[devblog] tech nerf

[Zagdul]

I like doing things as a group as well but who usually gets the ore in a mining op? Incursions is easy since all of the players (save ones with 100% tax) get an equal split of the money. I'm not saying groups need nerfing, just that it doesn't help grunts who have to compete for the anoms worth grinding. Missions would do this and as described would actually be easier to find than the current anoms. Making rings soloable for indy types would also be beneficial. The isk would generate more slowly but these methods both provide money to the person who actually does the grinding.

I guess my gripe is that the mechanic already exists and I think null could use ~somethin~ new. It's in null as well where there are systems for you to go to an agent and make isk off of. Granted, I know very few people who actually use the agents, but yeah... it's there. You're starting to go down the path of station re-writes where we can install agents in them as a part of sov. Believe me, I could write an essay of the need for pirate platforms to upgrade stations. Or, pirate stations in general. My goal right now is to suggest ways to get the flow of isk reversed =D

The sad thing is, the more 'rich' null sec alliances agree with this concept, the poorer ones hate the rich ones and don't want to believe that we'd consider this as a positive way of life for null sec.

When dominion was first released, before incursions, before the anom nerf and before so much was focused around truesec. Null sec was at it's prime. You couldn't to anywhere in null as it was so damn populated. Accounts were going up and it was a hayday in EVE.

The problem is, CCP most likely didn't account for the influx of faucets into the economy by providing enough sinks. Then they nuked PI and POS's off the market (another MASSIVE isk sink) so isk continued to get dumped into people's hands rater than money in > money out. This is the problem with the economy that people keep missing. Not the rich dudes with tech.

What needs to happen is a way for isk to flow into empire from null, then empire covets the majority of the isk sinks. One thing would/could be is additional taxes on market orders in high sec.

Meh... too many ideas, none will be implemented.

[luksajlo]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Zagdul again.

[Cedarbridge]

I like doing things as a group as well but who usually gets the ore in a mining op?

And here I thought my corp just sending everyone home with what they mined themselves was the normal practice.

[Zagdul]

And here I thought my corp just sending everyone home with what they mined themselves was the normal practice.

Here lies another issue... Trying to monitor who mined what.


You'd think, after 10 years there would be some kind of pretty interface that monitored this in game by now.

[Raketefrau]

Here lies another issue... Trying to monitor who mined what.


You'd think, after 10 years there would be some kind of pretty interface that monitored this in game by now.

You must be thinking of some other game developer.

[Hilmar Keller]

Here lies another issue... Trying to monitor who mined what.


You'd think, after 10 years there would be some kind of pretty interface that monitored this in game by now.

While it is possible with a small corp to give your mining dudes a corp locker (into which they drop their ore in the Orca) for any group larger than five or six it's basically impossible. I remember getting involved in a mining corp early on and I don't remember seeing a single ISK come back my way from our mining ops.

Of course if you did try to implement a system there would be a group of highsec dudes whining about it because they are literally shit hitlers running mining corps like Gulags and taking all the profits for themselves.

[Prodnovick]

Here lies another issue... Trying to monitor who mined what.


You'd think, after 10 years there would be some kind of pretty interface that monitored this in game by now.

There are spreadsheets publicly available but with the new 64 bit system they could implement a tag on ore that says who mined it. The easiest way right now is probably to just devide the haul based on the time everyone spent.

[Hilmar Keller]

There are spreadsheets publicly available but with the new 64 bit system they could implement a tag on ore that says who mined it. The easiest way right now is probably to just devide the haul based on the time everyone spent.

That's always an iffy prospect: It doesn't reward people who max their skills, use implants, or are more vigilant in ending miner cycles as the rocks pop. PVP ops are widespread because the act of shooting is the reward even if there's a bunch of dudes in fleet who are generally fucking up. In mining ops, the dudes who are fucking up affect the rewards and there's no way of rewarding them less.

This, I think, is way overdue for a mechanic.

[Mellow Yellow]

Was in a corp with a large, effective indy wing. IIRC their method was:

1) Put your name on your jet cans
2) Hauling Rorq notes what's in the cans.
3) Corp does its thing
4) Corp pays out on a schedule

You could also haul your own shit (duh) or have the rorq give you your ore back at station, but I think most people just did the corp thing, as it payed about as well as compressing and moving your stuff to market yourself.

