as you see fit. That's how it works. If you want to allocate money in a particular direction, you need to be involved in generating that money.


I'm trying really hard not to come down on any side here. I'm just making the point that there seems to be some people who are advocating a particular course of action without considering how to solve the problems for this corporation that are generated FROM that course of action.

Again, this is not my supporting or attacking any particular position on this matter, but some of the members of this corporation who are inactive need to stop for a moment and consider what they are prepared to do to log in and be an active part of helping this corporation actually overcome the consequences of the course of action (either way) for which they are advocating.

If you are not prepared to be part of moving forward, its time to say goodbye and leave. If you are prepared to be part of moving forward, its time for you to be actively involved in that process. No more sitting on the fence. You're either in or out. Make up your mind.

Niraco79
2008-06-16, 01:06

Jake we know your hard work. We really appreciate it. This thread is not about your work which i think is awesome.

I still believe we couldn`t open the mouth if u or cory when u heard about hege beeing a d**k u just wire him the 48 bil and then keep a screenshot. Next u just posted on CAOD and say "we keep our part of the deal!" and nobody in this eve world cold have said otherwise.

and yeah ..this thread has done it`s course. We should end it.

/me stop poasting

Lungorthin
2008-06-16, 02:49

There is one thing I hate in this world and that is witch hunting, gossiping behing peoples back and judging and sentencing people in absentia, in essence a drumhead court-martial.
And I believe this is exactly what is happening to Hege right now.

Now crucify me if you want but I took the liberty to send a transcript of this thread to Hege to give him the chance to reply through me if he wanted.
Nobody has bothered to ask Hege.
We are not hearing the other side here!
A coin HAS 2 sides after all.

Again: Crucify me if you want, but the other side has a voice that needs to be heared too.
I say no to summary justice.

Now Hege did formulate replies which I will post here shortly.

Lungorthin
2008-06-16, 02:55

Heges comments regarding his CAOD Post:

"thank andy for me if you see him for being fair"

"andy is right about coad and makes me regret posting it, but every mail I sent to coronor jake ast clies and molle was ignored for 2 weeks before I did post it looking back I do regrett that part. "

further comments

"You know reading threw that I have to admitt some people are right I do get upset sometimes.
But the Basterd still stole it, that said I dont want people that are freinds arguing.
It is amazing how many people I was mistaken about, it really makes me wonder ... anyway its obvious that the thing I valued most in EVE and BNC has been lost already the Titan is only a symbol of that and without it more or less meaningless.
I will always hold Coranor to his word and consider him and jake as dishonest people. I never agreed to sell it to jake I told him if I did ever sell it he could have first refusal. Although I dont know I would bet he sold his ore to evol when he and Coranor decided to keep my ship.

Anyway please tell BNC that I dont want the corp to replace or pay for my ship having read threw this I realize that BNC and you and all its other memebers are not responsable and dont owe me a thing.

Jake and Coranor have my contempt but if holding a claim against them means holding a claim against all of the good people in BNC then I drop the claim."


These are all direct quotes from Hegemon
I post them without further comments of mine.

Lungorthin
2008-06-16, 02:59

further comments from Hegemon:

well Lungo m8 I cannot believe how rabid they are becoming I can solve the isk selling question though. The amount was 80 Billion 30 for the absolution 30 for the astarte and 20 for the zelot the transactions are probly in the corporate wallet log of bnce and why astasia is claiming wrong numbers ... well I never thought they would all be so disshonest anyway I am going to send you the 80 Billion isk they claim I ebayed so that will end that argument. Keep it if you want take a few screens and bounce it back to me if you dont and I will give it away to others in chunks

[...]

oh the part about my freind that astasia refers to is true he is ... about 18 years old and always talks about selling game stuff in any game so I always talk to him about stuff like that Still dosent mean I did it its just convenient for them

These are all direct quotes from Hegemon
I post them without further comments of mine.

I do confirm that I received now 80 Billion isks from Hegemon.

Lungorthin
2008-06-16, 03:03

Heges last email to me contained the following:

Hey m8 read these posts again and have been thinking wish I could answer them all but basically isk selling didnt happen as I have proven by sending you the isk they claim I sold ... talking to my freind about selling stuff yeup we used to say things like " I wonder how much that would be worth" or "Look how much we would have if we sold that" however nothing was ever sold by me to sergent spot he is exactly right you like to leave your stuff you your freinds ... to do that you have to get it back from Coranor and Astasia well try to anyway.

to the whole bleeding the corporation. Every time they got a zelot or astarte or absolution or cap II or PDU II from the corp store at cost, the money each and every one of them saved is proffit I didnt make ... because I was bleeding them dry??

to Coranor about the Capital BPOs I " couldnt be assed with " all 40 to 50 billion isk worth of them they asked to keep them I agreed I sort of thought I was being nice instead of bleeding them dry.

To astasia about the hard earned isk I could have built and sold ships for more isk then I sold the bpos to them for and still had the bpos so he didnt hard earn any isk the bpos payed for themselves I basically bought them for him from me.

To the whole bleeding the corp dry crowd the two outposts I payed for I am sure are causing them huge losses.

To Jake noble I think of things in real value to evaluate if I am willing to trust someone with it, your right I said I dont trust you with 10 000 dollars and it seems I was right not to.

To the whole buying selling to Jake I said I was not sure what I was going to do but if I did sell it I would give him first refusal that is far from the debilitating inconvenience that is being claimed. I dont know but I suspect he sold his ore when he and coranor decided to keep my ship. They are all very welcome to report me for isk selling though I am not surprised at the "oh wait we cant" argument since they do not want to loose there best rationalization for the theft that of me ebaying things.


The Venom these 3 are spewing is appaling I certainly dont want anything to do with it so I am very done with eve I will delet my charecters as soon as I am done doing what spot says I should do .. giving assets to my freinds

These are all direct quotes from Hegemon
I post them without further comments of mine.

Lungorthin
2008-06-16, 03:24

I also received the following ingame mail from Hegemon Rast:


2008.06.16 01:23
Hey lungo mailed you in real life but forgot hear so I sent you the ISK that Astasia and Coranor and Jake are claiming I sold its the exact amount they payed me for the bpos 30 for the astarte and absolution and 20 for the zelot
keep it m8 I am going to bio mass my charecters soon as Diannabilic picks up my motherships



These are all direct quotes from Hegemon
I post them without further comments of mine.

Lord WarATron
2008-06-16, 03:40

If its true, and I have no reason to doubt it, then it does not sound like a isk seller at all. Stealing from the guy is one thing, villanising him as justification is another.

Lungorthin
2008-06-16, 03:43

I post a screenshot as proof that I received 80 Billion isks from Hegemon Rast.

http://www.goldnet.sk/eve/2008.06.16.07.27.03.jpg

DoctorGonzo
2008-06-16, 05:03

I've met Hege in real life at the 2005 fanfest and he's just a straight up nice guy, which is why I came to his defence in this thread and questioned the decision making of keeping his Titan.

Being a leader sometimes involves making difficult decisions, being a great leader sometimes involves recognising your own mistakes and being big enough to admit them - I hope our current leadership prove themselves to be the leaders we all know they can be.

Pagefault
2008-06-16, 05:12

I post a screenshot as proof that I received 80 Billion isks from Hegemon Rast.

http://www.goldnet.sk/eve/2008.06.16.07.27.03.jpg

That does not really prove anything, Lungo, apart from Hege having 80billion ISK.
It's great that you try to help and defend Hege for the given good motives, but still.. everyone has his own opinion about this.

