New rule! (I know you guys love rules!)

[Endie]

Racial epithets are fine? Well let's see what the rule says about racism

[/B]

It seems racial epithets aren't fine. I don't even know where you got the impression that they were fine, nor where I'd be giving favoritism.

Your rules have already been broken in a number of places by people taking the piss out of you. I, myself, in this thread used racial epithets that I knew you wouldn't give a fuck about (because they're not going to appeal to your very specific sensitivities) and didn't get infracted, then I said "nigger" and BANG infraction. I told people on jabber what I'd do, I told them what you would and would not infract, and I got it 100% right.

But it's not a matter of specific words, it's about your attempt to make kugutsumen dot com into a very different place (vinata dot com) with a different culture and disneyfied posting. You can try to gentrify the old neighbourhood in the hope of bringing in a better class of resident but I suspect that you're more likely, over a period of slow decline, to discover the truth in the old saying about dancing with the one that brung you. The fact that I know of at least two serious, potential competitors from various groups only makes that more obvious. You have a competitive edge due to a distinctive culture but you just took that out back and shot it.

[Endie]

So, DHD argued with you about this rule, and Marivauder is saying its dumb. I see you were very much so on the same page as the rest of the sites staff.

Other mods also think it is somewhere between dumb and stupid but the general suspicion is that he has had to back down over too many stupidities recently and this time intends to ride the ship to the bottom over it.

[Vinata]

Please tell me about the many stupidities I've had to back down over recently.

e: Also I'm not even seeing any other posts in this thread where you used racial slurs before you dropped the n-bomb.

[Endie]

That's because you have a narrow set of perceptions of what groups you wish to privilege.

[Endie]

Please tell me about the many stupidities I've had to back down over recently.

The shining example of a public Vinata climbdown where you try to change the culture of the boards to fit your politeposting, genteel-, sip-nicely-tea-party model is http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread...ever-shitpost)

[Endie]

Oh here's another good one what about where you changed the rules so nobody could see who repped them that was a great success that passed the test of time!

[Jean Leaner]

Oh here's another good one what about where you changed the rules so nobody could see who repped them that was a great success that passed the test of time!

Not only that, he fucked it up and donators could still see who repped them. Make a bad change and don't do it right some more though.

[Vinata]

That's because you have a narrow set of perceptions of what groups you wish to privilege.

No, I mean I can not even identify a term that is a slur against any group of people. Unless you think Eskimo is a slur I'm not seeing anything resembling a slur against any group of people. It's possible you're using some terminology I'm not familiar with, but I"m not seeing anything.

e: Like I looked up "jocko" but that didn't come back with anything vaguely resembling a slur.

[Endie]

Thanks for agreeing with me about the fact that a system driven by one person's personal political preferences will be doomed to be arbitrary since that individual gives no fucks about a term like "jocko" (a derogatory term for Scots so you better infract me now, oh no wait that's a member of a white racial grouping so you give no shits and it's ok!) but does have a bee in his personal bonnet about any term that offends his own personal collection of social mores.

[Vinata]

So jocko is an insult against a nationality? Well then it doesn't violate the rule about racism, because nationalities aren't races.

e: After looking into it more, Scots are indeed their own ethnic group and arguably a race.

[Endie]

No, Scots view ourselves as a race (specifically one resulting from an offshoot of the P-Celtic-speaking migrants driven north and west under the pressure of migrations by later-arriving racial groups, most notably Saxon and Angle migrations of the early dark ages, but with an element of Norse culture). "Jock" or "Jocko" will be applied as a slur to those of Scottish ancestry even in cases where they actually live abroad, most notably in Canada. But you give no fucks about that so you hunt around for a reason not to have the ridiculous racism of your own position, with its tiny elect of priviliged groups, revealed.

