Or stop belt ratting in you bil-isk ship and use a drake, then it wont hurt so much when you get ganked. Save your faction Tengu for plexes. Atleast if you are in a plex you have time to get out while they probe you down.
Or stop belt ratting in you bil-isk ship and use a drake, then it wont hurt so much when you get ganked. Save your faction Tengu for plexes. Atleast if you are in a plex you have time to get out while they probe you down.
As opposed to now where you jump in and everything docks up the second you enter system and doesn't undock again until they have exactly 3 times your number and the exact perfect counter to whatever you have, meaning the roaming gang is forced to sit and wait somewhere for an hour while you get ready.Originally Posted by Zagdul
No I think I'll take the cries of whatever gets tackled in 0.0 that calls for help that escalates into a fight over what we have now. Roaming is literally worse than mining currently in eve, and local is the reason.
Yea, lord knows adding a bit of uncertainty to the game wouldn't fix anything at all. Local as it is, is broken, its an all seeing eye that instantly gives you perfect intel about who and how many your enemies are.
We nerfed jumpbridges already, what more do you want?
Uncertainty isn't what bothers me about removing local, it's adding more work to pvp. Doesn't this game have enough spreadsheets, horrible-difficult-to-navigate UI elements and shit mechanics to make things un-fun?
Can you guys wake up out of the dream that making life harder for pve'ers is gone magicly create a world full of small gang pvp. The jumpbridge nerf didn't didn't turn 0.0 into this magical land of space unicorns and small gang targets and removing local won't ether.
Its like saying that getting kicked in the balls every 3 meters makes walking more enjoyable.
Local is one of those things that makes it unfun, unless you call moving 60 jumps for 2 kills that you got from some poor schmuck cross jumping your gang fun.
But see I've been down this roam, and Ive realized long ago that the CFC despise anything that makes them play the game outside timers, having a group who's sole job is just to prowel your owns space is unfun in your eyes, even though they'd get more small gang PVP than they know what to do with as people scour your space looking for anom runners and ratters to kill.
The idea that you couldn't find somebody in your own space is fairly laughable, they have to use pipes and gates, you get to use all the tools SOV gives you to dance around those people while being just as shielded from the all seeing eye of local. The tactical options having a delayed or no local opens up are fairly amazing to think about, and all of them, beat jumping in and knowing that there is 100% no chance the 40 dudes in local won't fight you until they can get 120 logged on with 10 scorpions and 20 logistics because you have 35 guys in your roaming gang.
The fights in EVE are becoming these terrible static events that are easy to avoid and time around if thats what you want to do to try and win. Adding a measure of blindness to the average player will go a long way, even if its somewhat painful to adjust to.
No, because 0.0 empires that don't have tech run on the income made by their ratters. If they can't keep their ratters safe from roaming gangs they won't have ratters, if they don't have ratters their poor, so they'll patrol their space and make it safe for ratters which in turn promotes small gang warfare, your inability to see this is pretty fucking shocking.
If you put the wallet at risk people will fight to protect it.
Perhaps give ships a scan range that can cover the whole system, but becomes innacurate after a point. And make it so that the scanner can differentiate between active and inactive ships. Something like "there is a 75% probability that 4 ships are active in this system. here are the possible types..." cloakers still dont show up, which would be the same as it is right now.
I don't think anybody ever said that the jumpbridge nerf would improve 0.0, in fact I'm pretty sure most 0.0 residents were quite pissed about it, carebears or not.
I wouldnt be heartbroken if scouts had to actually scout. As it is now they mostly just jump into system, and report how many are in local chat (no one) and move on.
Everyone realizes that you can't make life in nullsec harder without increasing the rewards, but you have to be willing to accept that extra risk instead of sticking with a failing status quo.
If you kill enough of them they stop fighting - Gen. Curtis Lemay
Fear the KKM
No i said it would improve it, and theres a far sight more small camps that go up between jump bridge systems, but i thought it should be one bridge per constellation to promote even more actual movement.
I'll never understand what people like TheYeti think generate fights, its either shooting a structure, or trapping a ratter, historically in EVE, this is how you generate a fight.
There are no hidden "dragon fleets' in eve, there is no surprise in fleet warfare to promote more diverse fleet types, there is one window that tells you most of the information that you'll need to know to either engage or disengage.
EXAMPLE: Local shows 30 hostiles, if its nulli, you now have a good idea of what ship types your facing, if its PL theres a greater chance you don't want your own caps on the field, and you know how safe you are to undock your 60 man gang and take those guys on, or if its Darkside you now know that 60 won't quite be enough but you're probably safe to use triage for reps since they wont field caps but you need another 20 dudes in fleet before you're ready to engage.
Thats pretty fucking dumb that one window can grant you that much information.
Delayed local will force null sec entities to maintain local, active patrols to catch the gankers if they can or at least provide intel on their location. My personal interest in it ultimately has very little to do with ganking people and very much to do with starting fights. That said, the only way that it could justifiably work would be to increase the disparity between high sec and null sec Pve incomes. Also, the point on cynos is interesting, but it does go both ways. The cyno ship won't know what's in local until the enemy knows he's there. Making ships instantly appear in local when they come through a cyno does seem reasonable though.