[Raketefrau]

Was in a corp with a large, effective indy wing. IIRC their method was:

1) Put your name on your jet cans
2) Hauling Rorq notes what's in the cans.
3) Corp does its thing
4) Corp pays out on a schedule

You could also haul your own shit (duh) or have the rorq give you your ore back at station, but I think most people just did the corp thing, as it payed about as well as compressing and moving your stuff to market yourself.

We did this a lot. There's also MiningBuddy:

http://miningbuddy.whistle-britches.com/

[Grath]

Back when we did it, you knew the yield on your ship, and we just timed the mining on things so we knew how much each person had done, so it was more a time clock thing

[ZombyDog]

Back when we did it, you knew the yield on your ship, and we just timed the mining on things so we knew how much each person had done, so it was more a time clock thing

That's pretty much how we ( as in Goonfleet ) did it back in the bad old days in Syndicate ( 2005-2006 ). We had an IGB app that we'd punch in our ship type, number of mining drones and all that jazz, clock in when we started, clock out when we finished ( including folks on hauling duty ), at the end of the session the corp refiner would do his thing and the app would spit out everyone's share based on their contribution as well as the portion for corp tax. We may have been clueless newbies but hell we were well organised even then.

[Zagdul]

While it is possible with a small corp to give your mining dudes a corp locker (into which they drop their ore in the Orca) for any group larger than five or six it's basically impossible. I remember getting involved in a mining corp early on and I don't remember seeing a single ISK come back my way from our mining ops.

Of course if you did try to implement a system there would be a group of highsec dudes whining about it because they are literally shit hitlers running mining corps like Gulags and taking all the profits for themselves.

The guys in my corp we setup a personal POS for them and hook them up with an X-L ship array. They drop their minerals into a 'director only' tab. When it fills up, they ping one of my corp directors to come scoop it and we pay based on the amount mined. They keep track of what they mined and we take a cut for hauling, nuking and then converting it into sell-able products. We get cheap minerals, miners get to be efficient.

Many of my miners in corp walk away with a few bil a week.

[Zagdul]

Back when we did it, you knew the yield on your ship, and we just timed the mining on things so we knew how much each person had done, so it was more a time clock thing

We thought about doing this, but with neuts coming in and out of local, it's difficult to keep track of this.

We gotta ping punktaris to put in a awesome Organized Mineral Net Output Monitor™. Or, Omnom for short.

[madp0k]

Can anyone let me know the buys and sells of Crystalline Carbonide in Jita please? (I know I know but im back at work after 3 weeks off)

[Serra]

Can anyone let me know the buys and sells of Crystalline Carbonide in Jita please? (I know I know but im back at work after 3 weeks off)

just use eve-central or any other market data site.

Anyway: sell: 194.77, buy: 181.40

[madp0k]

cheers dude, are they updated regulary?

[Mira Z]

just use eve-central or any other market data site.

Anyway: sell: 194.77, buy: 181.40

ALL HAIL THE COBALT KING

[Hilmar Keller]

COBALT R'LYEH WGAH'NAGL FHTAGN

[madp0k]

CC is selling so quickly off sell orders now, each time I put a 5 mil chunk up it goes with in 30 mins to an hour, have around 30 left so will wait to see if their is a patch panic 2moro and then dump. Doesn't seem to hold over 200 for long enough for buy orders to adjust before someone panics and dumps a lump in sells which everyone follows. I'll be glad when im out tbh

[Hilmar Keller]

As I said earlier, it's clear that Cobalt is entering the market too quickly (it's been steadily dropping for days now) while nobody can keep up with the demand for CC. Speculators have already dive-bombed Gallente components, which is great because most of them require only a trivial quantity of CC so the profit margins are hilariously good.

[Serra]

cheers dude, are they updated regulary?

With eve central just check "reported time" on the right. For example "08-06 14:07:19", that is the time someones cache saw that order.

[NOMAHN]

While it is possible with a small corp to give your mining dudes a corp locker (into which they drop their ore in the Orca) for any group larger than five or six it's basically impossible. I remember getting involved in a mining corp early on and I don't remember seeing a single ISK come back my way from our mining ops.