The fact is that you have someone like me, who finds it difficult and vaguely unpleasant to type the word "nigger" even just to troll you, saying that this "rule" (to the extent that "don't say stuff Vinata doesn't like" can be a rule) is a stupid, selfish, arbitrary and ultimately unacceptable change to the culture of this site, and that if you go for it then I'll stop using my posting and content to drive traffic here via SA, goonfleet dot com, reddit, twitter, which I have consciously done in the past, and was criticised for in illum just last week for doing. Instead, I'll just post here to add a reddit-style link to another forum and say "hey I posted this over at this site take a look at it there and if you want to troll me for it I'll be responding there".

[Vinata]

I value criticism like that Endie and I wish you would have put it that way sooner so as to avoid the unpleasantness which has occurred.

[Endie]

Also lol:

Vinata: what have i done that everyone said was dumb as fuck and had to back down from? Huh? Gimme an example.

Me: what about this example

Vinata: ...

Me: Also what about this example

Vinata: Can't hear you

[Endie]

We could also mention the stupid as fuck shit you've done that you've refused to back down from, like killing the alliance threads by ghettoing them. So the test thread had 400,000 views but in the last month hasn't even filled a page. The gsf thread had something like quarter a million views but hasn't been posted in since you moved it.

But I'm sure that you have some nit-picking detail that you can use to claim that that wasn't the fault of your decision-making either!

[Vinata]

I didn't respond to those because I was hoping you'd get to 3. 2 mistakes isn't a big deal.The decision regarding no shitpost ok threads was a stupid decision, but the only stupid thing about the invisible rep thing was the people getting angry over something so dumb.

[Endie]

I did get to three you were just too proud to back down on that one.

[Vinata]

Fair enough.

[Endie]

The impressive thing about this fourth mistake is that it is clearly a calculation on your part that it is worth losing people from your existing community in the hope that you might replace them in the future with nicer people. The Star Wars Galaxies gambit. Like SW:G you virtually guarantee that you turn the people you alienate into evangelists for alternative sites.

[Vinata]

If the purpose of this was to get rid of the dredge and filth I'd have applied the rule to EOU.

[Endie]

That "dredge and filth" is your unique selling-point. Without that lawless frontier shit you are just Eve-O Mk4 or a clone of SHC/FHC and that market is already dominated by en24.

People come here to call mittens or grath or vince or PGL cunts, and to perhaps get a response. What you have here is a delicate balance and if you break it with this constant, ill-advised tinkering, each element of which alienates the older (and therefore often more influential customers) further, then eventually you will see critical mass reached elsewhere, and you will never get them back. See also: battledb.

[Manfred Hideous]

If the purpose of this was to get rid of the dredge and filth I'd have applied the rule to EOU.

So what exactly is your reasoning? I know I'm a retard (heh) but I'm sure Endie can find a was to 'splain it to me.

[Vinata]

You are really hung up on that retard comment.

[Manfred Hideous]

LOL Not really but nice job ignoring the question.

[Vinata]

I addressed the question in the first post of this thread.

[jimmychrist]

I addressed the question in the first post of this thread.

And a good job you did too

[Manfred Hideous]

No, you refused to address the question by stating you didn't feel like giving a reason. Is that because it's hard to justify in writing that you wanted to capriciously add a new rule called "words Vinata doesn't like"?

Or have you edited? I didn't bother checking.

[Wusti]

Fuck man - you pissed off Endie!

Let me tell you something Vinnie... I ignored this thread basically because I thought whoever decided to do that mus have been impersonating a BLEEEP BLEEEEP BLEEEEP BLEEEP.

But we all make mistakes sometimes.

Be a good mod and stop this silliness.

Now isn;t insertion of those BLEEEPs silly? Of course it is.

Be a good Site Administrator and just sweep this under the rug and hope everyone forgets about it.

You're already losng people who were avid readers - stop the rot.

[Seymore Graves]

On a more serious note this is a utterly pointless rule and you should feel bad for endeavouring to implelent it.

[Endie]

He knows that, Seymore: thus the "I'm not going to tell you the reason" angle.

[Kevin]

I think i understand why Vinata is tryng to implement this rule, but i don't understand why Vin wouldn't implement it into EOU to be effective, since thats the most popular area (I imagine).

