High-sec tackling with a neut alt for a corp with a wardec -- gaming the system?

**Raketefrau** · 2012-09-03

I dunno how long this has been going on, but I've seen a lot more of it lately.

DecCorp declares war against VictCorp.
VictCorp pilot scouts a system, sees it's clear, and jumps in
Neut suicide pilot tackles VictCorp ship
DecCorp jumps in and blows up VictCorp pilot, loots wreck, etc.

This hasn't happened to me, I'm not bittergraping here, just wondering what people think in general.

Part of me thinks "awesome," and part of me thinks "infraction." It's obviously gaming the wardec system.

**Securitas** · 2012-09-03

The more important question is whether anything could be done about it without messing up other important game mechanics. I don't think you could remove this "gaming of the system" without hurting suicide ganking or wardecs.

**Hilmar Keller** · 2012-09-03

Seems like an entirely legitimate use of mechanics to me. Why, having a wardec on you, would you fly anything around highsec incapable of either evading or destroying a suicide tackler?

**Grim** · 2012-09-03

Highsec wardec system has always been abused, and is sorta retarded in general. Thats why most on this forum are nullsec forumwarriors.

**DaiTengu** · 2012-09-03

It's a legitimate tactic. The neutral alt loses security status. It becomes exploitative if, after the neutral alt's security status was too low, the person recycled it and created another one.

**Ryan Rs** · 2012-09-03

That's not even close to an exploit.

e: neut tackling I mean

**anzoxe** · 2012-09-03

i don't see the problem

if you can't kill a throwaway tackler in time I don't know what to tell you

**ranbo das** · 2012-09-03

That's how Freight Club gets their kills. I for one think it's a clever use of mechanics.

**Dots** · 2012-09-03

This is a perfectly legitimate tactic and certainly not an exploit. There is a penalty in the form of sec status loss that hinders the ability of someone to do this indefinitely, unless they recycle alts.

Anyone who runs around hauling stuff in empire during wardecs deseves a kick in the ass either way. There are many easy ways to do the job without the threat of a wardec...

**Don Peyote** · 2012-09-03

Originally Posted by DaiTengu

It's a legitimate tactic. The neutral alt loses security status. It becomes exploitative if, after the neutral alt's security status was too low, the person recycled it and created another one.

Yeah, there's in game measures to punish it, I'd say It's no more of an exploit than neutral RR, and as the old idiom goes ; "All's fair in love & wardecs"

Anyway this sort of game mechanics discussion really belongs in SDF rather than EOU so I'll mosey it on over there

**Raketefrau** · 2012-09-03

Originally Posted by ranbo das

That's how Freight Club gets their kills. I for one think it's a clever use of mechanics.

Yeah, it seems that their whole style of gameplay is built around it. Which feels exploity. And pretty much every exploit of the system has seemed clever to me. They all do, until CCP buts the hammer down.

Anyway, I was just wondering what people thought about it. It's not like our opinions matter anyway, it's all on CCP.

[edit]I was going to count up the opinions and parse what people said to get some "real data" when I realized I could just add a poll to do that.

**Frederick Garrish** · 2012-09-03

Woot! First poll response!

I personally think it's kosher cuz screw high sec. Seriously though, this is no different then Neut RR, except not knowing mechanics like I used to, they'd still get concorded, which is the real question. How long can these guys actually hold down their target? Is it a suicide mission every time? And is there a counter like actually shooting the tackler? Guess I shoulda asked questions before I voted, as some details need to be explained on how Freight Club or whoever is actually able to use this as a viable tactic

**ihaveahelmet** · 2012-09-03

Originally Posted by DaiTengu

It's a legitimate tactic. The neutral alt loses security status. It becomes exploitative if, after the neutral alt's security status was too low, the person recycled it and created another one.

Pretty much this. It's no different than suicide ganking.

**Hilmar Keller** · 2012-09-04

Some people won't be happy with PVP until it's done in one system with warp gates preventing more than 5 dudes and Falcons from entering and you have to click I ACCEPT on a popup box explaining exactly what the enemy is going to do before anybody can aggress.

**Raketefrau** · 2012-09-04

Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller

Some people won't be happy with PVP until it's done in one system with warp gates preventing more than 5 dudes and Falcons from entering and you have to click I ACCEPT on a popup box explaining exactly what the enemy is going to do before anybody can aggress.

Um, I don't know or care what CCP or your personal opinion on Falcons are, but I can guarantee you that shit is a mortal sin.

Jesus hates the Falcons. And he's right.

**Hilmar Keller** · 2012-09-04

Confirming Falcons are only used by no-talent ass-clowns and Caldari apologists.

**Centra** · 2012-09-04

Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller

Confirming Falcons are only used by no-talent ass-clowns and Caldari apologists.

Whoa, before the Falcon nerf, it was my most used ship by far. Since then I haven't flown one, except maybe to light a cyno.

