Danger Zone: Delve, Querious, and Period Basis

[Agathor]

I mean. Most of our allies, PL particularly, just seem to enjoy flying with us. And us with them. We have a nice symbiotic relationship with them; they have fantastic FC's and a large supercap fleet, but they lack overall numbers. Our FC's learn from theirs (and have shown a lot of improvement, at least imo), and our sub-cap numbers provide the support and numbers. This relationship is beneficial to both of us, but if we hated each other you wouldn't see it happening.

We have known goons since forever, they raised us and nurtured us, and when it was time for us to venture off on our own they let us do so.

Test's general membership is not afraid to call out allies (or leadership) and generally shit upon them, if they feel it has been earned. That's why I think it's funny when people decide that we have just "blued everything in sight", or riverini gives us an ultimatum (lawl) for criteria we have to meet before we can choose our own name. Our allies aren't just allies, they are friends we have positive relationships with. Relationships that our leadership has worked very hard to mature and that our general membership supports.

You just cant stop looking at the eye brows, its ok, me too.

[John Caffeine]

I know very well who Shadoo is. Thank you. Amongst other things is also a "PL guy" like Makalu or Herculetz amongst other things are also "AAA guys".

Makalu "SKWAAAK WHO'S WEBBING ME GET THE RIFTER GET THE RIFTER SKWAAAAK" Zarya is certainly right up there alongside Shadoo in quality.

Yeppers.

If you read his post you'd notice he didn't mention quality, he simply pointed out that both Makalu and Shadoo are in leadership positions within their alliances.

When there's so much material to haze -A- over, having to intentionally misinterpret posts just looks dumb.

[Yang Wenli]

Running away is, was, and probably will continue to be -A-'s mental and physical crutch. The Tengus are a symptom of that, but there are other cognizant reasons why they don't work. As Shadoo and others have pointed out, the Tengu mob is not able to win a fight, it is only able to avoid losing. They will accomplish little or nothing with it and never can. It does not even serve the scare-tactic purpose of a fleet in being.

First off, let's put our cards on the table here, you have been butt-mad since AAA took Providence and sent all your friends running to the NC in search of safer ratting and mining. It's totally shocking that you would be talking smack about AAA, seriously.

Secondly, can you please tell me more about the symbolic connection between Tengus and the cowardice that lives within the hearts of AAA's FCs? This talk of mental crutches is dime store psychology straight out of The Dr. Phil Show.

Third, and most germane to the subject at hand, Tengus are an adaptation, an attempt to engage more and more hostiles with less and less friendlies. Given the current state of Eve, it's not surprising that people are struggling to find ways to fight without numerical superiority.

If only there were a famous alliance that people out-numbered could hire to save them from shitty blobs. Oh wait, they are now FCing coalition fleets, mentoring TEST, and maintain a NAP with Goons to keep their moons safe. So much for a real war this year. Maybe after the tech nerf.

[tgr]

If you read his post you'd notice he didn't mention quality, he simply pointed out that both Makalu and Shadoo are in leadership positions within their alliances.

When there's so much material to haze -A- over, having to intentionally misinterpret posts just looks dumb.

There was no misinterpretation.

[El Terrible]

Third, and most germane to the subject at hand, Tengus are an adaptation, an attempt to engage more and more hostiles with less and less friendlies. Given the current state of Eve, it's not surprising that people are struggling to find ways to fight without numerical superiority.

If only there were a famous alliance that people out-numbered could hire to save them from shitty blobs. Oh wait, they are now FCing coalition fleets, mentoring TEST, and maintain a NAP with Goons to keep their moons safe. So much for a real war this year. Maybe after the tech nerf.

Apart from the final 49-u station timer -A- has constantly had the numerical advantage over Test, at times it has been quite a significant advantage (100+). So using 100mn tengus in an attempt to fight outnumbered while in fact outnumbering your enemy does seem pretty cowardly.

[Mr Coloredshirt]

Holy crap look at all the bad fittings advice, is this Fail-Heap? 100mn Tengus are why AAA is losing? If they were drakes or BS instead the only difference is that AAA wouldn't be able to run when they lose all their logistics.