I ~presume~ that ts an effort to reduce the number of 'hurr hurr you're a whatever' posts by making an ironclad rule about what is a shitpost (here is a list of bad words). Why Vinata felt the need to do this without the consent of other mods i don't know.

However, as Endie has strenuously pointed out, by using political correctness as a means to improve the content, you open a pandoras box of ill-defined grey areas where scots abuse themelves and get their keks in a knot, and Grath starts climbing hills at Iwo Jima to plant Freedom Day flags. Its not going to improve the quality of the site, because lets face it, Grath's profanity-laden advice columns and Endie's wonderfully written updates/propaganda speeches (that happen to be laden with infractible offences) are what provide some of the best content on this site.

Fact is, Eve is terrible and we are a reflection of that, a terrible, lawless waste of time and money. Its pointless to pretend this site will be anything other than that, since, jesus fuck, its EVE and most of the time, nothing happens except we yell at each other.

Also pls don't infract me for my blasphemy kthx.

[Don Peyote]

Why Vinata felt the need to do this without the consent of other mods i don't know.

We were warned of the upcoming change a few weeks ago. Most of those who posted in the discussion thread agreed, others voiced concerns, but agreed in principle. Anyone coming out now and saying "this is a bad idea" ought to remember that they had a chance to object weeks in advance and said nothing.

At any rate, none of us foresaw that banning bigotry would lead to people getting so annoyed, and I still don't understand why doing so is so bad - especially as EOU and STD, the first and second most popular areas, will remain unchanged.

This new rule would have literally zero effective impact on the vast majority of users if it wasn't for people mod-baiting at the moment. The fact that I thought this, along with cutting down on homophobia/racism/misogyny, which I find pretty annoying to come across on sites like reddit and don't want here, is why I agreed with the changes when consulted.

[Endie]

At any rate, none of us foresaw that banning bigotry would lead to people getting so annoyed, and I still don't understand why doing so is so bad - especially as EOU and STD, the first and second most popular areas, will remain unchanged.

This new rule would have literally zero effective impact on the vast majority of users if it wasn't for people mod-baiting at the moment. The fact that I thought this, along with cutting down on homophobia/racism/misogyny, which I find pretty annoying to come across on sites like reddit and don't want here, is why I agreed with the changes when consulted.

You're not banning bigotry. You're banning words. The fact that Vinata cannot tell the difference between the two became clear some time ago, but most people are very well aware of the difference.

[Endie]

The fact that I thought this, along with cutting down on homophobia/racism/misogyny, which I find pretty annoying to come across on sites like reddit and don't want here, is why I agreed with the changes when consulted.

(11:19:25 AM) kilak: ccp needs to make better servers that can handle 1500+ man battles
(11:19:41 AM) jeffraider: they should study your mom's vagina technology
(11:19:46 AM) jeffraider: cuz it handles 1500 dudes regularly

Your sig is misogynistic. Or does it not count because you are a mod?

[John Smith]

We were consulted and most mods agreed and while I agreed on the principle, it took me a while to formulate into words why I disagreed with it(its hard to argue for racism, misogyny and other forms of biggotry!). I've managed to do that today and there is some internal discussion going on, so if you could all chillax for a bit and we'll get things sorted.

edit: basically I'm saying can you hold back on the pitchforks and lynch mob for a bit. tia

[Jean Leaner]

We were consulted and most mods agreed and while I agreed on the principle, it took me a while to formulate into words why I disagreed with it(its hard to argue for racism, misogyny and other forms of biggotry!). I've managed to do that today and there is some internal discussion going on, so if you could all chillax for a bit and we'll get things sorted.

edit: basically I'm saying can you hold back on the pitchforks and lynch mob for a bit. tia

The beatings will continue until morale improves

[Don Peyote]

Your sig is misogynistic. Or does it not count because you are a mod?