I've met Hege in real life at the 2005 fanfest and he's just a straight up nice guy, which is why I came to his defence in this thread and questioned the decision making of keeping his Titan.

I've met Cory in real life at the 2007 BoB BBQ and he's just a straight up nice guy, which is why i'll eat more ribs and throw more logs into the fire with him.

Being a leader sometimes involves making difficult decisions, being a great leader sometimes involves recognising your own mistakes and being big enough to admit them - I hope our current leadership prove themselves to be the leaders we all know they can be.

And being a leader sometimes means to stick to his decision and deactivate the damage control.

SkaffenAmtiskaw
2008-06-16, 05:29

I've met Hege in real life at the 2005 fanfest and he's just a straight up nice guy,

I've met Cory in real life at the 2007 BoB BBQ and he's just a straight up nice guy, which is why i'll eat more ribs and throw more logs into the fire with him.

Both true for me too.

Insert standard Skaff-poast:

Let's all take a deep breath, step back. Now breathe out. Well done.

Every story: 2 sides.

Let's drop the tin-foil, put away the razor blades, douse the witch burning fires, stop spouting crap metaphors... umm... And let the people involved work things out.

We've got proof Hege is about and contactable at the moment (unfortunately unlike when this first blew up) so everyone calm down, give the dust a chance to sett...argh, more metaphors... you know what I mean. You've all got good heads or you wouldn't be in this corp, so let's use them.

Xrak
2008-06-16, 05:31

edit : I will stop posting!

Jossua
2008-06-16, 05:32

Being a leader sometimes involves making difficult decisions, being a great leader sometimes involves recognising your own mistakes and being big enough to admit them - I hope our current leadership prove themselves to be the leaders we all know they can be.

Not too sure if this comment is helpful DG. We should watch out where this thread could go to.

Now we have heard both sites (thx Lungo for the posts) and everybody should be able to check their pov by now.

But what we should not do is start a second witch hunt in the same thread.

The decision is made, wrong or right. Everybody should deal with it. And we should keep in mind what we have heard so many times before : learn, adapt and move on winning.

Personally I did not loose confidence in our management-team. Though decision was made but I can follow the arguments for it.

Silvero
2008-06-16, 05:34

Nice going DG perhaps Cflux was right after all, and i reviewed his remarks with the bigest distaste.

But now i don't know, perhaps its time to cut the ties....

DoctorGonzo
2008-06-16, 05:45

But now i don't know, perhaps its time to cut the ties....

I think you're probably spot on there Silvero.

DoctorGonzo
2008-06-16, 07:55

You guys are absolutely right, my posts are probably not helpful at all and I will stop posting on this subject.

I do feel very strongly on this particular issue, but equally frustrated because I don’t have the time to play and influence in game actions.

Anyway I’ll stop trying to tell people how they should react to different players or situations in such as strong manner as it doesn’t really help the current leadership, members or me.

Lord Panther
2008-06-16, 08:30

Thank you Lungo for helping to set the record straight.

I can't say Heg is a good friend, I seldom had contact with him but from his reply to you and his urging that we all move on it's clear to me that he's a class act.

Linkel
2008-06-16, 08:43

Well after reading the posts, I can only assume miscommunication was the problem here. Well the only thing we can do now is simply, learn, adapt and move on. Both sides got burned out of this, there is no denying that. But we as a corporation have got to learn from this. This is a silly mistake that could have been handled differently.

But I trust in the leadership to learn from this incident and move on. It's what makes the BNC strong guys.

Onchas Erivvia
2008-06-16, 10:28

Now crucify me if you want but I took the liberty to send a transcript of this thread to Hege to give him the chance to reply through me if he wanted.

I'm still trying to process this.

I'm VERY upset that you copied content from this forum to people outside this corporation. That constitutes a tremendous violation of trust.

I think you're a decent guy Lungo, and I fully appreciate and understand what you're trying to accomplish, but why are you throwing other members of this corporation under the bus in the process?

I realize that you were just looking out for your friend, but you've stabbed the rest of us in the back in the process. I find it very, very difficult to support you after this fundamental violation of trust.

Avenger OfBlood
2008-06-16, 10:50

I play Eve so I can blow stuff up with my RL friends when we find the time.
For me personally, I leave all this drama stuff to the leaders of our Corp and will follow what they decide.
It is unfortunate that this all happened, but again, leadership's problem, not mine ... I am not important enough to give an opinion

That being said ... if Amp and Tristan ever leave Eve for any reason ... can you guys deposit 80Bil in my account please

Nick Curso
2008-06-16, 11:39

mmm not cool if hege deletes his char.

Galum Arfamon
2008-06-16, 12:15

mmm not cool if hege deletes his char.

That's what I don't understand. If he is leaving the game completely, what did he want the titan back for?

DoctorGonzo
2008-06-16, 12:27

To decide what he wanted to do with it and the fucked up ironic mess of this situation is that it probably would have come to the corp anyway.

Lord WarATron
2008-06-16, 12:28

That's what I don't understand. If he is leaving the game completely, what did he want the titan back for?

He built a titan and had it stolen and the only corp in which he knows anybody calls him ends up calling him a isk seller and accuses him of screwing the corp over despite the massive contributions he made (let us not forget he gave the corp free usage of the t2 bpos back when t2 bpos earned as much as Dyso moons do today)

Everthing he put his faith into in this game ended up betraying him so tbh, its not surprising why he is deleting his char then. I think its pretty obvious he was not going to delete the char had this whole incident not happened.

Montohotep
2008-06-16, 13:08

I'm still trying to process this.

I'm VERY upset that you copied content from this forum to people outside this corporation. That constitutes a tremendous violation of trust.

I think you're a decent guy Lungo, and I fully appreciate and understand what you're trying to accomplish, but why are you throwing other members of this corporation under the bus in the process?

I realize that you were just looking out for your friend, but you've stabbed the rest of us in the back in the process. I find it very, very difficult to support you after this fundamental violation of trust.

start jihad aganist lungo perhaps ?
i dont see anything wrong about hedge reading this tbh, since he was one of the founders.
I do not see this as a "fundmental violation of trust" nor as "being stabbed in the back" so chill.

Sergeant Spot
2008-06-16, 13:30

Lungo still has my trust.

Its not a cut and dry issue.

In both RL and in games, a person CAN exceed their authority, but they best as hell have good reasons. Lungo DID exceed his authority, but I think a lot of folks, "given the details", are willing to let it slide. I know I am. Exceeding your authority is dangerous however, so I dont recomend making a habit of it.

enjoi
2008-06-16, 13:54

At the end of the day, there's no content in this thread that hasn't already been relayed to Hege by his friends, so there's probably nothing he'll read in it he doesn't already know. I do however think that pasting anything from our forums to someone not in the corp is a breach of trust. You wouldn't post all the smack about goons on here to them just because you sympathized with them would you?

And I'm not going to try and type my opinion up on here, because at the end of the day it achieves absolutely nothing. What I will say here is two things.

The decision has been made. It's over with. Deal with it.

stfu. Arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing when all the key factors are already decided. Failute to stfu will result in having to stare at a naked picture of Spathi for several hours as punishment.

Resipsa Loquitor
2008-06-16, 13:56

Well, it seems once again I was paying attention to the wrong board and missed the debate; however, being late to a debate has never stopped me from chiming in.

