Religion Megathread - many smug atheists ITT

[Phey Onat]

Bill Nye made a video advocating Evolution education:




The Creation Museum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_Museum) made a few response videos which I won't link so they don't get the views. Essentially they played on Science being a constantly changing truth and hard to understand (so it can't be a simple solution!). Now they are pretending to have a way to settle this 'debate'...


http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/bl...e-to-a-debate/

Dr. [Georgia] Purdom stated to the Christian Post, [an evolution-creation debate] “could be held at a public university, using an impartial moderator. I would think that someone as polished and charismatic as Mr. Nye would relish the opportunity to debate a creationist. In addition, since Nye will soon be hosting a new science program, I would think he would like to see the publicity generated by his participation in a major public debate.”

These guys can just stop right there. Nye doesn’t need the publicity. He's Bill Nye the fucking Science Guy...

Second, doing this debate would be a waste of Nye’s time. These debates don’t settle the truth of evolution — the evidence does. Science doesn't debate itself in front of an audience, letting the best speaker win. It debates itself in publishings, journals, and peer review, something that Creationists are more than welcome to participate in.

Obviously, the Creation Museum has never participated in that, so they feed off of publicity. Of course Ham wants this debate. It doesn’t matter that his side has nothing to present other than GodDidIt. He’s just going to spin the whole debate as proof that evolution and Creationism are locked in some sort of debate. Therefore, let’s get Creationism back into the schools.

There’s no need for a debate, because there’s no challenge to evolution.

[true]

Science doesn't debate itself in front of an audience, letting the best speaker win.

this

[Hilmar Keller]

I'm not aggressive/authoritarian on many issues (I'm a Liberal who supports gun ownership) but I do believe that the public education system needs to be preoccupied with facts and rationality, not superstition, faith, or political sensitivity. This extends to sex education, biology, history, journalism and literature at the primary and secondary levels.

[StevieTopSiders]

xd mfw Creationists.

They teach evolution in Catholic schools, so why would they not in public schools...

[raw]

Mr. Nye would relish the opportunity to debate a creationist

I am a scientist and I don't want to debate creationists. That would be neither constructive nor enlightening. Unfortunately, you kind of have to nowadays because with all the money behind them, they won't "just go away".

[Night]

xd mfw Creationists.

They teach evolution in Catholic schools, so why would they not in public schools...

Because the people who want creationism taught in public schools are majority Protestant, and would not be caught dead on the same side of this issue as the Pope. (Who's down with evolution and has been since before Benedict.)

[Hilmar Keller]

I am a scientist and I don't want to debate creationists. That would be neither constructive nor enlightening. Unfortunately, you kind of have to nowadays because with all the money behind them, they won't "just go away".

It doesn't work because the two sides are arguing with different evidence - one side cites peer-reviewed studies and physical evidence, the other cites scripture and colloquialisms. It's one battle fought on two fields.

[jimmychrist]

Creationism is an argument from willful ignorance. I'll pretend to not understand how you get something from nothing or complexity from simplicity, and appeal to the audience's common sense - by process of elimination and ridicule that means my alternative hypothesis must be correct. Also, mine fits on a bumper sticker!

Creationists and young-earthians and cardinals and whatever routinely get creamed silly whenever they go up against a Harris or a Dawkins. Shit, you could beat them senseless just by having Hitchens' youtube channel debate them from beyond the grave.

You won't change their minds, but that's not why you'd consider debating them. You'd do it to change the minds of the handful of young teenagers watching it who are on the fence.

[Hilmar Keller]

Therein lies another problem: The language of creationism is its very selling point. It's simple enough that toddlers can understand. Meanwhile, if you tried explaining to the same toddler how selective reproduction works - it gets dodgy. Creationists start 'em young.

[Raketefrau]

Whoa, I just found Noah's Ark in the woods behind my house! Call The Sun! Take that, Science!

I dunno how I missed it for this long, the shit reek is indescribable. Always clean up after your elephants.

On the upside, it's been a hell of a day for the poopapult.

[Don Peyote]

I reckon Nye should debate a leading Creationist, with the winning doctrine becomes acknowledged as the sole truth

Afterwards, we could have a debate between The Pope and Ayatollah Khameini to decide which is "right" out of Catholicism and Iranian Islam. Then we can have two guys debate whether it's Ketchup or Catsup.

Then we could have <insert subjective and un-arguable ideologies here> duke it out for supremacy in <field>!

[Raketefrau]

Sure, you can debate science. It's just a matter of what you believe or don't, right? Personally, I think Gravity is a myth.

[Brooks Puuntai]

From what I've seen many creationist have move towards the intelligent design theory. So it is shifting, just very very slowly.