How is it misogynistic? jeffraider merely states that kilak's mother's vagina engages with 1500 dudes on a regular basis. He doesn't make any sweeping statements about women in general or belittle her for being a woman in any way - he only states that she has a large number of sexual partners. The only way you could view it as misogynistic is if you inferred that jeffraider meant that she was "a slut" for it, but then you'd be guilty of the very thing you're arguing against - being offended by the words, not the meaning (EDIT : re-reading this seems I didn't quite get the point I was trying to get across, but I can't think how else to say it) - because I'm pretty sure that nowhere in that passage jeffraider says anything of the sort.

I think you're blowing this whole thing out of proportion Endie, but you do raise an interesting point about "banning words" : when someone calls someone a kike, I immediately think "they are referring to Jewish people in a derogatory manner", because that's how the word has been used for decades, and I haven't been exposed to it in any other way. However, nigger has a lesser association with its meaning due to its prevalence on this site making it something I see every day, leading me to think "the person using that word doesn't like the target of it very much!", and even more likewise with faggot, which I see all over the place, and even use myself, as not a derogatory term for homosexuals, but a "neutral" insult. It's interesting to note these things, as they give you insight into what makes a word offensive to some, and not to others - which seems to be entirely derived from what context it's used in. It's all relative and merits further thought


At any rate, until the situation are clarified, I'll remove my sig. I know you were being facetious but mods are not above any rule on this site - we neither are, nor perceive ourselves to be, some sort of ruling caste that's above the law. We fully expect to receive due infraction for our own violations. Thank you for pointing out something that offended you via the report system, it shall be corrected

[Endie]

I was not being facetious at all, nor was I even slightly offended: you want to ban humourous use of edgy language on your site, then live by it, but do so consistently. Go to the Guardian Online website or the NYT site or somewhere similar - let alone a female-oriented site - and use that sig. You'll be banned at once, because if you believe that words themselves matter, rather than humour or intent or meaning or context, then the statement - in the context of an insult - that someone's mother fucks 1500 men is pure misogyny.

You say that that's ridiculous. You're right. I agree. Vinata's rule is ridiculous. But if you want to stand up for him then that's not even an edge case: that's a central example. Basically, you should take a look at the ridiculousness of such a rule, and that's why I reported the post the same way that someone reported securitas for a sig offence under Vinta's New World Order. Securitas was infracted and you weren't but hey one rule for one poster...

[Mira Z]

you open a pandoras box of ill-defined grey areas where scots abuse themelves

We're the only people that can do it properly.

[T'Renn]

I also agree that the best way to go into damage control mode and try to fix something is after a site admin makes a unilateral change and half the contributing userbase gets pissed off and oh-sevens. This isn't going to lead to just a few people leaving, Vinata. What's going to happen is some schmuck is going to see that this place has become the PC Palace and will pony up for some hosting and a copy of vbulletin, and start a new eve forum with no stupid rules like this. Do you think that this site is so unique and wonderful that it can't be easily replaced by some nerd with a few hundred bucks in his bank account and an afternoon to spare? A little word of mouth and it'd be a mass migration, and this site would die a pathetic slow death. That would be sad, as I really do enjoy it here. However I won't cotton to nanny state bullshit on a fucking eve-related forum. It's Eve... I mean fuck. Before you say "this does not apply to EOU" it's too late. You already said it applies to Foreplay (holy shit) and pretty much every other sub forum on the site. It's a dumb rule. You have your reasons, but you're about to cut your nose off to spite your face. People LOVE this site, and you're dragging them away just because you have your panties in a twist over :words: - gg, shit admin.

[Don Peyote]

I was not being facetious at all, nor was I even slightly offended: you want to ban humourous use of edgy language on your site, then live by it, but do so consistently. Go to the Guardian Online website or the NYT site or somewhere similar - let alone a female-oriented site - and use that sig. You'll be banned at once, because if you believe that words themselves matter, rather than humour or intent or meaning or context, then the statement - in the context of an insult - that someone's mother fucks 1500 men is pure misogyny.

All right, I yield the argument on that front. I accept that if anyone not tainted by being an MMO player saw that sig then it would be removed

You say that that's ridiculous. You're right. I agree. Vinata's rule is ridiculous. But if you want to stand up for him then that's not even an edge case: that's a central example. Basically, you should take a look at the ridiculousness of such a rule, and that's why I reported the post the same way that someone reported securitas for a sig offence under Vinta's New World Order. Securitas was infracted and you weren't but hey one rule for one poster...

