Shooting Rampage (Sorry, am horrible at titles)

**Frederick Garrish** · 2012-07-21

As most of you know, about 24 hours ago some dickhead decided to go shoot up a movie theater and killed a bunch of people who were just trying to watch the new Batman movie. Got into some debate where I got mad, so thought I'd bring it here to kugu.

The point I'm trying to make is these mass shootings are a almost solely US based atrocity, and that it's a sociatal problem that has nothing to do with politics or gun control, or anything like that. These crazy fucks snap and kill a bunch of people, but mental health is not a US only problem and Gun Control is lax in many other countries where this shit doesn't happen, so my question is why is this a US problem? Or am I blind to international news or something? Know there's readers from all over the world here in kugu. Maybe I can achieve some enlightenment here.

Ok, well that isn't very realistic here, but maybe get some bad posting going or something.

**Marivauder** · 2012-07-21

i tried too hard to make a pun from this event but i just couldn't

**madp0k** · 2012-07-21

Originally Posted by Marivauder

i tried too hard to make a pun from this event but i just couldn't

They say down loading movies off the internet is killing the movie business but its still safer than going to the cinema?

**Manfred Hideous** · 2012-07-21

Originally Posted by madp0k

On a serious note, he managed to buy all the guns legally, if you are able to buy an ar-15 for self defense, what the fuck are you defending against?

The government. I'm not some militia nut but the constitution has that provision so that we don't end up under the thumb of the next King George.

For those of you who think America is like the old west, you're getting bad info. The vast majority of gun violence is due to gang related stuff. Legalizing drugs would (IMHO) solve 70% or more gun deaths. Prohibition ALWAYS drives criminal enterprise.

Specific to this case, the dude wired his home with explosives. Do you really think the lack of a gun will stop people who are committed to their crazy atrocity?

**Agathor** · 2012-07-21

If Iceland would have a school shooting, the USA would have to have 1000 school shootings per year to have the same statistics.

Brotip to mah US bros, you might want to call the police if your neighbour is gathering arms for a small army.

**Brooks Puuntai** · 2012-07-21

Ah the bible thumpers have already chimed in.. Its because of America's lack of God.. Btw Gohmert is a US Congressman.

"You know what really gets me, as a Christian, is to see the ongoing attacks on Judeo-Christian beliefs, and then some senseless crazy act of terror like this takes place," Gohmert said."Some of us happen to believe that when our founders talked about guarding our virtue and freedom, that that was important," he said. "Whether it's John Adams saying our Constitution was made only for moral and religious people ... Ben Franklin, only a virtuous people are capable of freedom, as nations become corrupt and vicious they have more need of masters ... We have been at war with the very pillars, the very foundation of this country."

Gohmert said that may be true, but suggested the shootings were still "a terrorist act" that could have been avoided if the country placed a higher value on God.

Source:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1689099.html

**somedude76** · 2012-07-21

Don't take away the guns! If a crazy fuck can't use a gun he'll probably build a bomb!!

Some people are just crazy. I also think some people want the notoriety. This guy booby-trapped his house FFS.

I'm very much against any gun control measures, especially the knee jerk reaction type. However I am in favor of restrictions on the other things this fucker had like a full body armor and tear gas. Where the hell did he get this stuff?

**Manfred Hideous** · 2012-07-21

Originally Posted by somedude76

Don't take away the guns! If a crazy fuck can't use a gun he'll probably build a bomb!!

Some people are just crazy. I also think some people want the notoriety. This guy booby-trapped his house FFS.

I'm very much against any gun control measures, especially the knee jerk reaction type. However I am in favor of restrictions on the other things this fucker had like a full body armor and tear gas. Where the hell did he get this stuff?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/Personal-Sec...lletproof+vest

Not even that expensive.

**somedude76** · 2012-07-21

Edit: oops, wrong thread...how did I....