Of course if you did try to implement a system there would be a group of highsec dudes whining about it because they are literally shit hitlers running mining corps like Gulags and taking all the profits for themselves.

I think this is why a lot of Indy guys eventually say fuck it and end up with 4 or five accounts,to run their own mining fleets. This is good for CCP wallet so I don't expect a change.

[Prodnovick]

I think this is why a lot of Indy guys eventually say fuck it and end up with 4 or five accounts,to run their own mining fleets. This is good for CCP wallet so I don't expect a change.

No, that is because mining scales really well with multiple accounts. If you make 500 mil on top of your plex mining with one account, you'll make 2,5 bil with 5 accounts.

[Deira]

Pre dominion in Syndicate my corp made squillions out of Cadmium towers and alchemy. All depends on where the price point settles.

My corp did exactly the same around the exact same time. Between cadmium, Neodiem and halfnium we made enough to replace practicaly everything that got lost including dreads and carriers. Not bad for 50 dudes with some alts and spare time.

It all depends on how much there is of something, and where it is located. I recall there was actual fighting in Cobald Edge at one point because it has a REDCULUSFUCKMEGATON of cadmium moons.


Hell i sat in a system where SOT and PL held dyspro and prom moons, but still i prolly made more with the moons in that system then they did with that one moon.

Wusti is totaly right, whatever they do. they should make the prices be average of the rest of the shit. Instead of having just one or 2 moons that are actualy worthwile to mine (neo and tech atm i think isnt it?)

[Hilmar Keller]

...and the only reason Neo is competitive with Tech is because you need Neo Mercurite to react with Platinum Technite to make Nanotransistors.

Fucking CCP.

[Raketefrau]

Hopefully pilots actually ice mining will lower fuel costs enough to make more moons profitable.

[Manfred Hideous]

Mining will still be mining, no matter if the ships are harder to kill. They'll be more expensive as well.

The barge changes are a good thing IMO but I doubt they have much impact long term.

[Raketefrau]

Mining will still be mining, no matter if the ships are harder to kill. They'll be more expensive as well.

The barge changes are a good thing IMO but I doubt they have much impact long term.

IMHO it's just a question of whether the changes will stop the suicide killing of empire miners or not. Expensive barges are just upfront purchases, if the "interdiction" stops people will get by forever on a single ship, the cost is amortized over however long the empire miner can be assed to log in and keep mining. Plus their current ships will be automagically upgraded, it's not like they have to buy or build new exhumers.

Never underestimate the ability of miners to overcome boredom.

[Manfred Hideous]

The changes will certainly make it harder to kill them but a little dedication goes a long way YOu'll see them die. I'm not even sure how often any particular miner is ganked like that. I've been hit a single time in four years but I don't mine all day, either.

[islador]

We thought about doing this, but with neuts coming in and out of local, it's difficult to keep track of this.

We gotta ping punktaris to put in a awesome Organized Mineral Net Output Monitor™. Or, Omnom for short.

I take it no one noticed the loot logs? Loot logs provide a lovely TSV of all loot picked up by people in fleet. You save the log, parse it with a script, label each hauler, each rorq, then you decide a pay out scheme. In FELON we use 10% of all rock for the rorq (since he adds a 50% bonus to the whole fleet between yield and cycle bonus) and 10% of rock hauled for the haulers. Miners get their share of the remaining isk earned (Math breakdown below with small numbers). This will also scale with as many people as you like because the logs watch all. The logs themselves are fairly error resistant, and any inconsistencies will be fairly obvious since theres no reason one hulk would pull vastly more then the average of the rest of the hulks. Should that happen, i'm sure it can be explained by those on hand during the op, say he swapped to a hauler, or what have you. For large operations where a trusted member is not present, just have everyone submit a log. This can be done via a webpage or what have you.

e.g. 100 isk mined, 90isk left after rorq, two haulers, each moved 50% of the rock, 80 isk left after their cut, 4 miners, one mined 40 isk worth, one mined 20 isk worth, one mined 30 and one mined 10 isk worth, their pay outs are: 32 isk, 16, 24 isk and 8 isk. The miners don't mind sharing because without the rorq and haulers they would've only mined 20, 10, 15 and 10 isk worth of rock respectively.

[islador]

Sorry to double post, but we're now dealing with two separate discussions.