Never thought the day would come where you'd be on the same side as Securitas... I see your point, but I resent the allegation that there is favouritism shown to mods. That doesn't go on, and it's not something I would ever want to be part of. If I break a rule, I fully expect to be infracted by Vinata or Xutech for it, likewise if I ever went on a power trip and started doing all kinds of stupid shit and abusing my privilege. I think of myself as a member of this community foremost, who just happens to be a moderator, and expect to be treated like any other member.

As for "standing up for Vinata", in principle I believe this is a good rule. I thought that when it was announced, and I still think it now - there is nothing wrong with wanting less racism/misogyny/homophobia on this forum. However, people have since pointed out practical limitations and flaws, but at the very least I hope that even if the "use of slurs" part is changed, then there will be concrete rules against homophobic and racist/misogynistic (let's just call it HARM to save time from now on) posts and rants. Before, on the rare occasions these have cropped up, they've been infracted for being generally "bad" posts, rather than any specific "this kind of thinking is pretty backwards and socially unacceptable, and we need to inform the poster" rule.

[Jean Leaner]

The point is theres a difference between what we post here, and blatent racism. You don't see us going around starting threads in IPEST or any other board talking about how much we hate the blacks and think their ruining the world. Or about how the Holocaust was a great idea, and we should go ahead and restart it because Adolf hitler was a visionary. You'd ban us in an instant for it even without a rule specifically against it. This is purely to make us use nicer words, and that's coming from someone who doesn't run around calling everything on the boards a nigger. Theres a vast difference between being racist and calling each other names on the internet. This is attempting to combine the two, and to be honest thats just fucked up.

[Endie]

All right, I yield the argument on that front. I accept that if anyone not tainted by being an MMO player saw that sig then it would be removed



Never thought the day would come where you'd be on the same side as Securitas... I see your point, but I resent the allegation that there is favouritism shown to mods. That doesn't go on, and it's not something I would ever want to be part of. If I break a rule, I fully expect to be infracted by Vinata or Xutech for it, likewise if I ever went on a power trip and started doing all kinds of stupid shit and abusing my privilege. I think of myself as a member of this community foremost, who just happens to be a moderator, and expect to be treated like any other member.

As for "standing up for Vinata", in principle I believe this is a good rule. I thought that when it was announced, and I still think it now - there is nothing wrong with wanting less racism/misogyny/homophobia on this forum. However, people have since pointed out practical limitations and flaws, but at the very least I hope that even if the "use of slurs" part is changed, then there will be concrete rules against homophobic and racist/misogynistic (let's just call it HARM to save time from now on) posts and rants. Before, on the rare occasions these have cropped up, they've been infracted for being generally "bad" posts, rather than any specific "this kind of thinking is pretty backwards and socially unacceptable, and we need to inform the poster" rule.

That's part of my point: actual instances of some twat coming on and ranting unironically about his detestation of the Jewish race or something are vanishingly small,. I don't see why everyone should be banned from using certain words when informal "don't be a faggot" modding, together with peer pressure through rep, has dealt with it successfully and unobtrusively for years . I am also struggling to see why those should suddenly be explicitly licensed in EOU, but each to their own.

Thus, since there is essentially no problem requiring a new or formal policy against the use of given words, the institution of such a policy is clearly not aimed at changing problematic behaviour or addressing some looming crisis: it is only justifiable in terms of imposing a political viewpoint or privileging certain groups who are viewed as worth of protection.

[Endie]

Dammit Jean said it first.

[Jean Leaner]

You just use too many :words: sometimes Endie my well spoken friend.

E: 666 posts lol

[Endie]

I draft and revise almost every post it takes me ages sometimes.

[Jean Leaner]

I just spew words out and click submit, then realize I said something stupid and go back and edit it to be slightly less stupid. Most of the time at least.