**Barry Zuckerkorn** · 2012-07-22

Originally Posted by Frederick Garrish

As most of you know, about 24 hours ago some dickhead decided to go shoot up a movie theater and killed a bunch of people who were just trying to watch the new Batman movie. Got into some debate where I got mad, so thought I'd bring it here to kugu.

The point I'm trying to make is these mass shootings are a almost solely US based atrocity, and that it's a sociatal problem that has nothing to do with politics or gun control, or anything like that. These crazy fucks snap and kill a bunch of people, but mental health is not a US only problem and Gun Control is lax in many other countries where this shit doesn't happen, so my question is why is this a US problem? Or am I blind to international news or something? Know there's readers from all over the world here in kugu. Maybe I can achieve some enlightenment here.

Ok, well that isn't very realistic here, but maybe get some bad posting going or something.

What you experienced actually has a name. I had to study many disciplines for my education, one of which was Criminal Justice. What has happened to you is called "The Dramatic Fallacy" of crime. In short, I bet you get your news primarily from US based sources, which in turns only exposes you largely to United States based news so you can't hear about all the nut jobs in the rest of the world. Couple that with the fact that when horrifying crimes do occur everyone hears about it and knows about so even though a horrible murder may have taken place across the country from you, it still feels as though more murders are happening now than before.

Think of it like in terms of old people. They may say "Back in my day kids where good spirited and waited for marriage and their was no crime blah,blah,blah" but we know that is not the case. It comes down to perception.

So in short op you were wrong but it is not your fault, but the fault of how the human mind works and how news is reported.

EDIT: I just re-watched all six seasons of Dexter and the city of Miami has both the most serial killers per capita and the worst fucking homicide department of all time.

**Manfred Hideous** · 2012-07-22

Originally Posted by Barry Zuckerkorn

What you experienced actually has a name. I had to study many disciplines for my education, one of which was Criminal Justice. What has happened to you is called "The Dramatic Fallacy" of crime. In short, I bet you get your news primarily from US based sources, which in turns only exposes you largely to United States based news so you can't hear about all the nut jobs in the rest of the world. Couple that with the fact that when horrifying crimes do occur everyone hears about it and knows about so even though a horrible murder may have taken place across the country from you, it still feels as though more murders are happening now than before.

Think of it like in terms of old people. They may say "Back in my day kids where good spirited and waited for marriage and their was no crime blah,blah,blah" but we know that is not the case. It comes down to perception.

So in short op you were wrong but it is not your fault, but the fault of how the human mind works and how news is reported.

EDIT: I just re-watched all six seasons of Dexter and the city of Miami has both the most serial killers per capita and the worst fucking homicide department of all time.

On a larger scope, all news going across the Atlantic and Pacific (both directions) is, if not biased, reported with less context.

We need to teach our kids about the importance of traversal. I don't know how many shots he got off but his efficiency was only about 12%. What a scrub.

**Barry Zuckerkorn** · 2012-07-22

Originally Posted by Manfred Hideous

On a larger scope, all news going across the Atlantic and Pacific (both directions) is, if not biased, reported with less context.

We need to teach our kids about the importance of traversal. I don't know how many shots he got off but his efficiency was only about 12%. What a scrub.

It's not so much the biased nature of media or the context(even on a larger scale) when dealing with the "fallacy of crime", but the fact that bad news is good news per say. A guy who sliced up a bunch of pre-school children will make the front page while a guy who helped a bunch of pre-school children by giving them each a backpack or school or something won't even make the paper (lol printed paper for news).

In term's of his shooting ability it was pretty fucking awful. With 59 injured and 24 dead he must have had little or no training. As a competition and self defense shooter the particulars as morbid as they may be hopefully released eventually for training purposes. Was he mozambiquing people or just going to scoring zone hits hell maybe just spray and pray? What kind of ammunition was used, ball, hollow point, jacketed. Where on the bodies do the hit percentages total? Etc, etc Should be interesting as more details are released.