ACHURA 4 LYFE!

**Malcanis** · 2012-09-04

Originally Posted by Raketefrau

I dunno how long this has been going on, but I've seen a lot more of it lately.

DecCorp declares war against VictCorp.
VictCorp pilot scouts a system, sees it's clear, and jumps in
Neut suicide pilot tackles VictCorp ship
DecCorp jumps in and blows up VictCorp pilot, loots wreck, etc.

This hasn't happened to me, I'm not bittergraping here, just wondering what people think in general.

Part of me thinks "awesome," and part of me thinks "infraction." It's obviously gaming the wardec system.

The "offical" wardec system is so heavily tilted towards the defender it's hard to complain about this. When people can trivially evade wardecs with no loss or penalty, why complain about wardecs trivially getting suicide tackles?

**Malcanis** · 2012-09-04

Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller

Confirming Falcons are only used by no-talent ass-clowns and Caldari apologists.

It's a fair cop

**Kanloch** · 2012-09-04

Wouldn't a neut tackling in highsec get concorded anyway?

**Hilmar Keller** · 2012-09-04

Originally Posted by Kanloch

Wouldn't a neut tackling in highsec get concorded anyway?

Right, the complaint is that you can do it with a rookie ship and if it's a neut they won't be seen in local if you're being scouted.

**Barry Zuckerkorn** · 2012-09-04

It's just part of the game like scamming, awoxing, spying, and others. Also I really don't see a problem with it as they all use neutral scouts anyway and tackling just takes it one more step. If they really get upset by that they probably won't be playing eve for much longer anyway.

**Raketefrau** · 2012-09-04

Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller

Right, the complaint is that you can do it with a rookie ship and if it's a neut they won't be seen in local if you're being scouted.

Right, so it's essentially suicide ganking while using the wardec system. Scouting becomes useless.

Of course, as someone mentioned earlier, if you've got an active wardec you shouldn't be hauling with an in-corp toon in Empire. But that begs the question -- is using an out-of-corp hauler to avoid a wardec any different from using an out-of-corp tackler?

**Le'Blob** · 2012-09-04

I guess this would be the highsec equivalent of a cyno, but the mechanic certainly does feel off, even if it is only retarded freighter pilots dying to it. I would probably call it an exploit because it is a way of using the wardec system without actually having to suffer the negative consequences of a war target seeing you in local and just instantly logging off or w/e. If you had asked about neutral alts in low or null the answer would be alot different because there are already built-in mechanics for that, but it should be obvious that this is not intended, even if it is fairly cool.

**Centra** · 2012-09-04

It's not exploitive of any game mechanic, it's exploitive of players' stupidity. There are many mechanics that one can use to make dumb players suffer, one of my favorites is the fact that you have to be docked to apply to a corporation.

There are also a lot of things that take advantage of game mechanics that probably weren't ~intended~, and feel more exploitive than a neutral tackler. For example docking range cynos, being able to jump my Avatar in and out of a system before the invulnerability timer is up, logging off, etc.

The only way this would be an exploit is if they are recycling alts to bypass the security loss.

**Quesa** · 2012-09-04

With or without the new iterations on the wardec system, this could have been used and would likely have been thought of eventually. I don't see CCP changing this as it's just as allowable as suicide ganking.

**Le'Blob** · 2012-09-04

Well considering they are usually 1month old alts at best, it should be obvious they are recycling. 3hr hero ftw i guess

**Malcanis** · 2012-09-04

Originally Posted by Raketefrau

But that begs the question -- is using an out-of-corp hauler to avoid a wardec any different from using an out-of-corp tackler?

Precisely. People who hide behind NPC corps to avoid wardecs can scarcely complain about people hiding behind NPC corps to prosecute them.

**MintyRoadkill** · 2012-09-05

Well, CCP has made it clear that suicide ganking is only allowed on your main account so you can't escape standings penalties, etc.

So why is suicide assist-ganking totally cool?

I mean, i don't particularly care or think it's unfair, but it seems like it would fall under suicide ganking.

**Raketefrau** · 2012-09-05

Originally Posted by MintyRoadkill

Well, CCP has made it clear that suicide ganking is only allowed on your main account so you can't escape standings penalties, etc.

Do you have a source for this? Blog post, forum post or some such? I've never heard that.

**Hilmar Keller** · 2012-09-05

Originally Posted by MintyRoadkill

Well, CCP has made it clear that suicide ganking is only allowed on your main account so you can't escape standings penalties, etc.

So why is suicide assist-ganking totally cool?

I mean, i don't particularly care or think it's unfair, but it seems like it would fall under suicide ganking.

I'm about 99% sure you just pulled this out of your ass.

**Matos** · 2012-09-05

Originally Posted by Malcanis

Precisely. People who hide behind NPC corps to avoid wardecs can scarcely complain about people hiding behind NPC corps to prosecute them.