I offer two arguments: 1. The plex from which he generated his wealth was a corporate asset and, therefore, it is proper for the corporation to retain/restrain assets from which it has an ownership tie even when confounding personal interests are involved; and 2. WWHD?

Part 1:

In my younger eve days, I was a slave to a 10/10 plex. Now, true, I was a willing slave that went happily bouncing into duty (at first), but a slave to the complex churning system nevertheless. I was proud to be roaming around 0. I had many friends. I was part of a small group called “ARC” – Agent Runners and Complexers. I was a specialist, if you will.

Although maybe not all BNC members know this, but many BNC.E folks have "odd" game interests. I'm one of those "odd" folks - one of the confused "all rounders". I love gang pvp but not so much solo pvp (unless I'm pissed, PISSED!, or trapped [beware of me in an Eris]). I mine. I rat. I build. And, at one time, I complexed. A lot.

When I was in ASCN (yeah, yeah), I was part of an EDF/VAF team that farmed the D-F 10/10 Sansha complex every post-DT. I'd wake up at 5am local to play eve for 1-2 hours before going to work, messing around with orange space tornadoes and primarily chewing up faction bs-s while keeping an eye out for interlopers like RA-alts and Stain Empire. We fought them almost every day – players that were more highly skilled than me and keeping them away from our prize. It was . . . a hard way to play the game. I probably did it for longer than most, even though there were a few others that did it far longer than me.

After a while, it wasn't about the money (the bounties weren't all that great - maybe 10M per trip). What it was about was helping the corporation and the alliance. It was about getting rare items that could be fitted to capital ships (centum, I believe) and getting bpcs --> capital components --> capital ships. We estimated that the plex generated 12-15B per week if all runs were taken, plus bounties (which were kept by players). We viewed the plex as an alliance asset under the care of the two corporations that defended it and invested assets in the area (station construction).

Now, I haven't read all the responses, but I know full well that there will be at least one response regarding the plex not being a corporate or alliance asset. I fundamentally disagree. The complex, like the asteroids, the rats, the moons, and anything else that can be extracted from the area and exploited, are the corporation’s and alliances’ property, and we take at the pleasure of the governing body. How so, you may ask? At some point in time BNC and BoB came into the area and laid claim to the area. They may have been challenged as to title – maybe not. Regardless, BNC/BoB claimed the area and took over control of the assets – in effect, they became the governing bodies over the area. Later, they developed assets in the area for support (station) and encouraged settlement of the area (moon mining, jump bridges, roid and rat mining). They developed rules and relationships for their members to derive assets and income (and taxes), of which the members agreed to abide by to extract personal value. The person running the 10/10 did this too.

Now, one may argue “well, no one is running the complex, so why not me?” A valid argument. Anyone can run that complex. Interlopers could come in and attempt to run that complex without the government’s permission. This is true. As well, anyone can come in and mine the asteroids or shoot the rats (sound familiar?). This is a derivative of the “capture” rule where one hunts an animal – Ferae naturae – and kills it the (now dead) animal is yours. However, there is a problem with that: you’ve killed the animal on BNC land. Did you have permission to go on that land and do that? Did you trespass to capture? Remember, ultimately, the government controls that asset and access to it.

We gain our wealth and enjoy our access to 0 at the pleasure of the corporation and alliance, which we are all a part of. The government would eventually respond to any hostile interference with its sovereign claim (because openly taking without permission is a challenge to sovereignty) by ejecting the interlopers through force/intimidation/bribes. Or dropping two mommas on top of the gate plex (as we did to Stain Empire one day). Running a complex is done with permission of the corporation and alliance – otherwise they have the right to kick your ass.

And here is the key to the argument: No one is running the plex? SO WHAT? Even if no one is running the complex (or mining or ratting), the government can choose not to do so for whatever reason – it does not reduce the sovereign claim over the asset. An asset, even one that is only truly exploited through capture, does not need to be exploited all the time if at all. Not capturing an asset does not reduce its claim to it. It is simply not taken and used. In fact, sometimes not exploiting an asset is necessary to ensure future production (e.g., restricting hunting season during breeding; letting asteroids regenerate after heavy mining).

So, is it really a stretch to say that something that is captured that is transformed into another form that the government can’t reclaim its use? If the veldspar, rat loot, moon minerals, and complex assets are the governments’, can the government not reclaim its assets (if necessary) if it is transformed into a titan? Confounding aside (in which some compensation is due), if you don’t think the government can’t seize your stuff if they determine they need it, you’re living in a fantasy world. They can.

So, to summarize this point: the wealth you derive from your activities in 0.0 is at the discretion of the corporation and alliance. That discretion is exercised by permission to access certain materials and areas (moons, roids, rats, complexes) when the government permits you to do so. Although there is investment of a personal nature, the government can ultimately deny access to the assets and require its return due to superseding claim in right and time, minus compensation due for personal improvement in the asset.

Point 2:

WWHD? What Would Herculite Do?

Herc is my home boy. I came to this corporation with a few folks that I knew: Dark Matter, Niraco, Herc. Herc and I started around the same time in EDF Academy (yeah, yeah). He doesn’t appear to play anymore, but I really do hope one day he will return.

Herc has been my counter-balance in this game, and I do miss debating with him on a variety of issues. He has the ability to acid-cut to the heart of the matter. For a person that was not trained to be a lawyer, he would be quite effective in litigation.

I heard his voice the other night in my head when I started reading the topic on eve-o. He would likely ask me this question given the situation:

“In a game where there is no ability to seek an impartial tribunal to have a third party judge and return an asset or vindicate a decision made against you, and especially in a game that celebrates and encourages piracy and deception of all sorts and manner, why would you voluntarily surrender an asset with such real life value and in-game dominance and prestige?”

This question, of course, can only be answered in a non-insulting manner one way, which would be “trust”.

Then it would evoke the WWHD question:

“What did he do to cause him to fail?”

This is the fundamental question that he asked himself (and asked me) when we’d lose a ship or a fight. What did we do wrong to permit the other person to win? 95% of the time it came down to that we did something we shouldn’t have done or weren’t prepared to do – jump in blind into a system, caught scrambled by a rat, didn’t recognize the ship we were going up against, didn’t appreciate the timeliness or staleness of intel, relied too much on friendly numbers in local, etc.

So, where did he fail? That has been answered by Ast and Cor. Although a long-time member, he didn’t have the trust of the current leadership. He relied on trust but didn’t engender it in others that mattered. He also didn’t work directly with the person he made the loan to directly to receive the item back directly at the time when the person needed to give it back. That’s an item worth taking a little personal time off of work to go get, imho. He didn’t know his leadership – evoking thoughts of something one of them personally detests. There are others, but these are the most important.

Was it wrong to take it? Only without some compensation according to Point 1, but to say he has no fault on his own shoulders for putting himself in this situation is to ignore Point 2.

I can’t do that.

BRING ON THOSE NAKED PICTURES, SPATHI!!!

Pagefault
2008-06-16, 14:16

The decision has been made. It's over with. Deal with it.

stfu. Arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing when all the key factors are already decided. Failute to stfu will result in having to stare at a naked picture of Spathi for several hours as punishment.

/signed

Stop bitching and yelling at each other. This is not your concern anymore, so don't start a personal vendetta over this and go bite your dog instead, if you need to get rid of some unneeded hate.
Just don't try to blame other corpmembers for the situation, just because they agree with a decision that has been made, and not even by themselves.

