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Thread: [DEV BLAWG] Ship balancing winter update

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    Default [DEV BLAWG] Ship balancing winter update

    Things have been going well on the ship balancing front as we ramp up to our winter expansion in the coming months. We began earlier this year with rebalancing combat frigates for Inferno, and then delivered improved mining barges through CCP Tallest. We also gave you attack frigates and rookie ship changes despite summer vacations taking many staff away. That’s a total of 19 ships, which is not too shabby to start with, considering it’s a little less than 10% of all available EVE Online vessels. Adding CCP Fozzie to our team has been a great aid in getting things moving along, a bit like hiring an extra half-naked loud hairy vocalist to a heavy metal band. Plus, he doesn't eat much (a few peanuts we launch at him in the morning do the trick), and usually he sleeps in a dark corner somewhere and works 22 hours a day. Not a bad deal.
    Despite being happy with our first round of balancing changes, work has barely started and we really want to ramp things up for the next expansion. So, let’s check what you are getting for winter.
    David versus Goliath (16 ships)

    Frigates have the highest balancing priority so far, and the experience gained with Inferno is definitely going to be put into good use here. Here is the updated list which has changed a little since Fanfest 2012.

    • Remaining combat frigates: Kestrel, Tristan and Breacher. Previously expected to become missile ships, we decided to keep their role in the same category as the Tormentor, Punisher, Merlin, Incursus and Rifter for consistency and simplicity purposes. The Kestrel will now have a new long range bonus. The Tristan is being overhauled into a true drone boat, while the Breacher becomes a resilient close range missile platform thanks to its shield boost amount per level. Would you like to know more?
    • Exploration / scanning frigates: Magnate, Heron, Imicus, Probe. All of these ships are now properly focused by having mini-profession bonuses, increased probe scan strength and far better slot layouts in general. Would you like to know more?
    • Disruption frigates: Crucifier, Griffin, Maulus, Vigil. The Crucifier is now fully dedicated to tracking disruption. The Griffin bonus remains unchanged, but has a better slot layout. The Maulus loses the hybrid damage bonus and specializes in sensor dampening with drone support, while the Vigil will no longer have a speed bonus and will focus on target painting. Would you like to know more?
    • Support frigates: Inquisitor, Bantam, Navitas, Burst. A mix of formerly known missile and mining frigates that have been revamped to have logistics capabilities mounted on small, mobile hulls. Combined with a small remote armor repairer and shield transfer overhaul, it means new pilots or people interested in logistics support will now have a proper upgrade path all the way to the famously known Tech 2 logistic cruisers. Such a change will also dramatically shake up combat due to introducing repairing capabilities on small scale frigate fleets. Would you like to know more?
    • ORE frigate: Unable to mount Strip Miners, it will neither have the yield, ore hold or resilience of the Mining Barges. Instead, it will focus on mobility for ore retrieval in hostile space (read ninja mining), as well as acting as a stepping stone for new pilots. Keep an eye on “Features & Ideas” forums for more information on this hull. Please refer to one of our previous blogs to see concept art of it

    Lethal thrashing (8 ships)

    As hinted at in a previous blog, destroyers are also receiving some well-deserved love.

    • Existing destroyers: Coercer, Cormorant, Catalyst, Thrasher. Formerly known as Tier 1 destroyers, they are mainly in good shape since their first buff in Crucible. There are still a few points that need to be looked at before we can move on. Would you like to know more?
    • New destroyers: while the exact attributes are not ready for review so far we can explain their roles a bit more than in the previous blog. Main roles will focus on medium range damage projection through drones and missiles. Amarr and Gallente will most likely have fully bonused flights of light drones to play with while being supported by several turret slots. Caldari and Minmatar will boast high-slots fully loaded with missile launchers. Slot layout is expected to be 13 in total with overall speed reduced and signature radius increased compared to existing existing destroyer hulls. In all cases please remember this still is work in progress; a new “Features & Ideas” forum thread will be opened when more details are ready for public review.


    Cruising full speed (16 ships)

    Due to the ship balancing team's excellent work during the summer we are able to move ahead of schedule and revamp all Tech 1 cruisers for winter. Tech 1 cruisers have fallen out of favor over time as new ship classes, like the new battlecruisers, have come along and made their role less useful in many cases. As a general rule of thumb we would like to change layout to 13-14 slots on all cruisers, slightly increase EHP and significantly improve mobility to make them viable against battlecruisers. Exact attributes are to be unveiled at a later date.

