That's why I'll keep on proposing the addition of more space, with the mechanics we want. Leave nullsec with local to the nullbears, add space suited for small gangs and cloaky gameplay.
That's why I'll keep on proposing the addition of more space, with the mechanics we want. Leave nullsec with local to the nullbears, add space suited for small gangs and cloaky gameplay.
"Every rifter counts friend" - VR
1. Small gang PvP - The whole point here as someone mentioned earlier is Fog of War. There's literally none today. With a small cadre of NPC alt cloaky scouts positioned at some crossroads system no gang can stay off intel. Why is this stupid? Because if you own 50 systems and live in 1, why the hell should you be easily able to "monitor" an entire region and formup a giant response fleet (or hurrr bombers)? Which leads me to problem two...
2. Giant regional empires - This ability to lock down entire swaths of space without people is the entire issue. No local in my opinion would immediately solve the "hurr why can't small alliances get into sov space". Local + scout alts + JBs = stomp the shit out of anyone at will. I personally think if you eliminate local massive droves of smaller alliances would filter into null, and that would be better for everyone. Would it be a debuff to giant afk space empires? Yes...and everyone gives no fucks.
Everyone can go on and on about how jews are the lifeblood of null or some ridiculous bullshit, but there are plenty of PvP focused groups who would love to jump into null, but you can't stay off the radar enough for that to be worthwhile.
Finally, nobody gives a fuck about ganking ratters, please stop talking about it(from both sides). People who talk about small gang PvP mean that. Gang vs. Gang. Ganking is boring as shit.
Bots inflate the number ofcourse, but I'd rather not get into the discussion of how many of the Tengus spread across Deklein are bots.
Even on grid he has to land within point range. So killing npcs 50k away from the warpin would already mean your pretty safe.
Stealthbombers would fuck up ratters for good though. (No uncloaking delay)
Double the warping speed of inties?
Some of our more educated members have trouble separating things and then accuse me of ad hominem attacks.
The problem of locals overwhelming power is what i'm taking issue with. That is completely separate from every other issue. Anything else you connect to it is simply some thing that you feel justifies it, but, your personal beliefs aren't what we're talking about here, so when i say:
And I get a comment likeOk all you had to do was say you're unable to separate the two different aspects of an argument, we got it, you think the all seeing eye of local is fine
Nobody is denying any of your claims, but the issue of the value of 0.0 is in no way related to the fact that Local chat in its current form is admitted to be over powered by anybody thats actually thinking in terms of ballance, and that this issue is separate from every other thing that anybody wants to add onto the argument. You can relate flying pink elephants to it if you want to but the nobody is denying any of the other points that any of you are bringing up but they're just not fucking related.is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it
Local chat gives too much for no effort, you cannot justify that by the value of what you're doing, thats not balance, thats just fucking stupid.
If you think nullsec makes too little, thats another issue
If you think high sec makes too much, thats another issue
If you think people are too risk averse, thats another issue
The issue, is that without ever pushing a button, and by just stretching one window up your screen the game is made nearly 100% safe for anybody who can stare at it.
Also one of you thinks he's way smarter than he is but you're actually a fucking retard.
So if we assume that they ratted for 4 hours on average, and that your number of 5 ratters dying is correct, then that's almost a 3.5% deathrate. I'm not convinced it's just 5, though, I'm seeing well over 20 player ship kills even before I get to VFK for the last 24 hours. vOv
Yea, or like, 1 titan ratting for 1 hour can kill about 5k rats
EDIT: I don't know if you have ratting titans in the CFC it may be against the rules but its definitely the way to do it. one titan can kill 30k rats in 24 hours with not much effort at all, when people like Dancul or Camar get down though, it gets brutal.
The only way you do that is by doing some game changing, irritate some people things like remove local, make sov based on those who live and are active in a system. The way things are now has gotten silly to the point of stupidity. People huddle in one tiny piece of a region, while 80% of the systems are unpopulated. The entire structure based concept to sov is dumb, and just needs to go away. POS based, I-Hub and Station based, blah blah...all the same dumb idea done differently.