**Mfume** · 2012-07-22

wrong account

**poaw** · 2012-07-22

Originally Posted by Barry Zuckerkorn

As a competition and self defense shooter the particulars as morbid as they may.....

I'm actually interested in asking you a bunch of questions about your life now. Because the subject of how you formed your opinion on trhe value of human lie and how you apply it is something people are looking at right now (and it's effects on society). Mostly because far from being a generation of sniveling and weak-willed pussies (ie a reflection of modern society) the current generation of soldiers (and by extension society) seem to have almost no problem killing. In WW2 even in units known for their aggression only 25% of them would actually fire their weapons. It stayed pretty consistant through Korea and Vietnam after, but in the Iraq and Afghan wars it's somehow skyrocketed (talking like 80-90% of guys are willing to pull the trigger while aiming at a human being that they can see). Chaplains trained to console soldiers about the ethical dilemnas related to killing people struggled because few seem to care.

More related to the specific mental aspect of this case though is this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=PezlFNTGWv4

TLDR: Don't appeal to the narcisisstic (sp?) impulses by plastering his face and recaps of his actions during 24/7 saturation coverage. They're trying to get recognition that they feel is unfairly being withheld, that's why they're constantly trying to one up the last mass shooting, because they have to be known as the VERY BEST EVER.

**Night** · 2012-07-22

Originally Posted by poaw

In WW2 even in units known for their aggression only 25% of them would actually fire their weapons. It stayed pretty consistant through Korea and Vietnam after, but in the Iraq and Afghan wars it's somehow skyrocketed (talking like 80-90% of guys are willing to pull the trigger while aiming at a human being that they can see). Chaplains trained to console soldiers about the ethical dilemnas related to killing people struggled because few seem to care.

If you're referring to SLA Marshall et. al., the change has more to do with changed training than a societal shift. (Starting with going from conscription to the AVF.) The low number was considered a problem and they worked on ways to correct it.

**Barry Zuckerkorn** · 2012-07-22

Originally Posted by poaw

I'm actually interested in asking you a bunch of questions about your life now. Because the subject of how you formed your opinion on trhe value of human lie and how you apply it is something people are looking at right now (and it's effects on society). Mostly because far from being a generation of sniveling and weak-willed pussies (ie a reflection of modern society) the current generation of soldiers (and by extension society) seem to have almost no problem killing. In WW2 even in units known for their aggression only 25% of them would actually fire their weapons. It stayed pretty consistant through Korea and Vietnam after, but in the Iraq and Afghan wars it's somehow skyrocketed (talking like 80-90% of guys are willing to pull the trigger while aiming at a human being that they can see). Chaplains trained to console soldiers about the ethical dilemnas related to killing people struggled because few seem to care.

More related to the specific mental aspect of this case though is this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=PezlFNTGWv4

TLDR: Don't appeal to the narcisisstic (sp?) impulses by plastering his face and recaps of his actions during 24/7 saturation coverage. They're trying to get recognition that they feel is unfairly being withheld, that's why they're constantly trying to one up the last mass shooting, because they have to be known as the VERY BEST EVER.

Feel free to ask away via PM.

The topic you raise is very interesting. A book you may find interesting is "Into the Kill Zone" by David Klinger as it goes into what police officers thought process was like before, during, and after the shooting. The research leads to different avenues of thought on the topic of the human psych and the actual effect of taking another ones life. In terms of our current generation, a class I had to attend on psychology in media (I spend way to much time in classrooms) was discussing the role that violent media had on society. What they theorize to have found is that behaviorally watching violent media would not have a large impact. However it becomes a situation when you take the aggregate of violent media across many generations it does lead to being more prone to violent acts. (beware this is many, many lectures and study's condensed into a TLDR)

However another wrench to throw in that while we may be more able to 'pull the trigger at the enemy' we are now diagnosing post traumatic stress syndrome. We don't really have any decent data on PTSD when it comes to WW2 and other conflicts but if we did I would love to conduct a study to see if how the human mind deals with combat afterward has changed as even though we may mentally be able to pull the trigger easier.
(Keep in mind this was covered 2 years ago so the current school of thought may not reflect that anymore.)