As for escalating with blap-dreads or slow-cats, maybe on a fucking station they control, but putting those anywhere else will just lead to PL titans shitting all over them. Some of you (looking at the TEST posters here) have a very warped idea of when it is safe to drop capitals as a result of being part of a coalition with massive supremacy in 0.0 right now.

Anyway, plenty is wrong in AAA, it's an old-style alliance with many concepts that are harmful to their overall success in 0.0, but their doctrines are more-or-less copies of things that have worked very well in other asymmetrical wars. The original creators, for the record are: (PL - Tengus, PL- Rokhs, Nulli - Geddons, Occupational Hazard - Lokis). The fits are fine, there are just limits to how badly out-numbered you can be when you use them.

People often look back to PL in the days of Justin Mead's awesome videos as the pinnacle of what is capable for a force fighting out-numbered. That version of PL was fucking impressive, and it was the closest thing this game ever had to the famous clans/guilds in other games that are treated like celebrities. They were like Nihilum, complete with desperate applicants willing to do anything for membership.

However, there are two big reasons that we don't see PL working as a lone-wolf anymore though.

The first reason is the super-cap nerf. When they started to lose in the old days, you'd see Titans come in to DD all the command ships + logistics. PL had that massive i-win button in those days, and it let them take big risks without many genuine disasters. Then the super-cap nerfs came.

The end of the super-cap golden era means that raw sub-cap numbers are the biggest factor in most fights now. There is a reason the best "out-manned but never out-gunned" alliance is blue with people like TEST and Goonswarm - numbers are everything. Not even PL could win the fights AAA has been faced with in the last 3 months.

The second reason is the need to keep their tech moons safe. After the DRF collapsed, PL lost is big backer. To maintain the flow of isk, PL agreed not to fuck with the CFC. This means the best chance for sloppy super-cap kills and endless fights against super-eager opponents went out the window.

There doesn't seem like there is much chance of them ever being independent "elite mercs" again either, the money would be a joke compared to the wealth that owning tech-moons provides. CCP has done a wonderful job of encouraging us to build massive cartels around the top-value moons in the game. Instead of conflict drivers, they ensure everyone is so well-paid that they can put off challenging each other in lieu of stamping out small fries who exist outside the regions of prosperity.

I would love to be proven wrong, but we won't know until tech is nerfed, because even if PL wanted to try to impress everyone again - they will never break their deal with the CFC that keeps 100 tech moons safe in a hemisphere they rarely even visit until those moons drop to the level of being worth less than 1 bil a month each.

Anyway, in the hopes of watching more awesome videos, I hope that the game changes.

AAA is just a shitty punching bag, any way you look at it. They don't lose supers, they don't commit often to big fights, and they are pretty much poorer and smaller than every coalition that comes to fuck with them.

The game needs some real wars again.

quoting for truth










no wait what's that other word

[Combat Scrub]

And he was responsible for making the SOV system we have now. :sigh:

He is also responsible for the Super Cap mess we have now.

Since Seleene apparently doesn't post here anymore, he has said a number of times that the final Sov structure in Dominion was not the system he had planned - it was a partial implementation. In addition, how is he responsible for the SuperCap mess? I thought that was an offshoot of Technetium ISK and the structure grind required in aforementioned incomplete sov system?

[Rydia]

well -A- charges 3b for http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Tenerifis/D-9UEV a month. take in cosideration that some system like http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Tenerifis/JV1V-O is also rented for like 10b they probably make somewhere arround 300-500b a month in Rent, they not rly poor at all. not at all.

It is a lot closer to 300b than 500. These cover arp and sovcost but nothing fancy. Certainly not any scap welps hence why we use caution when dropping them.

There are a good few fairly rich guys (multiple trillions) who help out when it's needed.

[tgr]

Since Seleene apparently doesn't post here anymore, he has said a number of times that the final Sov structure in Dominion was not the system he had planned - it was a partial implementation. In addition, how is he responsible for the SuperCap mess?

He was still the game designer in charge at the time.

I thought that was an offshoot of Technetium ISK and the structure grind required in aforementioned incomplete sov system?

Nah, nobody buys a ship they can lose if it's shit compared to something you can get at the 1/100th of the price, especially not if it comes with drawbacks such as not being able to dock etc. No, the supercap mess is squarely because they were made into even more capable combat platforms than they were before, which made them desirable to the point where people ground f.ex incursions etc for isk to purchase one.