And 4 hours on avarage seems a bit much, doesn't it? I'm sure some people can do it for long stretches, but I find it hard to imagine the avarage player puts that much time into ratting in one go. Bots raise the avarage a lot, but I still think it's closer to 3 or 2 hours. But that's pure speculation, and could be off by a huge margin.
In either case, it's a lot more NPC kills than most nullsec regions, and only a few regions like Fountain seem to be as active.
Edit: If we assume 4 hours as an avarage though, and a 3.5% chance you'll die in that timespan, that means you'll be able to rat for an avarage of 120 hours between each time you die. If you make a modest 80M per hour that's just short of 10b isk between each time you die, meaning the occasional loss of your 1b isk Tengu is only 10% of your profits. If you use a drake and make half that amount of isk, the losses will only be about 1% of your total profits. And most of the dead ratters fly fairly inexpensive ships, mostly Drakes, so in general nullsec PvE is very much a low-risk activity.
Hisec should be a place where you can make small amounts of isk in relative safety. By contrast, nullsec should be much more profitable but also very dangerous. And right now it's not much more profitable, but it's also not very dangerous.
Local as a intel tool is to powerfull. But people were claiming that removing it would suddenly increase small gang targets in ratters. Which is just not true.
How to fix cynos in a few easy steps:
Step 1 raise the fitting requirements of all cynos by a huge margin, CPU through the roof.
Step 2, grant a bonus to Combat Recons and Electronic Attack Frigates to fitting said over hyped CPU mods, much like the cloak works on Recons, at lvl 5 you shouldn't even notice the cyno is there.
Step 3 remove the fast cyno ability from Covert Recons and give it to EAF's and Combat Recons.
Step 4 remove the ability of cover ops to light covert cynos, this is now strictly the realm of Covert Recons.
That doesn't seem like much of a change there Grath.
Oh really? No dirt cheap cyno kessies, no more cyno mallers, no more bait hot drop domis (these are but a few of peoples complaints about cynos). Now the cyno will be on a ship that can't really move cloaked, and who's tank is relatively thin. The covert cyno is now placed on a ship that is much more lumbering than the covert frigates that are currently used, giving a viable chance at gate defense to stop covert penetration before it really starts.
Now you have a fix to your hot drop problems that so worry everybody to death in a no local situation.
Still, as much a carebear as I admittedly am, I enjoy the sense of danger when I rat. I even got my first solo kill (that wasn't a hauler heh) while ratting. Jewing can be exciting if you stay in belts but the belts pay shit anymore compared to anoms and the respawn rates don't provide much income for more than a person (or two in systems with many belts) at a time.
Delayed local is not about ganking the ratters. Effortless, 100% accurate intel is the real problem here and dodging that issue by throwing out random comments on risk/reward or pretending 0.0 will die overnight is indeed slightly dumb. As is assuming this will happen as a single change and not as part of a package. Ignoring the prospect of an improved directional scanner, ihub-upgrades or other, more suitable intel tools is dishonest to the discussion.
I don't believe anyone will actually believe that local will be just removed without adding a new intel type tool. But no matter what, risk will always increase without increasing the reward. I can remember CCP already saying they had plans to nerf rat bounties to balance out their horrible implementation of incursions. So actually saying that the risk will actually increase without extra reward is a valid point.
Also when people say that no local works and then look at wormholes. They kinda forget that you actually have control about the people entering your system. You can basically soft reset the entrances. And basically lock down your wormhole so that you are relative safe. with the exception of people being piled up in your system. This would mean that you have to worry less about random people wandering in your hole as you will see when a new exit wormhole will open and warn you for visitors. There won't be gangs roaming through your hole every 15 minutes if you don't want to otherwise you would never be able to commit caps like now and make it as profitable as it is.
Grath, you can make the point that local intel is a separate issue to risk aversion or nullsec populations but they are intrinisically linked.
Its like saying that the pier you're standing on is too small and should be removed but argle bargle stop arguing about gravity that's got nothing to do with the conversatio- argh why are we in the water!?!?
If the goal is to remove local for the sake of removing local, then you can logically separate it. If the goal is removing local to improve something else (romaing, nullsec danger, ease of targets) then they are linked to other issues already discussed, and cannot be discounted, no matter how much you shit on others about it.