Its because CCP keeps nerfing pilot income. They're literally retarded when it comes to this. Go back a couple pages in this thread and read my wall o'text on fixes for nullsec.

They (CCP) need to implement a bottom up way for alliances to make isk in small portions of space and make it logistically cumbersome to hold more space. To do this, you need to make spreading out your numbers less valuable and concentrating them into smaller portions of space worth it.

1. Make the military index tie into the value of bounty rewards in a system.
2. Over 'farming' a system causes it's security level to go up (less value) which forces you to 'rotate your crops'.
3. Allow alliances to tax the ratting of a system.
4. AFTER you've done this, re-factor Tech 2 manufacturing so that each racial T2 ship requires a racial reaction including an R64+R32 reaction (re-distribute moons, gurista space would be like... prom + tech, amarr dys + merc). When this is done, reduce the amount necessary to produce T2 or increase the amount harvested from moons.


Right now in null sec, you are encouraged to hold more space. This is because of the fact that the value isn't the space itself. It's the moon income. With more space and being spread out, as an alliance I can make more isk off more available moons. This is the problem. Not Technitium and the retards demanding it's nerf don't understand how manufacturing works. It's showing with the numbers people are showing here in this thread. See, we crashed the market on tech just enough so that it's still the most valuable moon poop in the game, but just enough to make the effort in running 5? cobalt reactions not worth it.

See, tech didn't get nerfed.

Not to mention, CCP did a second pants on head retarded thing by introducing these new heavily tanked barges. This means there will be an influx of minerals on the market.

More minerals + cheaper T2 products = cheaper ships = buff to who ever holds the most valuable resource in the game.


In the end, nothing changes.

The only thing this accomplished was that we now have a soft cap on how moon minerals work and less of a sandbox as CCP introduced a game mechanic that is designed to manipulate prices through game design. Not player driven content.

I did read your wall of text, and I liked many of the ideas in it. You're right in that the incentive is to hold more space right now instead of to concentrate your holdings. In another post in this thread (I don't remember where, page 15 I think) you mentioned that the hay day of nullsec was right after dominion when the place was packed and isk was everywhere. You're definitely right about that, I remember and miss those days.

The driver for that was the massive volumes of isk to be made for the rank and file members of each and every alliance. CCP needs to return that level of individual isk to nullsec. If they return that level of isk to nullsec and reduce the sov grind (I don't care how, just make it so i don't need 200 people or a super fleet worth the same amount) then nullsec will flourish once again.

In thinking through this response I feel that my previous statement about reducing SRPs by altering t2 production to be less profitable would have an adverse effect on nullsec. It would invariably mean less people in null. This is a situation that you can fix the immediately problems with by either reducing the nullsec population or increasing it. Increasing it is better for the long run, but also more complicated.

[Iseeyouseemeseeyou]

So, who remembers back in 2010 when CCP announced system upgrades and all that fine stuff; then went on about how each system would sustain ~50 players ratting/plexing/etc. at a time?

[Phey Onat]

heh

[Zagdul]

I take it no one noticed the loot logs? Loot logs provide a lovely TSV of all loot picked up by people in fleet. You save the log, parse it with a script, label each hauler, each rorq, then you decide a pay out scheme. In FELON we use 10% of all rock for the rorq (since he adds a 50% bonus to the whole fleet between yield and cycle bonus) and 10% of rock hauled for the haulers. Miners get their share of the remaining isk earned (Math breakdown below with small numbers). This will also scale with as many people as you like because the logs watch all. The logs themselves are fairly error resistant, and any inconsistencies will be fairly obvious since theres no reason one hulk would pull vastly more then the average of the rest of the hulks. Should that happen, i'm sure it can be explained by those on hand during the op, say he swapped to a hauler, or what have you. For large operations where a trusted member is not present, just have everyone submit a log. This can be done via a webpage or what have you.

e.g. 100 isk mined, 90isk left after rorq, two haulers, each moved 50% of the rock, 80 isk left after their cut, 4 miners, one mined 40 isk worth, one mined 20 isk worth, one mined 30 and one mined 10 isk worth, their pay outs are: 32 isk, 16, 24 isk and 8 isk. The miners don't mind sharing because without the rorq and haulers they would've only mined 20, 10, 15 and 10 isk worth of rock respectively.