If they'd been made into non-combat ships which were still useful as fuck to alliances, first of all we wouldn't have had this supercap race, and second of all there would be a fucktonne less of them in the game.

[Grim]

Yeah, your latest diplomatic action to get people to ocupy space is full of nuances. The requirements are really, really tight: "get it for free and shoot -A-"

You blued RA. Just gonna leave it at that.

[Soni]

I mean. Most of our allies, PL particularly, just seem to enjoy flying with us. And us with them. We have a nice symbiotic relationship with them; they have fantastic FC's and a large supercap fleet, but they lack overall numbers. Our FC's learn from theirs (and have shown a lot of improvement, at least imo), and our sub-cap numbers provide the support and numbers. This relationship is beneficial to both of us, but if we hated each other you wouldn't see it happening.

We have known goons since forever, they raised us and nurtured us, and when it was time for us to venture off on our own they let us do so.

Test's general membership is not afraid to call out allies (or leadership) and generally shit upon them, if they feel it has been earned. That's why I think it's funny when people decide that we have just "blued everything in sight", or riverini gives us an ultimatum (lawl) for criteria we have to meet before we can choose our own name. Our allies aren't just allies, they are friends we have positive relationships with. Relationships that our leadership has worked very hard to mature and that our general membership supports.

So don't take it pesonal, but as half year ago said, PL had need numbers, meatshield. check. Test had need a couple good/brilliant fc. check. i call it a good partnership, everyone get his needs.

Also how the hell Evol get in this band? Does Molle still playing? He going to have a stroke, when log in and will see test and pl blue with them....

[Ymir]

Since Seleene apparently doesn't post here anymore, he has said a number of times that the final Sov structure in Dominion was not the system he had planned - it was a partial implementation. In addition, how is he responsible for the SuperCap mess? I thought that was an offshoot of Technetium ISK and the structure grind required in aforementioned incomplete sov system?

He said that the current sov mechanic was a half ass compromise after the Senior Devs got their hands on the initial plans (whatever they where)
Sel was very much a part of the supers change esp. the HP buff and the death ray doomsday, both good in my view except the HP was overdone by 25% at least.

I mean. Most of our allies, PL particularly, just seem to enjoy flying with us. And us with them. We have a nice symbiotic relationship with them; they have fantastic FC's and a large supercap fleet, but they lack overall numbers. Our FC's learn from theirs (and have shown a lot of improvement, at least imo), and our sub-cap numbers provide the support and numbers. This relationship is beneficial to both of us, but if we hated each other you wouldn't see it happening.

We have known goons since forever, they raised us and nurtured us, and when it was time for us to venture off on our own they let us do so.

Test's general membership is not afraid to call out allies (or leadership) and generally shit upon them, if they feel it has been earned. That's why I think it's funny when people decide that we have just "blued everything in sight", or riverini gives us an ultimatum (lawl) for criteria we have to meet before we can choose our own name. Our allies aren't just allies, they are friends we have positive relationships with. Relationships that our leadership has worked very hard to mature and that our general membership supports.

Wtf is this?? you high on Shadoo´s jizz or something?

[Richter Belmont]

So -A-, when are you batphoning SOLAR and the rest of the DRF?

[StevieTopSiders]

Finnish child molester with gypsy eyebrow magic?

I find "Gypsy" offensive. Please refer to Chery Lloyd and her hott younger sisters as "Roma" people.

tia

[Ymir]

So -A-, when are you batphoning SOLAR and the rest of the DRF?

right now ... MACTEP is picking up on the other end.


Update: MACTEP said "Da"

[Ricky]

It is a lot closer to 300b than 500. These cover arp and sovcost but nothing fancy. Certainly not any scap welps hence why we use caution when dropping them.

There are a good few fairly rich guys (multiple trillions) who help out when it's needed.

if you rly think -a- only bring in 300b a month in rent your soo mistaken or someone is making a load of isk on the side line, nulli brought in 60ish(and thats lowballing it) bill a month in rent whit a renter group 20 times smaller. so if -a- only brings in 300b someone is getting rich yeah.