[Manfred Hideous]

All right, I yield the argument on that front. I accept that if anyone not tainted by being an MMO player saw that sig then it would be removed



Never thought the day would come where you'd be on the same side as Securitas... I see your point, but I resent the allegation that there is favouritism shown to mods. That doesn't go on, and it's not something I would ever want to be part of. If I break a rule, I fully expect to be infracted by Vinata or Xutech for it, likewise if I ever went on a power trip and started doing all kinds of stupid shit and abusing my privilege. I think of myself as a member of this community foremost, who just happens to be a moderator, and expect to be treated like any other member.

As for "standing up for Vinata", in principle I believe this is a good rule. I thought that when it was announced, and I still think it now - there is nothing wrong with wanting less racism/misogyny/homophobia on this forum. However, people have since pointed out practical limitations and flaws, but at the very least I hope that even if the "use of slurs" part is changed, then there will be concrete rules against homophobic and racist/misogynistic (let's just call it HARM to save time from now on) posts and rants. Before, on the rare occasions these have cropped up, they've been infracted for being generally "bad" posts, rather than any specific "this kind of thinking is pretty backwards and socially unacceptable, and we need to inform the poster" rule.

Infract people for being extreme assholes, then. It's this nebulous rule system that's misconceived. You can't say "faggot" but you can if you're gay or saying the word in certain contexts. "Whitey" is OK but the N-bomb is not (unless you're an N-bomb? I assume it's the same as gays). The potential discrepancies in application go on.

If you insist on restricting the use of hate speech, then do so universally. I think you'll still piss off half the site but at least you would be doing so while managing an equitable rules system. Vinata's exception laden idea is utterly stupid.

Why not call a mod meeting and go back to the drawing board? That would seem a reasonable course of action, wouldn't you agree?

[Don Peyote]

That's part of my point: actual instances of some twat coming on and ranting unironically about his detestation of the Jewish race or something are vanishingly small,. I don't see why everyone should be banned from using certain words when informal "don't be a faggot" modding, together with peer pressure through rep, has dealt with it successfully and unobtrusively for years . I am also struggling to see why those should suddenly be explicitly licensed in EOU, but each to their own.

Thus, since there is essentially no problem requiring a new or formal policy against the use of given words, the institution of such a policy is clearly not aimed at changing problematic behaviour or addressing some looming crisis: it is only justifiable in terms of imposing a political viewpoint or privileging certain groups who are viewed as worth of protection.

Apparently, there have been cases of prominent members of this community doing this (I say apparently because this is only something I have been told which must have happened while I was off for a few months) in IPEST, launching tirades against ethnic groupings. Regardless of whether it's a problem now, in the interest of clarification, I for one would appreciate a solid rule to go back on in those cases as and when they occur. "Being extreme assholes", as Manfred says, is not enough of a justification, elsewise we'd ban half the forum.

Why not call a mod meeting and go back to the drawing board? That would seem a reasonable course of action, wouldn't you agree?

Rest assured we're all debating this, and have been on and off for weeks.

[Endie]

Well, it would be cool to get a decision because I have a big post to write on today's massive GIA theft from AAA, the industrial-scale awoxing and booting of a corp from the alliance and I need to know where I'm cross-posting it.

[Don Peyote]

Well, it would be cool to get a decision because I have a big post to write on today's massive GIA theft from AAA, the industrial-scale awoxing and booting of a corp from the alliance and I need to know where I'm cross-posting it.

If your concern is "Will I get infracted for posting this to Kugutsumen?" then I can categorically state that you will not, even under the current rules, even if you blog that post to the front page, get infracted for any of it (although I doubt that is your concern), and I will be very disappointed if I am proven wrong. If your concern is "Is Kugutsumen somewhere I want to continue crossposting these updates in light of recent changes?", I can't answer that.

I will say though, that I value your updates - they're always well written and often raise a smile, and I would especially like to hear about -A- (who are, by the way, shit), getting robbed. It would be a great shame if you were to withhold cross-posting future updates here. Likewise with Grath's contribution to Shit on Kugu.