Xrak
2008-06-16, 14:16

seriously SERIOUSLY TL;DR

edit: damn you page you ruined my anti res post.

ozaloni
2008-06-16, 14:23

I have been away as you all know picking flowers and killing gnomes! However, I was shocked to come back and find this drama within the corp and spread all over COAD.

However, I've finally been able to get my head around the exact events and would like to add my bit!

From my POV, as Andy/Corrie/Ast have said 7BX is a BOB asset. This asset has been given to BNC for various reasons (as other assest's in our space were given to the other corps). However the idea behind it was to fund the corp/alliance. Now as the only person I know to of shown ANY interest (aside from the swed's) was Cleist. He purely wanted to make sure it was run BY US and not by any fgt's.

So when Hedge lent his titan to Molle, which I thought was totally awesome, it made perfect sense. As this was a (/wrists, wanted to write guild) corp/alliance asset that would actually GET TO BE USED!

With this in mind the profits and such should, IMO, belong to the corp. I've read too many times of how much a pussy hedge was when it came to lifting a finger and actually FIGHTING !!!! Damn give me the titan (joke) and I'll jump into every hostile camp I can find (or am allowed to ).

You talk of property rights, (concept made funny when taken into context but whatever well if it wasn't for us letting him use the plex, he wouldn't of gotten the chance to gain anything. He owned corp assets (BPO's) that he had obtained by doing a bob plex.... just how much of that (Maybe something that should of been organised or if was detailed) would be allowed to keep for himself , % cut etc.

Needless to say, go give, you get, yes Hedge did give a lot, but when asked to put his money where the fight was, well he chickened out. Would I of done the same being in corrie's position, yes!

ozaloni
2008-06-16, 14:25

BTW skaff - pls fix the site so that I can read what i type in replies without having to change the colour

Xrak
2008-06-16, 14:29

I have been away as you all know picking flowers and killing gnomes! However, I was shocked to come back and find this drama within the corp and spread all over COAD.

However, I've finally been able to get my head around the exact events and would like to add my bit!

From my POV, as Andy/Corrie/Ast have said 7BX is a BOB asset. This asset has been given to BNC for various reasons (as other assest's in our space were given to the other corps). However the idea behind it was to fund the corp/alliance. Now as the only person I know to of shown ANY interest (aside from the swed's) was Cleist. He purely wanted to make sure it was run BY US and not by any fgt's.

So when Hedge lent his titan to Molle, which I thought was totally awesome, it made perfect sense. As this was a (/wrists, wanted to write guild) corp/alliance asset that would actually GET TO BE USED!

With this in mind the profits and such should, IMO, belong to the corp. I've read too many times of how much a pussy hedge was when it came to lifting a finger and actually FIGHTING !!!! Damn give me the titan (joke) and I'll jump into every hostile camp I can find (or am allowed to ).

You talk of property rights, (concept made funny when taken into context but whatever well if it wasn't for us letting him use the plex, he wouldn't of gotten the chance to gain anything. He owned corp assets (BPO's) that he had obtained by doing a bob plex.... just how much of that (Maybe something that should of been organised or if was detailed) would be allowed to keep for himself , % cut etc.

Needless to say, go give, you get, yes Hedge did give a lot, but when asked to put his money where the fight was, well he chickened out. Would I of done the same being in corrie's position, yes!


So people can actually read it :P

Lord Panther
2008-06-16, 14:34

A very long post and an interesting arguement. You are correct. The government, (BNC) has the right to control assets within its claimed territory.

However, in this case, for whatever reason, the government made an agreement with Heg granting him control of the complex. The government decided that at point in time it was beneficial to have Heg in charge of the 10/10.

It did not apparently demand much in return outside of Heg's loyalty and his time, which he freely gave. From time to time, the government asked Heg to purchase BPO's and other items, to put up outposts and build things the government needed. Heg obliged.

So the question for some is not whether or not
the government has the right to revoke a franchise as it has done here. Nor is the government's right to renegotiate a deal, demand more payments in returned for continued use of assets etc.

The question from some is whether or not the government has the right to unilaterally change a deal on a retroactive basis.

Nick Curso
2008-06-16, 15:03

all i have to say cause its far too messy for me is lung gimmie some isk!

Lord WarATron
2008-06-16, 15:26

They main issue was imponding the titan. That is understandable given the circimstances. However what I think is pretty dishonerable is

1. No intention to compensate the guy. Hedge did not want compensation, however, thats irrelevant since there was no intent before lungo's post.

2. Slander campaign against him baised on third party assuptions

3. Justifications made out of any old random exceuse. Im sorry here, but the accusations was that hedge was going to Ebay Titan/Sell to Russion/ Use it in low sec/whatever. These all seem like assuptions. The rest of the justifications only exist because its easy to say after the event. If they were a problem, like his 10/10 plex running, then that should have been brought up while he was running them, not now behind his back after booting him.


It is one thing impounding the titan, its another starting a hate campaign against the guy.

cleisthenes2
2008-06-16, 15:30

I stand by coranor and astasia on their decision. I neither support nor happy with the situation.

There is nothing left to argue on this topic as its done and dusted, you are allowed your opinions to this point. You have your own choice what you want to do inlight of this event.

Just on a note, if hege got his Titan and his tech 2 bpo, you will not be so gifted in flying tech 2 ships so freely and having somewhere to call home to npc and make money from. I have every right to that titan as any player along side me helped defend that 10/10 during hostiles trying to gank hege.

I put time and effort for over a year to help hege defend it. I owe my thanks to hege for putting his effort into running the plex and helping me out when in trouble, however trying to wreck bnc/bnc.e so much so which might have caused the corps to non-exist (might be over stating this fact, nothing in impossible) and using BoB sanctioned systems to build his own assets for free, well as far as i can see it Titan is ours.

Also lord warton please stop arguing on here say and what you have read, you was not there to what happened. Wait until a full post is done by the ceo's than you can give your 2 cents

Niraco79
2008-06-16, 15:31

So in the end i am still right...We should had kept the titan but handled better the situation.

Now Res your post shows u are an attorney. I don`t know wtf are u talking about but damn it sounded so nice and shiny.

And Lungo gimme some isk, i am always broke. Do not give to Nick, he will spend it on porn in Nol station

ozaloni
2008-06-16, 15:41

Yep Cleist! Like I said, I knew that you, myself and a few others were busy helping hege with his plex when it was getting overrun. So I take offense at the current actions he has taken!. Some thanks

Skilo
2008-06-16, 15:53

(...) Would I of done the same being in corrie's position, yes!(...)


I've already heard storys about you and corrie and positions.

So do you change positions?

Mr Nottcase
2008-06-16, 16:49

i think we need to get back to shooting stuff again

ozaloni
2008-06-16, 16:59

depends, whoever gets to your neck first really skilo

Resipsa Loquitor
2008-06-16, 18:34

I was going to respond to LP's question for the sake of scholarly discussion; however, it's best to let this go. Most people don't view my diatribes as "fun" even though I like debating.

I'll just say these three things:

1. My argument is sloppy and rushed - feel free to punch holes.
2. I support my leaders and my corp mates.
3. Let's get ready to shoot something together after BBQ.

BTW, miss playing with you Nic! Been a while.

florio
2008-06-16, 18:56

imho:
Wrong decision.
Utterly disappointed.
Surprised at Astasia - thought you were made of stronger stuff.