This requires effort. I never understood why, after 10 years and the notion that this is a group rewarded game, that they haven't introduce to encourage that style with mechanics and interfaces that support it.

Sorry to double post, but we're now dealing with two separate discussions.



I did read your wall of text, and I liked many of the ideas in it. You're right in that the incentive is to hold more space right now instead of to concentrate your holdings. In another post in this thread (I don't remember where, page 15 I think) you mentioned that the hay day of nullsec was right after dominion when the place was packed and isk was everywhere. You're definitely right about that, I remember and miss those days.

The driver for that was the massive volumes of isk to be made for the rank and file members of each and every alliance. CCP needs to return that level of individual isk to nullsec. If they return that level of isk to nullsec and reduce the sov grind (I don't care how, just make it so i don't need 200 people or a super fleet worth the same amount) then nullsec will flourish once again.

In thinking through this response I feel that my previous statement about reducing SRPs by altering t2 production to be less profitable would have an adverse effect on nullsec. It would invariably mean less people in null. This is a situation that you can fix the immediately problems with by either reducing the nullsec population or increasing it. Increasing it is better for the long run, but also more complicated.

They can't re-introduce it until they have sinks to counter balance the increased faucets a boost to bounty would cause. I'm a betting man and I'd put everything I have in EVE on the fact that they nerfed anoms and security of systems because they didn't properly account for the amount of isk that would flow into the economy. Dominion caused the greatest inflation in EVE to date because of the lack in sinks. Tyrannis and Incursions only compounded the issues Dominion brought in due to the removal of PI and introduction of more high sec 'safe' isk making.

The bottom line is that everything they introduce is very short sighted. They have ZERO long term goals when developing EVE. The whole game is on an 18 month cycle and you feel it after playing it for a year.

This is the biggest problem with the game. A 10 year old game should not be in the condition EVE is in. They are at a point where new massive features should be being introduced. Not still attempting to decide how exactly they would like blasters to function in combat.

CCP as an entire company lack direction and focus. There are only two things keeping this game going right now is it's community, lack of a competent competition. Word of mouth is what keeps new people playing. There was an interview during the ATX about DUST and when (Zastrow?) asked how many people are playing the Beta, the guy being interviewed dodged answering it pretty quickly. The point is... and I am not trying to sound all doom n' gloom about this, however EVE is a fun game when you have the people who want to play it. With the way Greyscale is talking (new turrets in lowsec/deathrays etc etc) and how little by little they remove the sandbox from EVE, this game will begin to become less fun for the community and the community will eventually bail out.

For the first time in EVE's history, it's having a decline in subscriptions. This game, up until last year was the ONLY (AAA titled) MMO that had a in increase in subscriptions each year outside of WoW. Every other MMO has lasted a year and after the hype, they abandon it. I personally don't see EVE lasting much longer in it's current state unless CCP does some long term goals (not planning) to decide what their focus should be. EVE needs to have a 'golden rules' where you just don't break them from a development standpoint and they need to stick with it.

I.E.: Game tools or mechanics should not be designed to limit or police players, only to provide consequences.

for example: The Alchemy change should not have gone through. It's a way for a game mechanic to control the market instead of us being the deciding factor. Instead, they should have had a long term goal and focus for FIXING what is broken, Tech 2 manufacturing.

Now the point of making Tech 2 manufacturing less profitable for Alliances is that after making the space taxable by the alliance, you have a new source of income. This needs to be countered and that is done by making the moons less valuable.

But this is thinking ahead...

[jimmychrist]

This requires effort. I never understood why, after 10 years and the notion that this is a group rewarded game, that they haven't introduce to encourage that style with mechanics and interfaces that support it.

I.E.: Game tools or mechanics should not be designed to limit or police players, only to provide consequences.

I'm not exactly disagreeing with your main thesis, but you're directly contradicting yourself. Being able to skim off the top is something that surely belongs in eve online; a game for assholes.

Also, limits are not always bad. In fact, an abundance of choice is often counter-productive to enjoyment.

Anyway, is there hard data that confirms the subscriptions declining?

[Slycat]

Risk.
Reward.

A null sec mining op that _requires_ at least 30+ players to work. Maybe its got p.hardcore rats in there or something that need killed?

It would be prone to being disrupted by roamers so the rewards should be high.