Local as an intel source is broken, it shows too much, gives too much, with absolutely no effort. It is no different in concept to automatically getting anything else free constantly while you're logged in. You wouldn't think getting 1 isk per second you were logged in was normal, this is the same.
That is the issue, you tacking on whatever you need to after to try and justify why you should get something broken and free like that in a game like eve is exactly that: You trying to justify it.
Still doesn't make it less broken.
The one thing I WISH CCP would do to aid small gang pvp is create a toggle in the in-game map to remove high sec (and another for low sec) from view. As I've used the map more and more, I find that it can be pretty effective for finding targets of the right size and shape if you get used to it - but separating the 0.0 or low sec lights from the high sec ones is a huge pain in the ass.
If you're in one of the megablob alliances with nothing but blues for 50 jumps in any direction, well, that's what alts are for. Go solo, or join one of the various roaming alliances, like BL or -D- and pew your m8s.
The use of local to reduce risk means that it is intrinsically linked to the risk:reward balance.
Give local 30 second delay, increase rat bounties by 20-40%
REMOVE local, increase rat bounties by 100%
Wow, what a fucking amazingly difficult problem
The idea has merit, but with those numbers everyone with a brain with have local on.
Oh is that what he meant, I tried about six times to read his comment but he had me completely fucking stumped.
Securitas has the right of it, CCP should pick one of those options - additionally, this poaw fellow should drink as much bleach as he can in 20 minutes
is bleach even an in-game item
you aren't really trying anymore
I didn't actually mean ingame
Right now local chat is not as OP tool as some players tend to portrait it, and the reason is - pve part in nullsec is incredibly tedious and boring, after a hour or so of non-stop grinding people tend to lose focus and quite often you wont be noticed for 10-20 seconds after entering local.
..and those local chat changes would completely eliminate that part, so no more free ratter kills unless you make effort of placing cloaky cynoalt in ratting system.
For those who want to eliminate local chat completely - you maybe forgetting about mining, those cute little miners in their juicy hulks are totally vulnerable to anything with nearly no way to protect themselves. Now, maybe, just maybe, you would like to consider changes in drone regions, removal of non-named t1 loot from drop tables and noticable efforts of CCP in banning publicly available mining bots' users.
If you look at places where non-consensual PvP needs to be increased, you look at where the populations have overwhelmed local resources. Case in point, highsec belts. Veld roids stripped, a million jetcans strewn about, once in a while you'll find essentially unmanned waves of stripminers tearing away without a care in the world. Another case, highsec Incursions. What ridiculous logic results in CONCORD sweeping in seconds after hostile shots in a system supposedly corrupted by Sansha? These are the guys that need to have their day ruined. Does local matter in this case? Not in the slightest.
Now let's look at nullsec belts; empty, save the rats. Let's look at gate traffic; essentially squat. Jumpbridge traffic - hey, remember when you guys swore sideways that nerfing JBs would revitalize PvP? Idle. Where are the bumbling mobs that need to be cut down here?
Griping about the 'effort involved' in maintaining intel in our fucking space that we pay through the nose for is ridiculous. Despite that effort you insist is too low, there's nobody here; your mythical Titan ratters making crazy bank, your 'casual 80m subcap ratters', remain just that, myths. Phantoms in the imagination of roamers who swear they must have just safed the very instant a red appeared in local, and not a moment earlier. Rubbish. Reds jump through our gates without warning or even paying fees; they shoot the rats from our upgraded anoms without paying taxes. Just what are our sov bills going to here? You really want to talk about the local window, the sovholders and their blues should have full local access, and you shouldn't.
And if you can't maintain operational security in moving fleets around, in a universe with the casual ease of titan bridges, it's pretty obviously due to organizational shortcomings in finding unscouted systems to bounce through. Perhaps you need to discipline your forward cynos a bit instead of complacently using the same midpoints over and over, and maybe you need to see who all is listening in on your comms.
Not everyone has a titan Mpozoy, and moving stealthily definitely shouldn't require one. CCP never intended for local to be used as intel, they've even said it somewhere(+rep to someone who can find the post) that local is being misused and they are looking for ways to fix it. It's remained essentially intact for the entire duration of the game while the things it has been used for have changed.