Montohotep
2008-06-16, 21:33

i think we need to get back to shooting stuff again

and ASAP

Zuril Nair
2008-06-17, 01:27

I'd like to post something in this thread ...

... thanks!

Lkptum Drtom
2008-06-17, 06:54

I just joined BNC 4 months ago so my point of view is kinda "neutral" let's say, I don't know Hege, and never heard of him. What I do know Is that some people aren't happy with the decision, and some support it.

Like someone said earlier if you don't support the decision and don't like it nobody is stoping you from leaving.If your staying and then when something bad happens in 1 month or 2 or 1 year or whatever... to attack the people that made the decision you're not in the right place..

It's time to move on, learn , adapt and stop whining for fuck sake the decision isn't going to change because of it.It was made period!

Let's move on as team the way we've been all the time

slip66
2008-06-17, 08:39

I think the correct decsiion was made.

Maybe it could have been handled better but thats hindsight.

Not sure about the ebay assertations but irregardless IMO his job in BNC/e was to farm the plex for the betterment of the corp.


Thanks lungo for posting his comments so we can see his pov. Even if I disagree with his pov, I still took the time to read them.

p.s. I even read Res TL;DR post :P

axels2000
2008-06-17, 10:26

I just joined BNC 4 months ago so ...
Let's move on as team the way we've been all the time

Hallelujah. I have been in the corp for a bit over a year and still do not know who Hege was. Except that emo post on CAOD. As Blacklight said: everyone need to care about what's going on in the corp and have an opinion.

I was visiting my aunt who lives in London neighborhood two summers ago. She took me to this beautiful cemetery near the river. She was so damn emotional. She was showing me the graves and talking about people - both dead and alive. I love my aunt and I am a very polite guy. So I just kept on smiling and thinking about Eve in the meantime. Did I care about all these people she was so emo about? Kind of. In a sense that they seemed to be important to my aunt. Some appeared to be nice people, some were more evil in my aunt's words. The truth was: they are more like ghosts than real people to me.

My opinion (ah yes, everyone NEEDS to hear my opinion) is that Hege is one of the characters from that cemetery. He seems to be important to people I care about in BNC, but he IS a ghost to me. BNC changed. BNC will change even more. As we were leaving the cemetery I looked back and I saw a bunch of tombstones: some of the tombstones were very nice. Some were sort of shabby. The tomb stone that Hege is leaving behind him is sort of ugly.

PS. Take Cosmo's titan and sell it to ???? for roubles. :twisted:

PSS. "If it was me" statement: When I "quit the game" three years ago, I gave all my stuff to the corp I was in. That included t2-lottery-won-for-2000RP Prototype Cloak BPO. I were dumb. But that's me and my damn commie opinions.

PSSS. I was visiting my uncle who lives near Giza in Egypt. He was showing me some very nice tombstones in a middle of a desert. They are sort of geometrical and pointy. Some of the tombstones were tall and beautiful, some were...

Pesadel0
2008-06-17, 10:51

I would like to post something, i only know and trust cliest,jake,coranor and astasia and the various directors that work for and with us .

Having been in a leadership position in a small alliance i would like to tell that for me they did the best decision ,and i would do the same thing ,and i did .

This boils down to friendship this s only Pixles and fairy dust i would give all my money to the corp if they asked me too and presented a good plan to and to reach a certain corp goal.

If the situation could have been handled better ?Yes but it wasn't so i don´t really care,my trust in our leadership didn't move a inch.

This is just my opinion so take it with a grain of salt...

reverend mitterak
2008-06-17, 12:10

I am sorry that this is the post I need to make after my time away.

I admit, this course of events has shocked me to the core. For those of you who do not know me, let me introduce myself, I am a former director/executive of BNC and one of the older members of the corp. I have flown and played (now two games) with Hege for over 4.5 years. As noted on the first page of this post, I have had my differences with Hege, but I have come to understand the origins on those differences and respect him for all he has done.

For you new guys who didn't know Hege, there are some things you need to know before posting anything more in this thread.

Hege was not your typical Black Nova from the start. Most of us spent the majority of our time on the front lines, away from the industrial centers, only donning our mining lasers when we had lost our final scorpion or apocalypses and were in desperate need of replacement hardware. Hege was the opposite. The man was a machine of industrial might and quickly established himself as a backbone of the corporation. While we were on the front lines, he worked tirelessly to build up the corporation's industrial assets, buying things not only for his own use but also for the free use of the corporation and in some instances the alliance as a whole (mind you many of his first accolades took place well before the formation of BoB). Few of us had the focus to do what he did on a daily a basis, and none of us accomplished what he did over the course of his career. Yes, some have followed, but few accomplished what he did. Most importantly, every single corp member for the last 4 years has befitted from his hard work. You still feel the impact of his hard work today.

Much of what has made Black Nova great, the reasons you were drawn to this corporation to begin with stem from all he has given. These impressive accomplishments include:

The first active Dreadnaughts and the tfirst offensive to take down POS- Driven by 3 pilots including Hege all impossible without his industrial backbone).

Several of our current Stations (I believe our first egg was his but I am not 100% certain). Most of these stations were paid for by Hege and build for our benefit.

Our first corporation Mothership.

Our first corporation Titan.

These accomplishments do not even touch on his BPOs- including tech 2 and component BPOs which have driven the corp to the place it is today. He has lent his assets for years without question- and the corp would undoubtedly retain much of what he has donated over the years (considerably more than 90% of the corporation has ever contributed, myself included). Much of what makes you proud to be BNC today can be credited to Hege.

I am not writing this to discredit the accomplishments of others or the hard work others put in to help Hege get where he did. Astasia quickly rose through our industrial ranks and accomplished much of what hege did and continues to contribute to the corp as a leader in ways Hege never did. That simply was not his playing style.

Instead Hege chose to labor in ways most of us could not imagine. He spent literally hundreds of hours farming, mining - doing the work none of us had the mental capacity to do to earn his assets, the titan included. He applied more time than any of you can dream to build those ships and compile his assets. Usually the man ran 4 accounts simultaneously. While some claim they helped defend 7bx from invaders, I was one of those people too, remember that hege defended that portion of the map solo 90% of the time using 4 chars at the same time. This is a nearly impossible task. He did the hard work none of us could. Yes did he occasionally need help, of course we all do, but when it came to fighting he would show up 4x that which any of us could provide. Was he a front liner, no. But he helped where he could- never backed down from a fight, and his help kept the rest of us in the front line in ways most of you will never know.

Finally, Hege was not going to Ebay anything. Has the man thought about it? How many of you have at one point thought about selling your characters? How many of you have benefited from the sale of characters during your time in Eve? Some of the old timers from the corp sold their characters for money at one point and were welcomed back with open arms. Did he consider sales of his character when he was inactive and saw the potential for a nice payout? Probably. Would hege have ever acted on that impulse. Not in a million years. His characters are worth too much- too much to himself for him to sell. He would rather see them destroyed than sell them to someone else and betray others trust.

He has now done just that, from what I know, his characters have now been sent in for biomass recycling.

This matter should have been cut and dry, even if it did make our industrial lives a little less comfortable for the time being.

The corp's betrayal has ended one of the greatest career's in eve.

Avon
2008-06-17, 13:15

I really like Hege.
I, like many others, went to his aid when his plex was threatened.
The setup was not ideal, but it was ultimately good for the corp ... and that is they key.
Once someone starts putting themselves before the corp I tend to get annoyed.
When they actually try to weaken the corp for their own benefit, frankly they can fuck off.