Group content, pvp target, making mining worthwhile.

Even better, give the mining group an incentive to fight smaller roaming gangs. Timed door to the mining plex or some mechanism that encourages miners to 'just hold off the attackers to complete this last cycle'. Or a mini tiny RF cycle on the door. So PVP crew fight roaming gang at the door. If they win, all good, if they loose roaming gang gets all the isk value of the last mining cycle (but miners can just warp out).

[Hilmar Keller]

Risk.
Reward.

A null sec mining op that _requires_ at least 30+ players to work. Maybe its got p.hardcore rats in there or something that need killed?

It would be prone to being disrupted by roamers so the rewards should be high.

Group content, pvp target, making mining worthwhile.

Even better, give the mining group an incentive to fight smaller roaming gangs. Timed door to the mining plex or some mechanism that encourages miners to 'just hold off the attackers to complete this last cycle'. Or a mini tiny RF cycle on the door. So PVP crew fight roaming gang at the door. If they win, all good, if they loose roaming gang gets all the isk value of the last mining cycle (but miners can just warp out).

Rofl, what mining gang is going to put up a fight against a roaming gang? And don't say 'drones' because no.

[Slycat]

Rofl, what mining gang is going to put up a fight against a roaming gang? And don't say 'drones' because no.

The ones that are earning enough through mining to pay the pvpers to fly combat air patrol (and kill the RAT spawns).

Its scalable risk and reward.

Mine a normal site (and dockup when any gangs reported on intel) 100mil isk/hr for all miners
Mine a lock in pvp-target-whatever-site earn 250m isk per hour (for all miners AND combat pilots)

Ideally setup so if you start one of the pvp-target type sites if you bail your reward is cut some amount and the attackers scoop some isk

[Manfred Hideous]

Rofl, what mining gang is going to put up a fight against a roaming gang? And don't say 'drones' because no.

We used to be a credible threat to roamers when we mined (pre iHubs). When the alliance had an op, the miners had a measure of protection in the form of scouts and ten+ PVP players. We could usually handle the off solo to small gangs and we'd be able to get safe courtesy of the scouts if something to big to handle came along.

None of the miners got to keep the ore, though. It was for our SRP.

I still think it's shortsighted of CCP to try to push group isk generation so exclusively. The fact is scrubs (especially in shit space) are left in poverty because they can't afford to replace ships lost. If i could find a way to generate the isk for a BC in an hour or so, I'd be able to roam twice as much and risk my ships far more often in leeroy adventures.

[Mental Maverick]

They can't re-introduce it until they have sinks to counter balance the increased faucets a boost to bounty would cause. I'm a betting man and I'd put everything I have in EVE on the fact that they nerfed anoms and security of systems because they didn't properly account for the amount of isk that would flow into the economy. Dominion caused the greatest inflation in EVE to date because of the lack in sinks. Tyrannis and Incursions only compounded the issues Dominion brought in due to the removal of PI and introduction of more high sec 'safe' isk making.

I've never lived in 0.0, and I extremely seldom do any kind of pve for isk, I'm a market pewing kinda guy, so I might just be horribly ignorant posting this. But, a potential solution to that problem could be to tweak loot drops instead of just increasing the bounties. I'm in FW and have been for quite a while and following the changes made in the inferno patch it's become VERY profitable to farm offensive plexes and turn the LP earned in for items you sell on the market. Which means the isk you make doesn't come from raw isk injected into the game but rather from other players buying your stuff. This also means that the more industrious players that keep an eye on the market has a potential to make more turning in LP for the most profitable items as opposed to the lazy player who just cashes in for Navy Domis and sell straight to buy orders. Now, when it comes to 0.0 the loot drops doesn't require LP to be turned in but the basics are the same, income would be generated mostly by isk coming from other players buying the loot instead of injected fresh into the game via bounties.

In FW there are a few items that are unique to each factions LP store, if something similar was done to anoms, where some items only drop in a specific anom and if that type of anom was unique to a specific region, it would mean that you get a more dynamic situation where some anoms dropping a certain type of modules with a higher demand on them would then give a higher reward. But if people were to start running nothing but those anoms the market might get saturated and the rewards would drop. In an ideal situation this would mean that the balance would swing and anoms that have been abandoned for the more profitable ones might become profitable again because the supply on those modules have gone down. So again, it would reward the more industrious players running the "right" anoms letting them earn more isk than the lazy player running the same anoms over and over. It might also be a conflict driver where you would see the "value" of different regions going up and down depending on how hard that regions anoms are being farmed not unlike how the FW LP store items are going up and down depending on farming and LP dumps.