Originally Posted by Wusti

Why has no-one quoted fact and figures on a population adjusted basis yet? (IE PER CAPITA MANNY!!! That's what it means!!!)

That ought to tell you something and from memory more US Citizens die to gun crime PER CAPITA than any other Western democracy by a massive factor. Not just in massacres but every day crime as well - and tbh I think that is a far more telling basis for judgement than random massacres.

Indeed wutsi, we love our guns!

**somedude76** · 2012-07-22

Originally Posted by Wusti

Why has no-one quoted fact and figures on a population adjusted basis yet? (IE PER CAPITA MANNY!!! That's what it means!!!)

That ought to tell you something and from memory more US Citizens die to gun crime PER CAPITA than any other Western democracy by a massive factor. Not just in massacres but every day crime as well - and tbh I think that is a far more telling basis for judgement than random massacres.

I've always wondered what percentage of gun deaths are gang related. Then if you subtract gang violence from the numbers I wonder how the US would rank. Part of me thinks gang related gun deaths should get an asterisk. They're mostly just shooting each other so it has less of an affect on the general population in my mind.

Too lazy to find out though.

**Don Peyote** · 2012-07-22

Originally Posted by somedude76

I've always wondered what percentage of gun deaths are gang related. Then if you subtract gang violence from the numbers I wonder how the US would rank. Part of me thinks gang related gun deaths should get an asterisk. They're mostly just shooting each other so it has less of an affect on the general population in my mind.

Too lazy to find out though.

Gangs are a part of the general population. The ready availability of firearms contributes in part to gang gun crime statistics, and to rule them out is counter-intuitive

**Don Peyote** · 2012-07-22

This thread has, as I feared, derailed into a debate about gun control - if anyone wants to carry this on, I'm moving the "gunz r bad/no gunz r gud" posts into a new thread so this thread can go back to talking about the specific shooting in Aurora and related events/developments

Left some of the less derailing posts in as splitting them between two threads would've made things confusing

**Manfred Hideous** · 2012-07-23

Originally Posted by Barry Zuckerkorn

Feel free to ask away via PM.

The topic you raise is very interesting. A book you may find interesting is "Into the Kill Zone" by David Klinger as it goes into what police officers thought process was like before, during, and after the shooting. The research leads to different avenues of thought on the topic of the human psych and the actual effect of taking another ones life. In terms of our current generation, a class I had to attend on psychology in media (I spend way to much time in classrooms) was discussing the role that violent media had on society. What they theorize to have found is that behaviorally watching violent media would not have a large impact. However it becomes a situation when you take the aggregate of violent media across many generations it does lead to being more prone to violent acts. (beware this is many, many lectures and study's condensed into a TLDR)

However another wrench to throw in that while we may be more able to 'pull the trigger at the enemy' we are now diagnosing post traumatic stress syndrome. We don't really have any decent data on PTSD when it comes to WW2 and other conflicts but if we did I would love to conduct a study to see if how the human mind deals with combat afterward has changed as even though we may mentally be able to pull the trigger easier.
(Keep in mind this was covered 2 years ago so the current school of thought may not reflect that anymore.)

Indeed wutsi, we love our guns!

I think part of the problem with PTSD these days is that we have a smaller force and individual solders have more days of actuall combat (and the stress that goes with it even when not under fire) than previously. My google foo is failing me today but I did find this:

http://www.aacc.net/2011/05/17/our-w...auma%E2%80%9D/

I know that correlation doesn't equal causation and that we're better at diagnosing trauma now but it does seem the average soldier today faces far more days of stress than WWII and a still measurable difference from even Vietnam.

E:
For topic relevance I would like to mention that I saw and survived a showing of this movie yesterday. The only shots fired were on screen.