Hege pushed too far for my liking, and that is that.

I know exactly where Andy and Steve are comming from, and to an extent I agree. It *was* his stuff, and he did earn it. But it isn't like he didn't get help.
If he had sold the Titan and got banned then that would have been fine ... except he'd still have his $$ and we still wouldn't have the Titan.
I am more uncomfortable with him screwing over the corp for his own gain than I am with taking his Titan (even if I'm not happy about that either).

To be honest, if Hege had been the man I thought he was, this wouldn't be happening anyway.
I wouldn't have expected to walk away with the Titan, even if I had personally funded it from running lvl1 missions on an empire alt. If I was off to another corp to use it, then maybe .. but if I wasn't going to be playing then it would stay at home.
My home.
BNC.

reverend mitterak
2008-06-17, 13:30

To be honest, if Hege had been the man I thought he was, this wouldn't be happening anyway.
I wouldn't have expected to walk away with the Titan, even if I had personally funded it from running lvl1 missions on an empire alt. If I was off to another corp to use it, then maybe .. but if I wasn't going to be playing then it would stay at home.
My home.
BNC.

Avon- you do not have the facts straight. At no time did Hege ever say he was going to leave with the Titan. In fact having been away from the game for so long, the excitement of the new expansion inspired him to come back. He wished to come back as a part of Black Nova and begin using his ships again. In what manner, well that's up to him because they are his.

I do not have any saved convos all I have are the conversations I have had with others to rely on. From what I understand, Coranor blocked Hege after a short convo, during which Hege contacted Coranor in hopes of returning to the corp.

I would like some evidence produced to prove that this accusation is in fact not true. I would also like some hard proof that hege was intending to take the titan away from the corp.

It is my full understanding that Hege was looking to return to BNC with open arms and take his place amongst the team after having a break. Given all he has done for us, he should have been granted freedom to do as he pleased with his ship.

Montohotep
2008-06-17, 13:34

our first egg was paid by astasia when he mined his ass off to build the 39p outpost, our second one however (7bx) was paid by hedge.

reverend mitterak
2008-06-17, 13:39

our first egg was paid by astasia when he mined his ass off to build the 39p outpost, our second one however (7bx) was paid by hedge.

And as I stated- Astasia must be applauded for his hard work. Most of us can remember his tireless strip mining. Thank you for that clarification. I believe it might be important for everyone to know who paid for which outposts.

reverend mitterak
2008-06-17, 14:03

Lungo- Thank you for posting Hege's words here. Thank you for forwarding him this entire transcript. I hope everyone can realize the gravity of this decision.

To all the new members of the corp I hope you can see the true generosity of one of your former corp mates.

Avon
2008-06-17, 14:04

Avon- you do not have the facts straight. At no time did Hege ever say he was going to leave with the Titan. In fact having been away from the game for so long, the excitement of the new expansion inspired him to come back. He wished to come back as a part of Black Nova and begin using his ships again. In what manner, well that's up to him because they are his.


Rev, you are turning this in to an arguement that I am not interested in getting involved with.
Hege didn't use his Titan effectively when he piloted it, and I see no reason to think he would use it to benefit the corp if he became active again.
I don't remember reading any "I'm back and ready to kick arse, boys" posts either ..

I did see a guy who had lost all interest in Eve since the removal of static plexes, and who put himself before the corp.
That doesn't make him a bad person, it just isn't the sort of person I am, or the sort of person I like to have around me.

I'm not exactly celebrating the taking of his Titan, but I'm not going to beat myself up over it either.
He did just fine out of the corp.
Like he said, he could buy another Titan tomorrow. It isn't like being in BNC had been bad for him.
Plenty of people have put in a great deal of effort in to this corp .. but they don't have quite as much to show for it as Hege. If I were him, I'd be more than happy with my situation. If anything, I'd be feeling guilty about doing so much better than those who put their stuff on the line every day just so I could line my pockets.

Avon
2008-06-17, 14:06

Lungo- Thank you for posting Hege's words here. Thank you for forwarding him this entire transcript. I hope everyone can realize the gravity of this decision.

We usually kick spies.

reverend mitterak
2008-06-17, 14:24

We each have our own ways of getting ahead in the game of Eve. As a free market based game, every one has a roll to fill. We have BNC for a reason and we established BNC.E for a reason. Never, did Hege sit back and say, I want to line my pockets at the expense of others. He used his assets for the good of everyone in the corp. If you can't see that and instead honestly think that he did what he did to simply make himself rich then I don't think there can be any reasoning with you. Every member of bob who has had a capitol ship built has benefited from Hege, every member of Bob who has had a super cap has benefited. You benefit from his tech 2 ships daily. His way of playing was his way of enjoying the game- we each have our own and not everyone loves to pew pew. When asked though- Hege always helped. Was he always the front line man? No, he was an industrialist through and through. Does that make him any less of a team member? Absolutely not- in fact for a long time Hege was possibly the corp's most prized member- even if not the most visible.

Xrak
2008-06-17, 14:34

Time to move on Rev.

enjoi
2008-06-17, 14:50

Jesus is this thread still here? I'd forgotten all about it.

Hint hint.

[Dreamatone]

WarATron should start a internal faction and rebel against Coraner . Oh and someone should petition Hege, if the GMs confiscated BoBs T2 library . Oh, and it looks like he deleted his character ingame.

[jellyfish]

(05:25:06) (@Coranor) anyway we bought out the t2 bpos...

Shocking

[Torshin]

kug produces once again. very interesting thread and sheds some light on a corp many do not know much about and its inner workings.

[Wesley]

The internal debate is good, some really good people BNC given the quality of some of the posts...it's quite clear the whole situation was handled poorly...and lots of justification is being done post shitstorm....

[k]

Blacklight's gone for good

[k]

New posts in that same thread:

2008-06-17, 15:58
If he had sold the Titan and got banned then that would have been fine ... except he'd still have his $$ and we still wouldn't have the Titan.
I am more uncomfortable with him screwing over the corp for his own gain

I do not think its that fair saying that he was going to sell the titan for $$, given lungo's posts and the fact he is giving his wealth away for free and reprocessing his char insted of ebaying it. But let us put that to the side.

Could you tell me a bit more about how hedge was "screwing over the corp for his own gain"?

I am not aware of the details of him screwing over bnc/bnce, so it would help people more if you can clarify the details a bit more.
Xrak
2008-06-17, 16:32

I do not think its that fair saying that he was going to sell the titan for $$, given lungo's posts and the fact he is giving his wealth away for free and reprocessing his char insted of ebaying it. But let us put that to the side.

Could you tell me a bit more about how hedge was "screwing over the corp for his own gain"?

I am not aware of the details of him screwing over bnc/bnce, so it would help people more if you can clarify the details a bit more.

You just ignored the single most important word in Avon's sentence. Can you guess the word?

Hint, begins with I and ends in F.

Onchas Erivvia
2008-06-17, 16:33

The title of this thread is “the other side of the story”, well, I’m going to give you another side, another perspective.

I’ve been in this corporation for more than a year. I’ve been online at least 40 hours a week (and usually more) for that period of time.

That 110bn+ isk that was generated to pay off Hege, that came from my labour and the labour of the other active members of this corporation.

I have repeatedly posted that I am not taking a side publicly on the decision made by Coranor and Astasia. I have told my CEO (Astasia) exactly what I think about it. But that’s as far as it should go.