PS. Like I said, I might just be horribly ignorant and naive in thinking it would work this way so please correct me if I'm just being retarded

[Manfred Hideous]

I've never lived in 0.0, and I extremely seldom do any kind of pve for isk, I'm a market pewing kinda guy, so I might just be horribly ignorant posting this. But, a potential solution to that problem could be to tweak loot drops instead of just increasing the bounties. I'm in FW and have been for quite a while and following the changes made in the inferno patch it's become VERY profitable to farm offensive plexes and turn the LP earned in for items you sell on the market. Which means the isk you make doesn't come from raw isk injected into the game but rather from other players buying your stuff. This also means that the more industrious players that keep an eye on the market has a potential to make more turning in LP for the most profitable items as opposed to the lazy player who just cashes in for Navy Domis and sell straight to buy orders. Now, when it comes to 0.0 the loot drops doesn't require LP to be turned in but the basics are the same, income would be generated mostly by isk coming from other players buying the loot instead of injected fresh into the game via bounties.

In FW there are a few items that are unique to each factions LP store, if something similar was done to anoms, where some items only drop in a specific anom and if that type of anom was unique to a specific region, it would mean that you get a more dynamic situation where some anoms dropping a certain type of modules with a higher demand on them would then give a higher reward. But if people were to start running nothing but those anoms the market might get saturated and the rewards would drop. In an ideal situation this would mean that the balance would swing and anoms that have been abandoned for the more profitable ones might become profitable again because the supply on those modules have gone down. So again, it would reward the more industrious players running the "right" anoms letting them earn more isk than the lazy player running the same anoms over and over. It might also be a conflict driver where you would see the "value" of different regions going up and down depending on how hard that regions anoms are being farmed not unlike how the FW LP store items are going up and down depending on farming and LP dumps.

PS. Like I said, I might just be horribly ignorant and naive in thinking it would work this way so please correct me if I'm just being retarded

That's actually not a bad idea. Every once in a while I get a TS. Not often, maybe once in 200 or more rats and only half of these TS rats drop anything of note. If they always dropped something something TS (besides ammo) it'd be great. an LP store item for TS tags would also make the tags have some value.

I think DED ought to be brought into null with missions (yeah there I go again), regional rat tag offers, and an LP store unique to each reason that maybe offers "confiscated" pirate faction stuff or even DED specific loot the way other LP stores offer their own faction items. Basically make it so Concord is the go to guy for isk (it already is to an extent) in Null. It's even justifiable in lore since Concord would naturally want to tame the lawless regions.

[Manfred Hideous]

Patch notes:

http://community.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp

I won't repost because it's full of images this time.

can someone check something for me? There's some new filtering dropdown for the markets. Is region still the biggest scope or can you see other regions now like you can with contracts?

Improved Pithi A, B, C-Type Small Shield Transporters. Increased shield transported amount, reduced capacitor usage and extended range.

Nice

[Mental Maverick]

That's actually not a bad idea. Every once in a while I get a TS. Not often, maybe once in 200 or more rats and only half of these TS rats drop anything of note. If they always dropped something something TS (besides ammo) it'd be great. an LP store item for TS tags would also make the tags have some value.

I think DED ought to be brought into null with missions (yeah there I go again), regional rat tag offers, and an LP store unique to each reason that maybe offers "confiscated" pirate faction stuff or even DED specific loot the way other LP stores offer their own faction items. Basically make it so Concord is the go to guy for isk (it already is to an extent) in Null. It's even justifiable in lore since Concord would naturally want to tame the lawless regions.

Not a huge fan of the missions or npc buy orders for tags tbh, i'd rather make the tags be a requisite in the LP store offers making them a usefull commodity with the potential of being traded between players.

But overall I like the idea, maybe something like a DED station upgrade that would award some :ballanced: amount of LP for killing belt rats in the system/constellation with the upgrade instead of providing missions. The upgrade would also provide the LP store where you get the LP store offers as a reward for "taming" that lawless space as you put it, making tags and what not usefull instead of just being fluff sold to npc buy orders.