    • Support cruisers: Augoror, Osprey, Exequror, Scythe. These almost extinct hulls will see a new purpose for being properly refurbished as Tech 1 logistic ships. With removing their current mining role, our goal is to make them useful enough to be actively picked in fleets when Tech 2 logistics are not available instead of having the FC sending you back to your momma. CCP Fozzie will post new details soon (if he hasn’t already, for he is a rabid animal), so keep an eye on the “Features & Ideas” forum section.
    • Disruption cruisers: Arbitrator, Blackbird, Celestis, Bellicose. Our plan is to turn the Arbitrator and Bellicose into combat / EW hybrids (a bit like combat recons if you will), while the Blackbird and Celestis are more suited for fleet duty. The Arbitrator is quite good, but will receive a boost to be kept on par with the other revamped cruisers so it doesn’t become sad. The Blackbird is quite good so no major changes will happen here. The Celestis could use some real love due to the poor state of dampeners so expect the hybrid damage bonus to go away and we will expand on this in more detail in the future. The Bellicose will combine target painting with missiles on a mean, fast hull that will resemble the Caracal as an anti-frigate platform.
    • Attack cruisers: Omen, Caracal, Thorax, Stabber. We want to clearly revamp these four ships to be dedicated to speed and damage. The Omen must be one of the most frustrating ships to fit so we are going to look at it. Like CCP Guard, it should be a mean miniaturized version of the Armageddon, not a public target for bad-taste midget tossing jokes. The Caracal is also good, but again, could use a tweak in regards to fitting and mobility to make better use of its damage projection. The Thorax will be revamped to fit the attack class role which means making sure its mobile enough to punch your face at close range without wasting a ship bonus dedicated to Microwarpdrive capacitor usage. The Stabber will most likely have its speed bonus integrated into the hull to make room for something more dedicated to Minmatar combat doctrine – some of you will ponder, surely that must be a salvaging bonus?
    • Combat cruisers: Maller, Moa, Vexor, Rupture. Poor, sad Maller, your whole existence is a tragedy. Please let us put an end to this travesty by properly turning you into a mini-Abaddon, with an armor resistance and laser damage bonus to actually serve as something else than bait. The beautifully sleek shaped Moa has two options, just like the Merlin before it: either close range role with a shield resistance and hybrid turret damage combination, or sniping duty with hybrid turret damage and range synergy. Play testing and feedback will tell which one is picked. The Vexor is a good ship, and will receive some resilience boosts to fit into the new combat role. The Rupture, while staying a solid and versatile choice, could use more resilience and speed as well.


    In the end

    So all things being equal, we will be giving you 40 revamped hulls to play with this winter which is around 20% of all EVE Online ships. Not only does this allow new players to be more competitive from the start, it also ties well with Factional Warfare revamps and gives everyone more excuses to shoot others in the face while singing Christmas carols. It also gets us so much closer of the next long awaited ship class that needs to be purified with fire: battlecruisers. Prophecy, Ferox, Brutix, Cyclone, we know how you feel. Drake and Hurricane, we are coming for you too.
    As a reminder, we would like to state there are no skill changes planned for the winter expansion - your Destroyers and Battlecruisers skills are safe for now, as we are not adjusting spaceship command skill trees until we are done with the Battlecruiser class.
    Tired of reading, want to participate in balancing discussion? Then don’t hesitate to hop in the forum threads mentioned above and give constructive feedback. CCP Fozzie and I are on call. Want to actually test the ships and shoot some Devs in the process? Then come to Duality on the 19th-21st of September, where our first round of play testing will take place: all frigates and existing destroyers will be available for players to use – except the ORE frig, new destroyers and cruisers, which will be looked at later. As mentioned above, many Devs will also hop in to give you a chance to get sweet, sweet revenge for altering your preferred hull. Gotta catch em all! Please see this wiki article on how to connect to Duality.
    Before we forget, since we also love shiny pictures, here is a small summary on how the revamped ship role layout looks like.

    Hang on, what’s that on the background? Looks familiar, let’s have a better look at it shall we?

    As the icing on the cake from our Art department (many thanks to all the people involved, including the amazing CCP Phor), we would like to let you know that the many cries of despair from Stabber / Vagabond pilots have been heard, and you will also get revamped models as part of the winter deal.

    Enjoy!

    View article...

  2. #2
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    I saw this earlier.

    As the CEO of a mostly-newbie corp I jizzed in my pants.
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    Caldari and Minmatar will boast high-slots fully loaded with missile launchers. Slot layout is expected to be 13 in total with overall speed reduced and signature radius increased compared to existing existing destroyer hulls.

    Oh dear.