[Night]

First off, let's put our cards on the table here, you have been butt-mad since AAA took Providence and sent all your friends running to the NC in search of safer ratting and mining. It's totally shocking that you would be talking smack about AAA, seriously.

I...

What? I have no idea who you think I am, but I have bad news: I'm not that person. My alliance history can be summed up as Black Flag. If you remember who that was, congratulations, you've been playing this game a long time. I have never in my life worked with a Providence entity, much less been part of one.

Secondly, can you please tell me more about the symbolic connection between Tengus and the cowardice that lives within the hearts of AAA's FCs? This talk of mental crutches is dime store psychology straight out of The Dr. Phil Show.

This is interesting, because you actually elaborated on this connection yourself. Here, let me help you!

Holy crap look at all the bad fittings advice, is this Fail-Heap? 100mn Tengus are why AAA is losing? If they were drakes or BS instead the only difference is that AAA wouldn't be able to run when they lose all their logistics.

But more seriously we've talked endlessly in this thread and others, going back more than a year, about how -A-'s paradigm is to be cockroaches and thus surviving to fall back, whether to Stain or to the next system over, is their goal in life. This has worked many and deleterious effects on them of which the Tengus that cannot win but can only avoid dying are but a symptom.

And how else is one supposed to interpret the use of a fleet comp which is designed to survive rather than win an engagement when you're fighting a sov war? Lest we forget, -A- chose to assault 49-, the battle was not forced on them. They chose to do it with these instruments, which were incapable of winning a fight for the objective and whose main virtue is that if the battle is lost few of them will die.

If the battle is lost, few of them will die. That bears repeating. That is, by your own admission, the desired attribute for which these Tengus were created. Not to win, but to pre-cauterize the wounds. Not to succeed, but to keep the loss of ships to a minimum. And to hell with the loss of sov.

Nothing more clearly illustrates the level to which -A- has sunk than that even when they deliberately attempt to prosecute a sov war, seeking out sov targets and attacking them, they do it with instruments that they have designed for the express purpose of escaping when they fail.

[kiresays]

So don't take it pesonal, but as half year ago said, PL had need numbers, meatshield. check. Test had need a couple good/brilliant fc. check. i call it a good partnership, everyone get his needs.

Which is exactly what I said. I'm just mentioning that it isn't a forced partnership due to necessity. We enjoy playing with each other.

Wtf is this?? you high on Shadoo´s jizz or something?

Eyebrows man. Eyebrows.

[StevieTopSiders]

Guys, -A- is an alliance that specializes in small-gang warfare, so it's understandable that you would be afraid of our 100MN AB Tengus. It has been scientifically proven that people in CFC can only blob and have no skill so they wouldn't understand why -A- uses a fleet comp that depends heavily on pilot skill.

Am I doing the -A- posting thing right?

[freijie]

which were incapable of winning a fight for the objective

what?

[Night]

It's not a bizarre sentence, man. I can't make it much simpler then "they can't actually win what they set out to with these ships".

And in case anyone missed the point, I don't have the answer for what -A-'s done to themselves since I don't think there is an answer. But the fact their very fleet comp indicates they are not willing to commit to an effort (because again, it's designed to bail out when the going gets rough). They don't want to win.

[Yang Wenli]

Sorry, Night, I guess I have you confused. Maybe I was thinking of Night Combat or whatever his name is.

You see, many of the most prolific anti-AAA CFC members are former Providence "holder" alliance members who fled to the NC and then to the arms of Mittani's CFC instead of fighting for their space when things got bad each time. Typical "follow the isk" players who just want to rat most days, occasionally showing up to a fleet once a week.

I find it amusing to see them all arrayed against their former tormentors now, which I why I seized on the opportunity when I believed it had appeared.

As for losing because their ships are too defensive, bro, you have to be able to rep incoming damage to fight out-numbered. It's the same reason PL used Armor-HACs when the meta was all about maelstroms and drakes, or why they - in fact - invented the Thunder Cat that AAA has modified with a 100mn AB and some e-war.

PL is probably the alliance with the best history of success fighting out-manned (on a large scale at leasT) and if they aren't the ones to emulate, then who is? I guess AAA could always try Muninns.

AAA was on-field for like 4 hours last week for the second-to-last station timer in 49- in Tengus. There is no reason why they can't stay on field forever if the fight is manageable enough. It's all about numbers, not doctrines.