I have offered practical and pragmatic solutions to this problem. I have said that I am willing to help those players who believe that Hege deserves further compensation generate that compensation. I will absolutely abide by the decisions of our leadership, but I will help those who want to work as a corp, under the banner of this corporation, make right on what they see as an injustice.

So I am utterly and completely sick and tired of reading from inactive members, people who I have not seen over the course of my year in this corporation, people who have not been involved in busting their asses to repay our debts, people who were not involved in the war over the last year and the siege of Delve over the last six months. People who risked nothing and lost nothing, come in here and dictate how people like my should spend our time, dictate what our obligations are. This is NOT my presenting my opinion on the decision, it is me on expressing my opinion on a particular cadre of inactive members.

This isn’t directed at Lungo, who is a valuable and active member of this corporation, or other active members who are prepare to live with us and the consequences of the direction they’re advocating for and work together to overcome the burdens of that will result. Lungo, you were dead wrong for copying this thread and posting it ANYWHERE, but I completely respect your efforts here. I continue to be dedicated to helping you and anyone else deal with this situation.

However, there is a crew of inactive forum-warriors who are throwing around what they believe to be their moral authority.

I’ll tell you folks, when you sit there telling me what great friends you are of Hege and how you were there to watch him generate that isk, all it demonstrates to me is your culpability in this situation. It means that you sat around and allowed one man generate the wealth that ran this corporation. It means YOU are responsible for not pitching in and doing your part. It means that YOU did not keep the leadership of the day accountable for their (poor) decisions.

Again, I am willing to help members of this corporation who perceive that there is a debt yet to be paid off by this corporation, work within the boundaries of what our current leadership will allow to help address their concerns.

These assets you keep talking about still exist, Delve still exists in BoB's hands, because of the sacrifice WE made. You are able to sit here and talk about this because WE made sure this corporation, this alliance still exists.

Unless you are an active member of this corporation, unless you were there for the last six months, the last year, giving up sleep to be on late into the night to out-number Goons in the primetime, or up first thing in the morning to siege or rep a tower coming out, unless you were there to pass on crucial intel that determined the outcome of battles, unless you were there building up the assets and wealth of this corporation I am simply not interested in hearing your opinion.

UNLESS, you do one thing: don’t just sit there and try to dictate to us how we should be spending our time, but also tell us how YOU are going to be actively involved in solving the problem YOU are responsible for helping to create. You can bitch all you want and moralize all you want, as long as you log in and join us to collectively move forward.


There’s an old saying that I never really put much credence in before, but there has never been a situation where it’s been more true: “If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.” And you know folks, unless you’re prepared to be part of the solution don’t bother trying to tell those of us who have to live with the consequences of the the direction you're advocating, a situation that YOU are culpable in creating, what we should be doing.


From my perspective, as someone who IS an active member of this corporation, who has been sweating it out for the last year, who was there to fight off the siege of Delve, for me, this is nothing more than a classic put up or shut up.

Because, honestly folks, if you're not prepared to step up, get in-game, and actively solve this problem together as a corporation, what are you going to do? Protest by not logging on? Not help us defeat the coalition?

enjoi
2008-06-17, 17:25

.

Montohotep
2008-06-17, 17:30

i thought you liked posting, but it turned out to be shit posting tbh.

Blacklight
2008-06-17, 17:36

So it comes to this cliche does it? If you haven't logged on recently your opinions don't matter?

You do know that an inactive BNC member owns and pays for the alliance executor account don't you?

You do know that these forums and the BoB forums are run and paid for by inactive members don't you?

That inactive members still socialise and enjoy friendships with people in this corp and across BoB, this corp and alliance that they put just as much effort into during their tenure as you have recently Onchas?

Funny how some of us that are inactive still find ways, even if only small, to remain a part of a community we love(d).

You do know that once upon a time this corp actually had a sense of community that included all it's members, active, inactive, new and old don't you?

You do also know that some of us sweat blood and tears across years to build the corp and alliance you enjoy, not to mention actually take the territory that you're so keen to remind us we haven't done enough to defend over the last year?

Very neat of you to criticise decisions made in the past when you weren't around to make them, don't know what the other options were or the context in which decisions were made - and you have the cheek to criticise inactive forum warriors for voicing our opinions. You sir are a hypocrite.

Do I belittle your opinions because you've been in the corp 1/4 the amount of time I have? Or have 1/3 of the active time in the corp that I have?

You've two less old timers to post their unwanted opinions now anyway, so you can spout your vitriol to and about people who have put several times as much time and effort into this corp as you have without further interruption from us.

Nick Curso
2008-06-17, 17:38

This is getting outta had stop bitching u little pricks!

Ure like a bunch of women

ozaloni
2008-06-17, 17:38

There are a select few that your comments apply to Onchas, however almost everyone I know in this post has done their bit and I stand by them 100%... REGARDLESS of which side of this current argument they wish to stand on.

I'm not gonna get into myself or others that may not, within the last 12 months of lifted a finger, but when we are around we will do what is necessary! That for me is what being in BNC is about. I've given more to this corp than ANYONE will ever know, trust me you'd all go WTF!!!!!!!!!

So, while I agree with the idealism of your post, pls remember that we're here to have fun and be better than everyone else (through pvp / mining / logistics etc). The decision has been made, and I sincerely doubt that it is going to change.

There are so many valid points from people for both sides of this argument, I was rocked when I got back into the corp to hear what had happened and not fully understand it.

What is done is done, if you wish to repay Hege, then go get busy doing it. Just remember, when you're done. It is not going to change the outcome, so blast away on here all you like. But please go away and take time to accept the fact, cause at some point it is going to be that Titan that gives you a bridge or blows up 100+ enemy for you and me!

I just want people to work together, to the better of the corp that is Black Nova/Eclipse and the Alliance that is Band of Brothers, they are my home and long mey they live on.

Nahia Senne
2008-06-17, 17:48

May I be the first(?) person who calls for this thread to be locked now? Everything that could have been said has been said.

Xrak
2008-06-17, 17:52

Onchas, that post unfortunately out of line. There may be a very small number of people that it does actually apply to, but the majority it does not, neither is this the place to bring that kind of thing up. The thread was for people to put forward their points of view and opinions not to bitch at other corp mates, active or not.

May I be the first(?) person who calls for this thread to be locked now? Everything that could have been said has been said.

Agreed.

Niraco79
2008-06-17, 17:53

lock it...we started to feel the emo gayness in the air and this is not good. i not very happy of the situation , but beeing emo will not help anyone. So lock it please (with a coranor/astasia post maybe ).

Jake Noble
2008-06-17, 17:54

Ast or Cor can lock it, no one else will be doing it.

Montohotep
2008-06-17, 17:58

like locking it will make everyone happy ?

Pagefault
2008-06-17, 18:17

like locking it will make everyone happy ?

No, but it will stop escalating the situation.
We have heard lots of opinions, arguments, positions and views. It's not right to stop a constructive discussion, but it's not right either to let a thread opened that has nothing to do with such.
The direction that this thread has taken, just isn't a good one.
We don't tell people to shut up, we just tell people to TALK... not to start bitching at eachother just because the "opponent" has another view and one doesn't want to accept that.

(00:20:14) (@Cleisthenes2) what pisses me off on the thread
(00:20:33) (@Cleisthenes2) is ppl arguing for just the sake of it

Coranor
2008-06-17, 18:29

I believe that everyones had their say on the matter here so i'm going to lock the thread now. We're starting to get off the issue as well now that we're running out of things on topic.