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    With the buffs to light missile launchers we got ourselves a new frigate level alpha ship(s)

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    With thirteen total slots, the new Destroyers will either have 8/3/2 or 8/2/3 layouts; if the bonus is 5% to light missile damage or ROF that's 232 DPS with two BCS, 264 DPS with three BCS for Fury missiles or 208 DPS with two BCS, 240 DPS with three BCS for Faction missiles.

    It's hardly suicide Catalyst DPS, but considering the range/alpha and low cost/SP, they'll be murderous at range.

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    I like the Thorax hull MWD cap bonus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    With thirteen total slots, the new Destroyers will either have 8/3/2 or 8/2/3 layouts; if the bonus is 5% to light missile damage or ROF that's 232 DPS with two BCS, 264 DPS with three BCS for Fury missiles or 208 DPS with two BCS, 240 DPS with three BCS for Faction missiles.

    It's hardly suicide Catalyst DPS, but considering the range/alpha and low cost/SP, they'll be murderous at range.
    New AAA fleet doctrine; 10mn AB new Caldari destroyers.
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    Don't try to solve serious matters in the middle of the night Viribus's Avatar
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    Looks like all the T1 logi cruisers are getting significant tank increases and the Ruppy along with other cruisers probably will be as well.

    Because that's what EVE needs! Tankier ships!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Securitas View Post
    New AAA fleet doctrine; 10mn AB new Caldari destroyers.
    no troll, someone in PL theorycrafted a hawk-based alphafleet

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    I hope to god the Belli will be able to mount a full rack of missiles.

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    dat stabber. so...beautiful

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    Quote Originally Posted by ente View Post
    dat stabber

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    So are the new destroyers supposed to be even gankier than the current destroyers?
    If you kill enough of them they stop fighting - Gen. Curtis Lemay
    Fear the KKM

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim View Post
    So are the new destroyers supposed to be even gankier than the current destroyers?
    No; even at max skills and bling fit, the DPS is shite compared to Thrashers/Catalysts. As drone/light missile platforms however they'll have better DPS at range and prove capable of applying that DPS to frigates as well as larger targets.

    E: Actually, if we consider the (however unlikely considering the PG requirements) fitting of Rapid Light Missile Launchers (formerly Assault Launchers), the new missile dessies will perform as following:

    T2 Fury Missiles-
    296 DPS/344 overheated (2 BCS)
    328 DPS/392 overheated (3 BCS)

    Max range without rigs or implants is 57km, nbd.

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    This was already posted in Jimmychrist's thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    No; even at max skills and bling fit, the DPS is shite compared to Thrashers/Catalysts. As drone/light missile platforms however they'll have better DPS at range and prove capable of applying that DPS to frigates as well as larger targets.

    E: Actually, if we consider the (however unlikely considering the PG requirements) fitting of Rapid Light Missile Launchers (formerly Assault Launchers), the new missile dessies will perform as following:

    T2 Fury Missiles-
    296 DPS/344 overheated (2 BCS)
    328 DPS/392 overheated (3 BCS)

    Max range without rigs or implants is 57km, nbd.
    With the planned 10% dmg boost to light missiles along with a 20% reduction in explosion radius, a theoretical ship with 8 LML IIs could volley for 1400dmg at 55km~. Without a ship bonus to damage. That's kind of cool :3

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    I kinda wish they'd give dessies the same treatment as the new T3 BC's...allow them to use med guns/ml's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quesa View Post
    I kinda wish they'd give dessies the same treatment as the new T3 BC's...allow them to use med guns/ml's.
    That'd pretty much nix the purpose of the attack cruisers imo. It'd be great fun, but I don't want to wipe away all the good work that Ytterbium and Fozzie are doing with these cruisers

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    Don't try to solve serious matters in the middle of the night StevieTopSiders's Avatar
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    Here are these shiny new T1 frigates!

    They die in two volleys to a shiny new T1 destroyer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StevieTopSiders View Post
    Here are these shiny new T1 frigates!

    They die in two volleys to a shiny new T1 destroyer.
    Isnt that the point of the destroyer?

    I do like the new logi chain and refurbishment of the EW ships. Should make roams much more diverse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihaveahelmet View Post
    With the planned 10% dmg boost to light missiles along with a 20% reduction in explosion radius, a theoretical ship with 8 LML IIs could volley for 1400dmg at 55km~. Without a ship bonus to damage. That's kind of cool :3
    Oh god damn. Now I can't wait for winter.

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    Is there even a ship with 8 missile hardpoints in game? Besides the State Raven, obviously.