No one is contesting the fact that AAA is losing and running away from most fights, but what strikes me as odd is that people honestly seem to be saying that they would be doing better if they fought to the last man in battleships or whatever the fuck else (drakes???)

My assumption is that the CFC is hugely disappointed with this war. They want battles daily, with 500 dead AAA Rokhs on the boards. They want to feel like they earned every system. They are posting here, frustrated, begging AAA to be "real men" and bend over for them in their juicy large-signature ships.

Sorry, but Eve doesn't work that way! You don't take space by winning close battles, you win before the battles are fought. Mittani has known this for years, which his coalition is so fucking dominant right now. Also why 0.0 bores me to tears.

[Diotima Saraki]

In addition, how is he responsible for the SuperCap mess? I thought that was an offshoot of Technetium ISK and the structure grind required in aforementioned incomplete sov system?

pre-Dominion Motherships were really just tier3 carriers - they had some extras (clone vat bay, ecm burst) but were generally not considered worth the expense.

Then came Dominion and Seleene (CCP Abathur) proposed the new supercarrier concept that made motherships substantially different in role & capability from tier1 carriers (fighter bombers as anti-capital weapons, no more triage).

However, 2 months later something miraculous happened and CCP Nozh decided in a rare case of insight to put Abathur's "rushed" changes on ice calling for additional rounds of testing & balancing for supercarriers because "balancing becomes a very delicate matter considering the sheer scale of their power".

His devblog also features remarkable comments such as

The Titans primary value should be as a fleet's logistical backbone. Although this vision has not been fully realized, it continues to be the goal. They shouldn't become the ultimate choice when it comes to direct damage, a seat already occupied by Dreadnoughts. Many might argue that due to their price and availability they never will be. There is some truth in that, but history has taught us that balancing by price is never a good idea.

The response to that devblog was not especially enthusiastic:

The playerbase tested the new motherships over several weeks on SiSi and found them good.

Some genius put you in charge of Abathur's good work, and now you've not only screwed up all the effort that went into testing those ships, now there's to be no improvement at all.

Where is your credibility on caps? Who are you? Have you fought in a supercapital, lost a supercapital on the field?

Is this the new CCP, or the old CCP rearing its terrible, incompetent head?

A new sisi patch showed supercarriers that were significantly weaker than Abathur's original vision and soon the forums drowned in "free CCP Abathur" spam.

Eventually the playerbase which wanted supercapitals to be "super" got their way and Abathur's changes were deployed with Dominion 1.1.

Instead of taking this as a lesson on what happens when players are allowed to do game design we prefer to blame this episode on CCP in general and Seleene in particular.


(to be fair there was a lot of derp in CCP Nozh's posts at that time, iirc he had some graph which showed the effect of target painters on motherships... but in hindsight his concerns regarding the power of capitals in general and Abathur-style supercarriers in particular turned out to be right)

[X Ozymandias X]

-a-'s answer to losing so many scimis

From: Makalu Zarya
Sent: 2012.08.12 22:39
To: Against ALL Authorities,


BOYS AND GIRLS I GIVE YOU


THE 100MN AB SCIMI!!!!!!


ok boys and girls we have yet another scimi fitting change FOR TENGU FLEETS ONLY.


Our fit differs very slightly because the -A- fit has t2 rigs,..... which cost 100m each lol. + 2 implants, that cost 40ishm also, no thanks RIB wallet cries. so our fit is below, we have 192hp less per rep cycle BUT more cap and more tank .


this is surely the right fit :P.








Reactor Control Unit II
Reactor Control Unit II
Power Diagnostic System II
Capacitor Power Relay II


Cap Recharger II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Experimental 100MN Afterburner I


Medium S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter


Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Scimitar Easy save fitting.


Also you need to train your ab skills like yesterday - Afterburner V, Fuel Conservation V

[Userkare]

Cap stable with one large and one medium rep and all 5 skills...

EDIT: With logi 4 you can only run one large rep, even with all 5 AB skills, cap skills and shield emission systems 5 and standard mindflood.

[Madz Negro]

So Makalu is basically reducing the number of logi -A- is going to be able to field? I'm ok with this.