The most obvious LP store offers would probably be "confiscated" pirate faction ammo since those are pretty fucking useless atm from a cost/effectiveness pov but there is certainly a lot of possibilities for other offers aswell.

[Fix Lag]

Jesus christ everyone's going to be mining in a skiff

[Zagdul]

I'm not exactly disagreeing with your main thesis, but you're directly contradicting yourself. Being able to skim off the top is something that surely belongs in eve online; a game for assholes.

Also, limits are not always bad. In fact, an abundance of choice is often counter-productive to enjoyment.

Anyway, is there hard data that confirms the subscriptions declining?

I'm having a hard time putting into words what I mean for the policing of players. I can simply use examples:

Bad: Faster Concord Response/Alchemy/ (anything that controls a price to police things)

However, an in-game interface that counts minerals to make people's quality of life better are non-issues.

Data: http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png

PCU: http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/PCUShard.png

Interesting things to note, EVE is literally the ONLY game to have a steady increase in subs (outside second life). Quantum Rise and Dominion showed it's biggest spike. If you watch, Dominion was the last expansion that showed a steady increase of subs. After that the game has leveled off or declined where after Tyrannis is by far the worst expansion.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/659002/Subs-2.png

[Manfred Hideous]

Jesus christ everyone's going to be mining in a skiff

Or even the tanky little proc.

I do hope so. I'm going to be inventing my first skiff BPCs in a few days. Just have to get a ship interface now.

[Zagdul]

I've never lived in 0.0, and I extremely seldom do any kind of pve for isk, I'm a market pewing kinda guy, so I might just be horribly ignorant posting this. But, a potential solution to that problem could be to tweak loot drops instead of just increasing the bounties. I'm in FW and have been for quite a while and following the changes made in the inferno patch it's become VERY profitable to farm offensive plexes and turn the LP earned in for items you sell on the market. Which means the isk you make doesn't come from raw isk injected into the game but rather from other players buying your stuff. This also means that the more industrious players that keep an eye on the market has a potential to make more turning in LP for the most profitable items as opposed to the lazy player who just cashes in for Navy Domis and sell straight to buy orders. Now, when it comes to 0.0 the loot drops doesn't require LP to be turned in but the basics are the same, income would be generated mostly by isk coming from other players buying the loot instead of injected fresh into the game via bounties.

In FW there are a few items that are unique to each factions LP store, if something similar was done to anoms, where some items only drop in a specific anom and if that type of anom was unique to a specific region, it would mean that you get a more dynamic situation where some anoms dropping a certain type of modules with a higher demand on them would then give a higher reward. But if people were to start running nothing but those anoms the market might get saturated and the rewards would drop. In an ideal situation this would mean that the balance would swing and anoms that have been abandoned for the more profitable ones might become profitable again because the supply on those modules have gone down. So again, it would reward the more industrious players running the "right" anoms letting them earn more isk than the lazy player running the same anoms over and over. It might also be a conflict driver where you would see the "value" of different regions going up and down depending on how hard that regions anoms are being farmed not unlike how the FW LP store items are going up and down depending on farming and LP dumps.

PS. Like I said, I might just be horribly ignorant and naive in thinking it would work this way so please correct me if I'm just being retarded

I could get on board with this. Something along the lines of Meta 4 never drop in high sec or something. Quality and quantity of loot can be tied to security status of a system.

[Hilmar Keller]

Mackinaws are hilarious now: Not only are they as effective at mining ores as they are ice (so you don't have to own both a Hulk and a Mack if you want to switch up), but 35k m3 ore hold means, with Exhumers 5 and no boosts, you can sit on a rock for 50 minutes before filling up. And with ~22k EHP, nothing's likely to fuck with you unless you're wardecked.

[Raketefrau]

Mackinaws are hilarious now: Not only are they as effective at mining ores as they are ice (so you don't have to own both a Hulk and a Mack if you want to switch up), but 35k m3 ore hold means, with Exhumers 5 and no boosts, you can sit on a rock for 50 minutes before filling up. And with ~22k EHP, nothing's likely to fuck with you unless you're wardecked.

I know what I'll be doing tonight while I sleep.