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    They should bring back nano, just for the week following christmas

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    I really like the idea of T1 logi cruisers - all these buffs should be really good for new players. Do we know what hull bonus's they will get yet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimFromIT View Post
    I really like the idea of T1 logi cruisers - all these buffs should be really good for new players. Do we know what hull bonus's they will get yet?
    Features & Ideas is chock full of threads with prototype ship stats for the new roles

    https://forums.eveonline.com/default...26&find=unread

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viribus View Post
    They should bring back nano, just for the week following christmas
    Was it really that OP? I joined within a few days of Apocrypha, so I've only ever heard mention of the nano nerf but never an explanation why nano was so terrible. It sucks because it sounds like it was a lot of fun flying souped up ships.

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    IIRC there's a video of Evil Edna doing something like 20k/second in a Crow on a 15km orbit. Yes, he's killing everything. No, he's not easy to catch.

    Pre-nano nerf small gang fighting was more often than not a Benny Hill chase sequence in space.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    IIRC there's a video of Evil Edna doing something like 20k/second in a Crow on a 15km orbit. Yes, he's killing everything. No, he's not easy to catch.

    Pre-nano nerf small gang fighting was more often than not a Benny Hill chase sequence in space.
    4km/s dominix lmao

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGyWMwHPF1k

    EDIT : here's the one that you were talking about

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksOJQ5biQmI

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred Hideous View Post
    Was it really that OP? I joined within a few days of Apocrypha, so I've only ever heard mention of the nano nerf but never an explanation why nano was so terrible. It sucks because it sounds like it was a lot of fun flying souped up ships.
    There was actually a popular pvp fit called the Nanodomi.

    I know, it's impossible to believe, people flying Gallente, but it's true. The Nanophoon was probably more popular, but in either case you had battleships approaching 3km/s.

    Evidence below:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    IIRC there's a video of Evil Edna doing something like 20k/second in a Crow on a 15km orbit. Yes, he's killing everything. No, he's not easy to catch.

    Pre-nano nerf small gang fighting was more often than not a Benny Hill chase sequence in space.
    That actually sounds like hella fun. Off to check out those vids...

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    I remember shooting at nano-hacs and having them out run the missiles - there was almost as much raging about nanofaggotry as tracking titans back in the day. They were good at fighting the blob but yeah, chasing after nano gangs was dull.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred Hideous View Post
    Was it really that OP? I joined within a few days of Apocrypha, so I've only ever heard mention of the nano nerf but never an explanation why nano was so terrible. It sucks because it sounds like it was a lot of fun flying souped up ships.
    Nano was broken because nanoships were impossible to track going full tilt, they could usually coast out of the 90% webs before taking any real damage, and it allowed classes of ships to perform the role of other classes, as max speed was dictated more by lowslots than by hull speed (this made a pimped out machariel faster than several of the 'ceptors)

    That said, they sacrificed a lot to go sanic speeds. Nanoships couldn't fit guns ('cause they couldn't track) so their damage was pretty pathetic, coming from drones and unbonused/partially bonused missile launchers. They were also hideously expensive in 2009 terms, and had no tank whatsoever; the 16km/s machariel, for example, did <300 DPS with cruises, had less EHP than a cruiser, and cost 4.5b back when that was a huge amount.

    And as broken as nano was, I think they went overboard nerfing speed fits. If a ship can sacrifice a whole rack of slots to a pimped-out tank and wind up with double the EHP, why shouldn't a speed fit be able to do the same and go twice as fast? As it is, nanos and ODs are pretty much only used to make a fast ship go a little faster, or more commonly when you don't have the CPU to fit something more useful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raketefrau View Post
    There was actually a popular pvp fit called the Nanodomi.

    I know, it's impossible to believe, people flying Gallente, but it's true. The Nanophoon was probably more popular, but in either case you had battleships approaching 3km/s.

    Evidence below:
    Evil Edna is going at 5km/s in a Domi on a reasonably tight orbit in the video I linked above

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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Peyote View Post
    Evil Edna is going at 5km/s in a Domi on a reasonably tight orbit in the video I linked above
    I won't have my posts become fodder for fact checkers.

    (also, it's not that I didn't read your post, we posted at p much the same time)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viribus View Post
    If a ship can sacrifice a whole rack of slots to a pimped-out tank and wind up with double the EHP, why shouldn't a speed fit be able to do the same and go twice as fast? As it is, nanos and ODs are pretty much only used to make a fast ship go a little faster, or more commonly when you don't have the CPU to fit something more useful.
    I remember CCP mentioning that the speeds some ships/fits were able to reach "broke" the physics engine of EVE. You see that same reason invoked whenever people suggest increasing missile velocity to make flight time less of a disadvantage for long range fits, specifically in the case of Cruise Missile sniping and range fitted HML Cerbs.