I think like a 30 - 60 second delay on local updates would be awesome. You could slip in and out of a system without being detected (with a whole gang if you were quick) but doesn't kill the intimidation of afk-cloaking a system.
e: just update local every minute synced with the in-game clock, add a second-timer to the in-game clock so people could actually play with it.
Hahahahaha sure.
People will just move to high/lowsec, because if they wanted to spam d-scan they'd be in a wormhole.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/hChYV.png[/IMG]
"Every rifter counts friend" - VR
It doesn't matter if you rat in 0.0 or in highsec. As long as you do it in corp/alliance you make money for the alliance. So there is absolutely no reason to pve in 0.0. As running highsec incursion will yield you more tax then any 0.0 pve activity will be able to. With a exception of a titan ratting. But I honestly doubt that anyone is stupid enough to rat in a titan with delayed local. I haven't seen the whole deal about moon mining changing. But changing moon mining to asteroid only create more targets for small gang pvp than changing local ever would.
There was a similar discussion about it as with local. With people saying that it would make for much more small gang targets as people would have to pass gates. In the end it turned out that cause of the intel channels people just would use a different rout or form a blob to remove the camp.
The only way it works is if you create an income disparity between high/low/null large enough to justify the additional risk/logistical effort. Pretty sure I said that in my post.
Nothing justifies forcing a pilot to spam D-Scan every 5 seconds for intel. Any change to local will have to come with a change to the other tools that pilots use to gather intel.
where have you been baby my cock is hard
How?
The second the small gang was next door the scout would report their exact numbers and then there wont be anything in the belts to catch.
I dont see how making more things to do without making it any easier to catch people will ever increase small gang activity. Still only really leaves you with camp gate or make timer.
And to the guy bitching about mashing dscan every 5 seconds, its about the same amount of fun as mashing the jump button 212 times a night while you roam around hoping something is stupid enough to jump into you.
what bothers me so much about this view isn't the idea of additional intel tools, which I think could be worked into sov, but the idea that in the current system the only way a 1000 man alliance can defend their pilots from small roaming gangs is to have them spam d-scan. Are people really this unimaginative/lazy?
By aligning out and dscanning every 30 seconds ratters are effectively invulnerable regardless of local mechanics. All I hear from those against these changes is bitching about having to actually play the game. I'm sorry you would actually have to accept risk in nullsec, but thats the way it should have always been.
If you kill enough of them they stop fighting - Gen. Curtis Lemay
Fear the KKM
So is this our weekly "Guys who loudly brag about making all their isk in highsec tell us how much living in 0.0 should suck" conversation
And I hope people appreciate that my goal (and others I would assume) isn't to wipe out all of the null sec ratters by making things too easy for the gankers. I'm like one of those hunters that supports the Sierra Club. I want that species to thrive so that I can kill it, without threatening extinction, so I can come back the next day and kill it again. I don't want the solution to be some "retard saltlick" that I can stand by with my shotgun, I want it to be a challenge. Buy in it's current form it goes beyond the challenge of a Lion taking down a buffalo protected by it's pack, and is instead a lion trying to catch a buffalo that can fly.....with his buffalo wings.....
The idea of having an intel tool latched to sov is no better than the D-Scan option because it then ties another aspect of the game to inanimate objects. The tools need to be on the ship and likely tied to the electronics of the ship the person is piloting.
I'd imagine some type of formula in which the ships sensor str is matched against the hostile ships sensor str and sig to determine the effectiveness(delay)/chance of detection. (I dunno, maybe a little too complex but I like complex for Eve). Along with this the D-Scanner will likely need to be some type of passive system with the traditional "Scan" button for active intel gathering.
I also wish they'd go back to the previous iteration on ship scanning as this system is more than retarded in the way you can drop a scan hit on a static grid in under 10 seconds but pull your hair out scanning for moving targets. It's my feeling that this system actually limits the available fleet compositions because there are certain comps that require range that get pushed off the grid far to early. The previous system you needed ~40 seconds to land a warp-able hit along with being able to scan multiple spots in a system at the same time whereas this system you can only scan 2 locations max.
I suppose I could also go into how long-range guns have far to high of tracking - also limiting available fleet compositions. I know it's been a while since I've been online but all the discussions about using fleet comps like aHacs vs. long range fit ships such as 1400ArtiMaels would have been a no brainer a year ago yet now it doesn't seem possible. While I might be an absolute fan of any fleet comp which produces short-range slug fests, I find it troubling that LR arties have that much of an impact in fleet comp - especially since arties were always supposed to be the highest alpha with the worst tracking. I also find it troubling that Dreads are doing as much dmg to sub-cap fleets as they are. Capitals should always be deployed with support and the fact that they can still be deplyed on their own erks me. I will, however, admit that I've never been a huge proponent of capitals in the first place.
I can't believe I'm going to jump into this moldy sink full of stale arguments, but goddamn its a slow day at work.