[Mira Z]

Guys, -A- is an alliance that specializes in small-gang warfare, so it's understandable that you would be afraid of our 100MN AB Tengus. It has been scientifically proven that people in CFC can only blob and have no skill so they wouldn't understand why -A- uses a fleet comp that depends heavily on pilot skill.

Am I doing the -A- posting thing right?

Pretty much indistinguishable from a regular 401k post, to be honest

[kiresays]

You've got to be shitting me.

[SpaceHermit]

Bullshit.

Nobody is that dumb.

[Night]

-a-'s answer to losing so many scimis

I don't want to believe.

[Gunslinger]

-A- are to the SoCo like SC.AG was to TEST.

Just get the fuck out

[Richter Belmont]

Oh my god.

I told myself, "They do 100mn recons, they do 100mn ecm tengus, they possibly CAN'T be dumb enough to do this. No way they will do 100mn scimitars."

And then they do it.

[ihaveahelmet]

Thank god for no 1000mn prop mods.

[Faife]

turning is for people who make mistakes as to where they want to go

AAA makes no such mistakes and has no need for turning

[Querns]

Mein gott.

That scimitar has 5 fitting mods on it. FIVE!

[tgr]

I await the awesome lossmails.

[Rezorek]

Thank god for no 1000mn prop mods.

Gotta go fast!

[ranbo das]

Please be real

[p4km4n]

It's missing the whore gun. How will they know they were actually in the fight? :iiam:

[Securitas]

The 100MN tengus work pretty decently. 100mn Scimitars are just retarded since if your anchor isn't awful they shouldn't be getting shot at.

[redsaber]

hey guys medium reps are only half as good but it doesn't matter. (who cares about range or rep power)

surely a single large rep will be more than enough to do what is needed.

Dear god test how you guys got so lucky to draw these idiots... i dont know

[Shadoo]

A PL guy making comments about the financial data of another alliance???? AHAHAHAHAHAH. I've heard some rumours about some bans and negative wallets, but I'm sure that's only what they are ... rumours.

Only in Kugu really

I'm gonna answer even though I'm sure NOT EVEN you are this dumb and thus are simply trolling.

PL spending have since the start been very open, every corp director has had access to our alliance wallet full API since API was released. We've since made reading the information easy with custom tracker pages and distill the information regularly to piechart level.

1 day member in PL is able to see exactly how much we earn, spending we regularly report via our TWUs and SOTLs as you can read on EN24/here or dig through archives on K.com forum mirrors. Our contract sums were never a secret, but they were often trolled about - you can easily find the sums in the forum mirror and know exactly our thinking behind why we charged the sums we did. None of this should hardly be a suprise.

Right this second, PL wallet is at 619billion, our assets in alliance stock (tourney/unique) are worth ~1T. Most our corporations have ~20billion spending isk on ally replaced logistics and ~50bil in alliance assets apart from communist corps by quick glance of API data (which all corps provide and everyone can read easily in dir). Our isk level fluxuates between 200-1tril regularly due to investments made in unique ships and other assets, but the alliance "worth" has stayed the same for about ~2 years I recall looking at it closely since whatever extra we earn, we spend on alliance member programs through supercap subsidies and dread assistance as examples. We normally gather more unique ships as well for use in tourneys with any influx cash.

So, that's PL. Can you really say the same for any SoCo alliances? I mean it's pretty well known your alliance income is ~300b/month and you spend pretty much all of that, but even a grunt knows much more than that is drawn in every month ;-).

[Xystance]

100mn ab basilisk can maintain four large reps because of cap chain with logi v.

[nightlord]

You think -a- can keep a proper cap chain going?

[redsaber]

blackbirds > basilisks guys

blackbirds

[Grim]

Gotta go fast!

Now we can just ignore their logi. After 3 minutes they will cap out, and before that they already rep less per ship.

I wonder if they will have them fit in time for our regularly scheduled the 49- fight.

[Richter Belmont]

Call me crazy, but I think Shadoo is trying to imply something here with his posts about alliance financial data, specifically pertaining to Against ALL Authorities.

[Canned Yerins]

1. Wait for scimis to turn
2. ???
3. Kill 50 strat cruisers

[Marivauder]

blackbirds > basilisks guys

blackbirds

The Future

[Grim]

The Future

100mn brobirds?