    I agree with your opinion that it was a little too harsh but the way I see things, pimping for speed is still possible with sub-BC hulls; you just rely on oversized prop mod instead of OD/nano stacking.

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    And yet some scrubs want to quash oversized prop as well.

    Anyway, back on topic, the changes look good, though I still wish they weren't making the cruisers tankier. EVE is tanky enough, they should really think about reducing the tank of everything else, namely BCs.

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    I don't see it accomplishing anything except making possible T1 blobs with the same function if slightly less effect than their T2 counterparts (Rupture/Scythe vs. Muninn/Scimitar)

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    Nano needed a nerf, there is hardly anyone who can logically deny that. The nano-age saw a whole host of ships being completely useless vs. and entire class of T2 and that's not a good thing for a complex game like Eve. However, it may have been a tad heavy handed with the combination of the scram change and the DR/stacking changes.

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    Nerf Nanoavatar

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    Piper in the Woods George Pissedofferson's Avatar
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    With these new logi frigates and new long range destroyers, does that mean we will see miniature versions of current HAC gangs? Less buffer, but more speed and cheap cheap cheap.
    :dance:

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Pissedofferson View Post
    With these new logi frigates and new long range destroyers, does that mean we will see miniature versions of current HAC gangs? Less buffer, but more speed and cheap cheap cheap.
    Except that destroyers are nearly one shot by anything larger than them already and they are now looking at increasing the sig of the Cormorant and Thrasher to match the others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quesa View Post
    Except that destroyers are nearly one shot by anything larger than them already and they are now looking at increasing the sig of the Cormorant and Thrasher to match the others.
    It's like flying a deadly pinata in a room full of 6 year olds with bats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raketefrau View Post
    It's like flying a deadly pinata in a room full of 6 year olds with bats.
    Sounds like a decent CCP-to-playerbase analogy, though it's not clear which is which in this situation.

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    What Good Is a Glass Dagger? madp0k's Avatar
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    With the new T1 Logistics cruisers do you think the Medium Energy Transfer Array II will now become a viable mod or stay an unusable piece of poo?

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    Quote Originally Posted by madp0k View Post
    With the new T1 Logistics cruisers do you think the Medium Energy Transfer Array II will now become a viable mod or stay an unusable piece of poo?
    Osprey and Auguror get a 200% bonus to transfer amount, so it looks like it'll be usable to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller View Post
    As it appears CCP is buffing Small RR/transfer mods, so might they also buff the Mediums when T1 Logi cruisers are buffed. I noticed that the deadspace medium versions are getting buffs (I believe they've already been buffed as of the last patch) so the T1/T2 variants might be getting similar treatment.
    This too, they'll hopefully get buffed

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    Quote Originally Posted by madp0k View Post
    With the new T1 Logistics cruisers do you think the Medium Energy Transfer Array II will now become a viable mod or stay an unusable piece of poo?
    As it appears CCP is buffing Small RR/transfer mods, so might they also buff the Mediums when T1 Logi cruisers are buffed. I noticed that the deadspace medium versions are getting buffs (I believe they've already been buffed as of the last patch) so the T1/T2 variants might be getting similar treatment.

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    What Good Is a Glass Dagger? madp0k's Avatar
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    I was worried that people were going to just stick large metas on like the t2 versions but it looks like the fitting issues will put a stop to that. Well I am officially a happy bunny if that is the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by madp0k View Post
    I was worried that people were going to just stick large metas on like the t2 versions but it looks like the fitting issues will put a stop to that. Well I am officially a happy bunny if that is the case.
    Once CCP finish sorting all this shit out I'm seriously considering coming back. All the pointless mods and ships have always just got on my nerves so much, but if they're satisfactorily fixed, it'd mean more to me than hundreds of new ships (although I want new ships too, and re-examining naming conventions and meta level progression would be nice!)

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    What Good Is a Glass Dagger? madp0k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Peyote View Post
    Once CCP finish sorting all this shit out I'm seriously considering coming back. All the pointless mods and ships have always just got on my nerves so much, but if they're satisfactorily fixed, it'd mean more to me than hundreds of new ships (although I want new ships too, and re-examining naming conventions and meta level progression would be nice!)
    There are a shit-ton of mods in this game that never see the light of day and it is good to see they are at least looking to sorting out some of these while they are in the process of doing the ships. I wish I had a noble reason for caring about this one module. cough t2bpo cough

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    Don't try to solve serious matters in the middle of the night Raketefrau's Avatar
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    Wait, I thought we decided that Don couldn't use the Tardis. Infract that motherfucker.

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