The question was about these who don't hide behind a NPC corp and then get tackled by people hiding behind an NPC Corp unless I got it wrong.

If they are not recycling I have no issue with this. If they are recycling its officially labeled as Exploit by CCP so the question is moot anyway

**StevieTopSiders** · 2012-09-05

Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller

I'm about 99% sure you just pulled this out of your ass.

Confirmed for ass-pulling.

CCP would never give you a reason to not sub another account.

**Don Peyote** · 2012-09-05

Originally Posted by MintyRoadkill

Well, CCP has made it clear that suicide ganking is only allowed on your main account so you can't escape standings penalties, etc.

So why is suicide assist-ganking totally cool?

I mean, i don't particularly care or think it's unfair, but it seems like it would fall under suicide ganking.

Ganking alts are fine - even on your main account. What you use the 3 character slots on your account for, as long as it's not botting, is fine with CCP as long as you pay them. It's when people recycle them by deleting the character once it falls below a security status threshold that CCP take exception, as that is gaming of the system and exploiting a workaround to ingame balance measures.

**Manfred Hideous** · 2012-09-05

Do they even monitor for recycling? It would seem like a lot of work for not such a large return.

**Hilmar Keller** · 2012-09-05

I'm sure it's a case-by-case thing, and it still begs the question 'why are people flying around expensive freighters/haulers in highsec while wardec'd?'

**Don Peyote** · 2012-09-05

Originally Posted by Manfred Hideous

Do they even monitor for recycling? It would seem like a lot of work for not such a large return.

It seems that way to me, too, but I'm sure Darius JOHNSON will get on the case some time soon

**Manfred Hideous** · 2012-09-05

Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller

I'm sure it's a case-by-case thing, and it still begs the question 'why are people flying around expensive freighters/haulers in highsec while wardec'd?'

We could ask someone that very question but his anger got him banned. LOL

I have run indy's during decs before but it's hard as hell to catch a prowler. Cloaked Wreaths can be useful, too if you don't haul expensive shit.

**Raketefrau** · 2012-09-05

Originally Posted by Manfred Hideous

We could ask someone that very question but his anger got him banned. LOL

I have run indy's during decs before but it's hard as hell to catch a prowler. Cloaked Wreaths can be useful, too if you don't haul expensive shit.

Confirming that the Prowler is the greatest spaceship.

[edit] Oh crap, I wasted my thousandth post on this shit.

**Malcanis** · 2012-09-05

Originally Posted by Matos

The question was about these who don't hide behind a NPC corp and then get tackled by people hiding behind an NPC Corp unless I got it wrong.

If they are not recycling I have no issue with this. If they are recycling its officially labeled as Exploit by CCP so the question is moot anyway

IIRC the sec hit for just tackling is pretty small?

**Quesa** · 2012-09-05

I thought they increased the sec hit for agressing in high-sec to a non-wardec'd target...??

**MintyRoadkill** · 2012-09-11

Originally Posted by Hilmar Keller

I'm about 99% sure you just pulled this out of your ass.

After poking around this falls under "things you read that one time and just roll with."

**Kanloch** · 2012-09-11

Try to avoid posting bullshit you've heard/read from your cousin's aunt's daughter's dog's masseuse's blog in SDF.

**Raketefrau** · 2012-09-11

Originally Posted by Kanloch

Try to avoid posting bullshit you've heard/read from your cousin's aunt's daughter's dog's masseuse's blog in SDF.

Oh yeah, that's the blog that posted about Ferris passing out at 31 Flavors last night.

I guess it's p serious.

**Don Peyote** · 2012-09-11

Originally Posted by Kanloch

Try to avoid posting bullshit you've heard/read from your cousin's aunt's daughter's dog's masseuse's blog in SDF.

Just in SDF, though, EOU thrives on those posts

**Tsubutai** · 2012-09-11

Originally Posted by Don Peyote

Ganking alts are fine - even on your main account. What you use the 3 character slots on your account for, as long as it's not botting, is fine with CCP as long as you pay them. It's when people recycle them by deleting the character once it falls below a security status threshold that CCP take exception, as that is gaming of the system and exploiting a workaround to ingame balance measures.

With the magic of PLEX for buddy invites, everyone can have as many free full 51 day accounts as they like. No need to ever take training time away from one of your proper characters or delete a character once it gets burned or its sec status falls too far.

**Don Peyote** · 2012-09-11

Originally Posted by Tsubutai

With the magic of PLEX for buddy invites, everyone can have as many free full 51 day accounts as they like. No need to ever take training time away from one of your proper characters or delete a character once it gets burned or its sec status falls too far.

This is what I did (briefly) and just shows how pointless recycling alts is

Scrublord · 2012-09-29

Originally Posted by Raketefrau

Right, so it's essentially suicide ganking while using the wardec system. Scouting becomes useless.

By neutral scouting you're abusing the exact same mechanic in question with neutral tackling AND neutral hauling. Turnabout is fair play.

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