Also trying to debate faith is pointless. It won't change the persons belief, it will just make you want to bang your head against the wall, from that person quoting the bible as if it was a proven fact.

[Hilmar Keller]

From what I've seen many creationist have move towards the intelligent design theory. So it is shifting, just very very slowly.

Intelligent Design is just a clever rewording of Creationism, it still implies that somebody created everything and it still disputes centuries of scientific inquiry with brilliant little bits like 'how come a banana is so easy to hold and eat?'

[jimmychrist]

From what I've seen many creationist have move towards the intelligent design theory. So it is shifting, just very very slowly.

ID is just as much bullshit

[Brooks Puuntai]

Not denying its a cheap way out. However it's much better then God creates everything in 6 days then sleeps rhetoric. It at least means they recognize part of the evolutionary process.

[Hilmar Keller]

Not denying its a cheap way out. However it's much better then God creates everything in 6 days then sleeps rhetoric. It at least means they recognize part of the evolutionary process.

The problem is that, depending on who you ask, ID means something completely different. Some think God created the Big Bang, and everything else works exactly as scientists describe. Others say God created the stars/planets/etc and the first organism on Earth but after that he sat back and watched shit happen.

Most of them apparently believe God designed the evolutionary process with humans in mind - in other words, he made the first cellular organism thinking 'hey in a few hundred million years this is totally gonna be my image.'

[true]

Well look at fiction development as history goes
1 at first there were elves in nearby woods
2 moved to that other faraway woods as first one got explored
3 moved to faraway mythic land
4 as globe got explored aliens started inhabiting moon
5 then Mars
6 out of solar system
7 other galaxies
8 parallel dimension/another universe
9 etc etc

I dont mind if there's god behind big bang (or whatever is current limit of scientific concern), why the hell not. As long as it doesn't conflict with objectively studying laws and mechanisms of creation.

For me it's just an unknown value of little relevance, so far we have no way of knowing that. However we know enough to say that earth wasn't created 5000 years ago, doesnt sits on whale's back etc

[poaw]

xd mfw Creationists.

They teach evolution in Catholic schools, so why would they not in public schools...

They teach it at the private Christian universities too. I think people are overestimating exactly how common that belief is.

[Phey Onat]

Polls put it at 40% of the US population which believes in creationism

[ente]

I dont have anything useful to contribute to the conversation but I thoroughly enjoyed listening to this. And the 3 prequels of course, but especially the first speech in part 4 has DeGrasse Tysons opinion on this matter.

[Bill Schwartzski]

I remember a long time ago in high school we got the option during one period a week to attend a bible study class.

Usually our job, as the punks in the room, were to point out these regular contradictions. As previously stated, the absolute commitment to willful ignorance has no limitation. There was literally nothing we could say that even registered.

Then one day they brought in a "speaker", someone they thought was very adept at spreading the word of God. We stretched, leaned back in our awful reclining church-chairs, and prepared ourselves.

The woman reading was illiterate and every third word had to be read for her by another dude sitting next to her. After the first ten minutes I came to the realization that sometimes you simply can't convince the children there isn't a boogeyman under the bed; they will believe it for life no matter what.

Most of them apparently believe God designed the evolutionary process with humans in mind - in other words, he made the first cellular organism thinking 'hey in a few hundred million years this is totally gonna be my image.'

I also think a big clue into the whole thing is that people look at themselves and say "HEY LOOK WE'RE SO PERFECT GOD MUST HAVE STAMPED US OUT USING HIS BLUEPRINTS!!!" when we're barely capable of working together in government, kill each other over sexual preferences and skin color, still have problems grasping the spirit of Christmas (forgiving love of humanity), shoot each other with metal bullets, nuke each other with atomic bombs, starve each other, rape each other, and let guys like Jerry Sandusky walk around.

The very first clue that God is a farce is that if we were truly made in his image this Universe of ours wouldn't work very well at ALL.

[poaw]

Polls put it at 40% of the US population which believes in creationism

Yeah I was in denial about it because it didn't match my expectations based on anecdotal evidence. I always thought it was the creative use of polling psychology/skewed sample to produce a desired result.

Then I realized all the people I "know" are around 30 years old and younger.

[jimmychrist]

Then I realized all the people I "know" are around 30 years old and younger.

Don't you mean less than one two hundredth of the age of the universe?

[raw]

I also think a big clue into the whole thing is that people look at themselves and say "HEY LOOK WE'RE SO PERFECT GOD MUST HAVE STAMPED US OUT USING HIS BLUEPRINTS!!!" when we're barely capable of working together in government, kill each other over sexual preferences and skin color, still have problems grasping the spirit of Christmas (forgiving love of humanity), shoot each other with metal bullets, nuke each other with atomic bombs, starve each other, rape each other, and let guys like Jerry Sandusky walk around.