Cell Satimo
2008-06-19, 01:41

Jesus, you locked the thread before I had my chance to state my position!

.. oh wait .. old inactive member who holds the domain name get to post anyway

SkaffenAmtiskaw
2008-06-19, 04:17

IATL... p.s. STAR COORDINATES

[Torshin]

BL 1 Onchas 0

[cockbuttes]

I see you bolded the funny parts.

[Kayl Breinhar]

pretty sad

[k]

This is from BNC forums last year, I never posted this before since at the time all titan related intel was hot commodity. Hege's 7bx titan was on the list of titan to be aborted among 2 others. We gave the intel to BoB's enemies for free, Goonfleet, RA, D2, etc... they hit a wrong shipyard and kindda gave up on abortion after that.

BNC Directors Titan Build Thread from December 2006

So we're all on the same page:

T-M0FA outpost goes up within a week. Amp and Taki are working away on it, just need to haul and deploy. This becomes the new T2 ship build station. PS-94K becomes the dedicated capital factory and begins cranking components.

Gothmog/Hege get their compressed/uncompressed mins to Parses. Place in assets hangar, ideally in a clearly marked station container to avoid any confusion. We will likely need a decent sized freighter convoy with limited alt escort to get this down, as I hear it is upward of 5 freighters.

As mins get to Delve they get uncompressed in 39P, freightered 1j to PS-94K and put into production. Since (correct me if I'm wrong) you can no longer cancel people's factory jobs by taking their station, we'll set the builds running for the number of needed comps and not worry about build time.

Once all the comps are done they get put into the capital array using the new freighter trick, yay.

Stuff that still needs doing:

Borrow Evol's Judgement and Jump Bridge BPOs, assuming they bought them.
Borrow Evol's doomsday hardpoint and jump bridge component (not the module) bpos.

I have fallen back into position in the production lines...
Orlando and I will work TMOFA,till everything is running smooth...
Its gonna be his station,along with Tet's Dragon team....Then I will be in position to set up another area for sorting production lines....

Characters:
- Quod has the skills for building the titan
- Scrapmetal processing V character needed to do the refines. Hege will provide me with his details if we have no other.

Already sorted scrap5 with okuden.
Between Quod and Mordlyn we can handle all the builds, since it's replacing the old capital program.

This has probably already been covered, but I have an alt who can build capital components, so if we need any extra slots, let me know.

Outpost stuff is all sorted out in 39P. Will go up in the next couple of days. Then we will unlock/jump/generally sort out all the BPOs, which will take a few days, add a few days of no productivity for Christmas etc. I expect to have component builds running before new year.
It's all coming together

19 Dec 2006 04:03 EOF


-----
Posted: 09 Nov 2006 03:33 Post subject: Current financial goal, BL/Coranor input pls

Eclipse is now quite a profitable entity thanks to our contracts.
We currently have around 10bn unallocated in the corp wallet and I expect to be making 10bn a month profit in future. The options as I see them are:

1. Back on BPO watch. Frig size or battleship gun BPO would be awesome. It won't come cheap, but it's well worth it and 100% in line with our goals imo. My preferred option.

2. New factory outpost for component production. This is a risk management project as it cuts down the numbers of freighters running between 39P and G-TT/YZ9 significantly. Also reduces our dependency on the blood raider stations, which are entirely vulnerable to shut down via factory spam if someone knew enough about us to do it. A definite project for after we get a new BPO imo.

3. New factory for the Titan project/ISK contribution to the Titan project. I'm very iffy about this one for a number of reasons. I'd prefer to discuss this here rather than the director forum since I know Hege will take it the wrong way and emo out.

Really, honestly, is this thing going to do anything other than sit outside a plex? We absolutely owed it to him to work on the Aeon like we did and that's fine. More than well deserved. Would do it again, etc.
But something just rubs me the wrong way about doing the same with a Titan. Don't get me wrong, I am happy for the project to progress as planned (with Hege providing the cash for a dedicated capital factory amarr outpost) and for his Titan to be completed. I'm just having trouble getting fired up about it in the way that I do with other projects because of the above. The sheer amount of hauling involved will be staggering and difficult enough to justify to the Eclipse members doing the hauling to the array when the thing is destined to be wasted out in 7BX never to be seen again without us pouring corp cash into it too. Hege hates fleet pvp and doesn't have the time for it anyway. Unless he's going to lend it to BL/Cor etc to fly for extended periods, it's never going to reach its potential.

To reiterate to avoid this being taken the wrong way, Hege is a backbone of this corp. He's done awesome stuff and is a great guy etc etc.

So, option 3 is the most sensible one to pursue now if we are going to dedicate ourselves to the project. If not, it should be left alone.

Your choices/alternative suggestions please.

Option 1 tbh. Much as we all love hege that titan is going to sit in 7bx and rust and we all know it. I've no problem using corp resources to help him build it but not when those resources could be used to benefit the rest of the corp more. ie a 425mm rail bpo.

No contest there tbh. But i thought that hege was providing the isk for a factory outpost to build the titan components. what ever happened to that?

Personal thoughts would be...

1. One or two T2 weapon bpo's.
2. T2 ship bpo.
3. Having splurged on 2 of the above, build another outpost to improve cap ship/T2 production.

Building an outpost to facilitate the Titan build isn't an option, it's a waste of isk, if bulding one to generally speed up production happens to help the Titan project then all well and good.

I'm not worried about the titan being used btw I know Hege will let me use his account even with an Avatar on it, it will see combat.

We do have to have a Titan though, it's a corp pride e-peen thing

On 2&3 The timing/sequence is highly relevant.

3) The Factory for the Titan is multi-purpose; After the Titan components are finished, the factory becomes a T2 output factory.

This weekend, I've learned from a Dev constellation soverignty is based on:
. Must have 1 Outpost in the constellation
. Must have majority of sovereignty of the systems in the constellation.

What you get:
. Permanent non-destructable gate guns (will stop small gang camps, say <8 pilots)
. A larger drain on POS fuel

So effectively, If we want to build more stations, at the moment we should be looking to put them in different constellations.

It's not clear whether this change will come with Kali 1 (either 21st or 28th November target date).

[Fartman]

I know Hege will let me use his account

i thought bob hated cheaters

[Kayl Breinhar]

Was that shit about Cell ever raised with internal affairs?

[k]

Was that shit about Cell ever raised with internal affairs?

nope

[cosy]

so he get the titan back and self destruct ?

[Fartman]

so he get the titan back and self destruct ?

Hege? No, doesn't look that way. Jake Nooble still has it. Hege has now apparently biomassed his character(s) too.

[peon]

i thought bob hated cheaters

It's not cheating, he's fully admitting it

[redsaber]

Was that shit about Cell ever raised with internal affairs?

That would be a bit pointless as Cell is better known these days as Serenity Steel.

[cosy]

Hey mailed you in real life but forgot hear so I sent you the ISK that Astasia and Coranor and Jake are claiming I sold its the exact amount they payed me for the bpos 30 for the astarte and absolution and 20 for the zelot
keep it m8 I am going to bio mass my charecters soon as Diannabilic picks up my motherships

[Viper ShizzIe]

7bx station renamed to "The Hegemon Rast Ragequit Memorial Centre".

[Hubris [banned]]

7bx station renamed to "The Hegemon Rast Ragequit Memorial Centre".

lol