The Colorblind Angel of Kugutsumen - Turning Bad Country into Mad Country one post a time
Your claim as I understand is that local as an intel tool is too over powered. Your solution to fix it is to get rid of it.
We're telling you that by removing it, you're effecting other aspects of the game. They're very much linked and thinking otherwise is why there's frustration here.
Listen, I want targets to shoot in nullsec and I agree that someone showing up as soon as you jump into a system sucks. The best idea I've seen in this thread as a happy medium, without raping current mechanics is to make it so you don't show up in local until you decloak. This would give you the opportunity to jump into a system, do a system scan and hit d-scan a few times to get where a ratter is and jump them if they are not on their toes.
By removing local completely there are resulting factors that are greatly effected and increasing CPU on a module isn't going to fix it. Frankly, I find your ideas are to make the game more of a headache instead of more fun. Can you start giving me scenario as to where the removal of local would be fun on a continued basis? Serious question.
As I see it, it would make the game more boring and more of a hassle than it already is.
-Less people would be attracted to nullsec = less targets to shoot.
-Problems with warping cloaked and lighting a cyno (you've offered a suggestion, not sure I fully agree, but it would help, if they did the suggestion above where you show up after you decloak this would also help the issue).
-Finding fights becomes harder as you rely on local right now to know where enemy fleets are.
Another thought could be that if I'm in a system before you, I have the advantage on local intel. For example, I can see you jump in to local since I'm in system, however when you jump in, it's empty to you until someone else jumps in.
Yeah, I don't get how he can keep piping up about how the "local makes everything 100% safe", yet "this isn't linked to ratters feeling safe". I get the frustration with having scouts in various systems giving out intel on what goes through various systems (or even on numbers in formup systems etc), but I've yet to see any suggestions to changes which'd make this Not A Problem, while not completely fucking over ratters and miners.
The keeping out of local until after you drop gatecloak is a minor roaming buff without being too much of a buff to the point where it makes it very likely that someone'll die to every roaming gang that comes derping around, but if that is extended to anything which can cloak then you've just made roaming gangs favor cloaking ships. It still doesn't help grath's pet peeve of not being able to move around unseen, though, only a few minutes' delay or a complete removal of local would do that, and no matter how much he gnashes his teeth, that will have an impact on people actually living in various nullsec systems.
As I said earlier, if we were to make changes to local, I'd make it a SOV module which can be incapped/hacked, so those who have SOV or are friends with those who have SOV, have the added benefit of a systematic upgrade of the solar system, so they can see everyone who is in it, while those who are hostile intruders can't. It makes sense that hisec and lowsec has local, since it can be argued that it's a system upgrade which the various factions provide, whereas it makes no sense in nullsec. I could see NPC nullsec f.ex not having local at all, while capturable nullsec can be upgraded to contain local. That way we get to make our space safer to derp around in (so people'll actually feel like moving in without CCP having to buff rewards to WH levels), and Grath can move his fleet around in NPC space while being covert. vOv
CCP even said that they would like to change that iirc. From what I remember the warp code is similar to their pos code as in that they won't touch it with a fourty foot pole unless they really have to so I don't expect changes their withing the next three years
If there is a way for a Stealthbomber to approach undedected you can ownzone him even if he does pretty much everything right. If not through the ship itself then through the tactics it enables. (Cyno/Point till your friends can apply point as well etc.)
If someone is serious about Mining they will have a hidden belt you have to scan down first. So in a way they would be saver then ratters since they could see your probes on dscan before you can get a hit on them, in comparison without local you could be on grid with a ratter in an anomalie before they even know you are in System.
I don't think a WH-style local would work well in 0.0 since dynamic connections and no cynos are a big part of what makes it work there.
Safety is one of the factors that makes mining scale much better than ratting. 10 players working together will produce more than 10 times as much ore as 1 guy on his own, while 10 guys trying to work a single system for rats will lose efficiency. If you have a 10-man mining op, then only 1 guy at once has to keep watch to protect the whole op from nasty surprises.