Don't even have to go that far, you can start by asking the simple questions:

- Why do we suffocate so fast? Why can't our cells store oxigen?
- Why is reproduction imperfect?
- Why do we age? Why do we have to die?
- Why does cancer exist?

All this is stuff that I could prevent if I was a god. That leaves us with three possibilities:
a) The Lord Allmighty is not all mighty at all and in fact pretty lousy and can't even manage something simple like lossless information transfer.
b) The Lord Allmighty is playing "the game".
c) There is no Lord Allmighty.

[Hilmar Keller]

- Why do we age? Why do we have to die?

Because life would be great if we never died? Dohohoho.

[raw]

Because life would be great if we never died? Dohohoho.

Turns out aging is a combination of faulty information reproduction and actual genes that force this to happen. Both things that can be prevented (by an omnipresent all-mighty being at least).
It's probably for the better that we don't live forever (at least for now... )

[Hilmar Keller]

Turns out aging is a combination of faulty information reproduction and actual genes that force this to happen. Both things that can be prevented (by an omnipresent all-mighty being at least).
It's probably for the better that we don't live forever (at least for now... )

On a philosophical level you can't really hit theists with WHY DO WE DIE HUH because it's a terrible argument. If anything, death is a blessing. Mortality is the spark of creation (forget who said that) and without the looming and ever-present threat of dying we'd have absolutely no reason to do anything at all.

[Raketefrau]

Plus, death is when you get your Eternal Reward, right?

I mean, this whole "life" thing is just a test to see if you're good enough to spend eternity eating buckets of fried chicken with Dom Deluise and not getting fat, or jamming with Jimi Hendrix in a drug-free heaven.

[Securitas]

Turns out aging is a combination of faulty information reproduction and actual genes that force this to happen. Both things that can be prevented (by an omnipresent all-mighty being at least).
It's probably for the better that we don't live forever (at least for now... )

You'd be surprised how close research is to potentially "curing" mortality. There's a couple theories on aging but given the rapidly advancing biotech industry (especially in in vivo genetic therapy) I don't anticipate it'll be too long before there are trials on animals.

[Hilmar Keller]

Plus, death is when you get your Eternal Reward, right?

I mean, this whole "life" thing is just a test to see if you're good enough to spend eternity eating buckets of fried chicken with Dom Deluise and not getting fat, or jamming with Jimi Hendrix in a drug-free heaven.

I forget who argued that atheism was irrational because being Christian either means you're right and going to heaven or wrong and going nowhere, whereas being an atheist either means you're right and going nowhere or wrong and going to hell. Fun stuff.

Anyway, the whole obsession with eternal life and immortality is sort of beyond me, nothing inspires me to get work done like a funny pain in my chest.

[jimmychrist]

I forget who argued that atheism was irrational because being Christian either means you're right and going to heaven or wrong and going nowhere, whereas being an atheist either means you're right and going nowhere or wrong and going to hell. Fun stuff.

God is all-knowing, ever-present and omnipotent. A creator of all things who knows when you've been naughty and when you've been nice. He can see inside your soul, this cosmic dictator, and in an instant decide if you should be allowed into heaven.

But he can be tricked by Pascal's gambit?

[Aria Kink]

God is all-knowing, ever-present and omnipotent. A creator of all things who knows when you've been naughty and when you've been nice. He can see inside your soul, this cosmic dictator, and in an instant decide if you should be allowed into heaven.

But he can be tricked by Pascal's gambit?

For a minute there, I thought you were descibing Santa Claus...

I am disapoint.

[Spider Mike]

I don't think i know anyone who not believes in evolution.

[Phey Onat]

I forget who argued that atheism was irrational because being Christian either means you're right and going to heaven or wrong and going nowhere, whereas being an atheist either means you're right and going nowhere or wrong and going to hell. Fun stuff.

Anyway, the whole obsession with eternal life and immortality is sort of beyond me, nothing inspires me to get work done like a funny pain in my chest.

A mathematician trying to explain his irrational belief. Good thing there is only 1 god to pick from in this world or his equation would get pretty muddy..

[Hilmar Keller]

It probably helps that the livelihood of mathematicians and intellectuals of the era was almost entirely paid for by the Church.

[Don Peyote]

I forget who argued that atheism was irrational because being Christian either means you're right and going to heaven or wrong and going nowhere, whereas being an atheist either means you're right and going nowhere or wrong and going to hell. Fun stuff.

Anyway, the whole obsession with eternal life and immortality is sort of beyond me, nothing inspires me to get work done like a funny pain in my chest.

I can't imagine living forever, unless I was like a brain in a jar in a cyborg with a pair of henchmen, ideally a anthropomorphized rhino and warthog, and maybe a shinobi-style ninja subordinate too. That or a Dog, I think being a dog would be pretty fun

What were we talking about?

[Raketefrau]

It probably helps that the livelihood of mathematicians and intellectuals of the era was almost entirely paid for by the Church.

That's the one conundrum I continue to fight with my dislike for religion, and I can't ever settle on either side of it.

I mean, look at the architecture that wouldn't exist without the church funding it. Hell, look at some of the freaking ORGANS the church has built over the years. Think of all the music that wouldn't have been written without their backing and patronage, and often even their inspiration.

At the same time, what would the general public have done with all that money if they hadn't given it to the church? Patronized musicians and not forced them to do religious crap? That money would've gone somewhere, and I doubt it would've remained in the hands of those who donated/tithed it.

Take Michelangelo -- not a fan of the church, yet a huge benefactor of their largess. I just can't land permanently on either side of this. That bugs me.

[Phey Onat]

EXXON plants a tree now and then. Doesn't make them an environmental charity organization. Sure the church has done some good things but that isn't its purpose. Its purpose is to grow and remain valid in peoples lives. The sciences can, and have, flourished under the church rule right up to the exact point where their findings conflict with it. While the RCC ruled over Europe, the Middle East went through a golden age of science up until Islam came down hard on it. One path closes and another opens though, with the clamp down by Islam, the sciences moved back to Europe and the renaissance began to strip the RCC of its power.

[Hilmar Keller]

The Church of Medieval Europe was just as fraught with political binds as the modern US government; it can be said that the persecution of Galileo for demonstrating the heliocentric theory is similar to that of stem cell researchers today.

[jimmychrist]

The last refuge I have in this world fraught with religious leaders peddling ignorance; eppur si muove

[Raketefrau]

Go go gadget Canadian Asshole:

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/christian-...ation-1.949577

An Ontario father is taking his local school board to court, demanding the right to remove his children from courses that do not adhere to his family’s religious stance on marriage and sexuality.

Steve Tourloukis, a Hamilton dentist, says the Hamilton-Wentworth District School Board refused to give him advance warning when lessons for his two children conflict with the teachings of their religion.


“It is important for my children to be taught about these issues from a Christian perspective,” he told a news conference on Monday.


“As a Christian, I hold a sincere religious belief that I am required, by God and the Greek Orthodox Church, to raise my children according to biblical principles and the tenants of the Christian faith.”

I assume he meant "tenets," but you get the point.

[Agathor]

Many of the great electricians that more or less figured out mathematically how everything works were devout religious men. To them, they were figuring out Gods machine.

I think some of it has to do with the Latin that the Church made peeps learn to read the Bible. Making peeps bilingual or in the Germans Jews case trilingual really made peeps smarter. That said, it seems to be a human trait to dum down the masses so the elite can live like kings.

[Don Peyote]

Many of the great electricians that more or less figured out mathematically how everything works were devout religious men. To them, they were figuring out Gods machine.

I think some of it has to do with the Latin that the Church made peeps learn to read the Bible. Making peeps bilingual or in the Germans Jews case trilingual really made peeps smarter. That said, it seems to be a human trait to dum down the masses so the elite can live like kings.

"Electricians"?

[jimmychrist]

Let there be light. (wired according to regulations)

[Don Peyote]

Let there be light. (wired according to regulations)

God used non-union labourers for Earth's star, so the unions locked him out on most of the rest of space, leading to a lower light coverage than in the original design. This explains "space", consider yourselves schooled Darwinist scum

[Arrador]

He's probably thinking of people like Euler and Maxwell, pioneers in physics and yet where devote religious men and leaders in the denominations (protestant or catholic) of their day.

[Agathor]

Thinkers is a better word hehe. Here is another one

Michael Faraday (1791-1867)

http://inventors.about.com/library/i.../blfaraday.htm

[Agathor]

While we are on the subject.

André-Marie Ampère (20 January 1775 – 10 June 1836)

Alessandro Volta (1745–1827)

Georg Simon Ohm (16 March 1789 – 6 July 1854)

[Raketefrau]

While we are on the subject.

André-Marie Ampère (20 January 1775 – 10 June 1836)

Alessandro Volta (1745–1827)

Georg Simon Ohm (16 March 1789 – 6 July 1854)

Feh. Like anybody's ever heard of these people or their work.

Find me Leopold Jigawatt and we'll talk.