I would suggest 3 things have to happen, more or less together, to restore vibrant, dynamic, desirable life to 0.0, for everyone (PVE and PVP):
(1) PVE in 0.0 has to be worth more than High Sec. There has to be a reason to want to be there on a regular (not just fleet ops) basis. Passive or active, incursion or mining, it has to be worth more than high sec or its unsustainable. Other than alliance level tech, this just isn't the case today compared to high sec incursioning.
(2) Bots must be tamed. If you boost PVE but don't control the bots, you will wreck the economy. Whether its group PVE like incursions that bots are poorly suited for, or very aggressive anti-bot policing, bots have to be held in check, or the economy becomes unbalanced toward the 1% of players running bots, not the 99% of actual humans you want living there.
(3) Then make risk comparable to the reward. I would love to be able to make 200-400m isk / hr doing incursions or other active PVE in 0.0, even with substantial risk. Risk, in both pvp and pve makes eve fun and the game that it is. This is why people rage at high sec incursions (and arguably L4s) - imbalance, not the isk/hr. I still have fond memories of my scrub days in eve trying to drive my Raven 30 jumps while evading hostiles, just to run an escalation. JB nerf, remove local, whatever, won't work if you don't make the PVE worth the risk.
The point is, you have to do all 3. If you do only 2 of them, the stool becomes unbalanced. They buffed anoms, which brought tons of duders out to 0.0, but didn't really increase the risk, and let botting get out of control. Then they nerfed anoms and JBs, which, combined with Incursions has pushed people back to high sec.
Quality of life - like the retarded state of 0.0 industry - has a role here too. But its not one idea or one fix - its going to take several things together; eve is too complex and the player base too crafty to think one tweak will fix the whole mess. It sounds like CCP is working hard on the bots (lol, ok, maybe not, time will tell) and is taking steps on the PVE side with the mineral changes, new plexes, and maybe even incursion-style content for 0.0. Fix the PVE risk-reward, control the bots, and then add in risk (without nerfing the upside) and everyone will get what they want.
Please tell me we're having another "remove local" debate.
I don't think making shooting red X's more profitable will draw anyone, and will only enrich those already there. Drawing activities into null sec will provide targets. Those activities probably should not involve combat ships, but require additional bodies to provide protection.
Hold on, let me put on my nerf local chat t-shirt.
Muhadin/Mordeth Aridhol - Origin. - Black Legion.
The same arguments, the same positive and negative points. The sad thing its not even as much fun as "supers are OP" because at least CCP have been throwing spanners in that discussion to make things interesting(ish) over the last 12 months.
They're not going to nerf local in 0.0's current state. We all need to accept that, and move on.
While this may be true, we shouldn't just cut ourselves off of at least discussing ideas on how to change it. As long as there aren't any good ideas to change it, then your statement will continue to be true.
The first thing you need to do is fix nullsec for PVE, and PVP will follow.
While champions of the nerf local argument such as Grath grind hisec incursions for isk, they have no leg to stand on in the argument.
First you need to make it viable to live there. These buffs to industry in null go one step. Planet Ring mining might, details to be revealed.
Be prepared to pay a lot more for your ships, though. That's the side affect of making industry in null viable, you will pay more.
I find that while it is true that Industry and PvP are linked in some fashion, mostly in the realm of industrial corps renting space and/or producing cheaper ships for PvP'ers to continue PvP'ing, I don't think that there is an actual viability problem in 0.0. Even without anoms and plexes, people (including me) were making a living in 0.0 with minimal effort.
Industry in 0.0 is not only viable, it's necessary as 0.0 is the only place things like supers and t3 can be produced. However, there are things that can be done, in conjunction with removing Local as an intel tool, that will offset the risk such as removing static belts and improving the scanner to be more of a passive system that employs an automatic and active radar~ish type system. It's also important to note that this isn't only an increase in risk for the residents of the space but also the aggressors since Local is a universal intel tool. This would also shift the requirements of fleet comps to include scouts and hard-intel sources - which I'm a fan of.
Why would we do that, the game company itself has admitted on multiple occasions that Local as it is is broken, unfair, and in need of change.
Just because you've accepted something you've made true in your own mind doesn't mean the rest of us need to.
I make money wherever I'm at. Right now I have fairly easy access to high sec incursions while basing in low sec. While we were in the drone regions I ran the incursions that spawned out there, while in Venal I ran Guristas missions, and while down south I generally do exploration to make money.
I have a perfect leg to stand on because my points are valid and true, regardless of where I'm currently making money I have literally explored every avenue of isk making open to players in EVE. Ive mined, ran t2 production and invention, built a few cap ships (fuck that its gay), lived in a wormhole, ran anoms in a regular ship AND a titan, belt ratted, ect.
You can exaggerate how terrible life in 0.0 is if you want to but I've lived there and done what you have to do to make money and its brokenly easy to avoid any form of conflict while doing it. There is more chance my nightmare gets ganked while running high sec incursions than there is that an euqally fit nightmare running anoms in Deklien.
So have my leg to stand on, and shove it up your ass.
A lot of people are either for local nerf or against local nerf without defining what that nerf is. A lot of people agree that it's a 'delay' or removal of certain pertinent information which makes it easier to ignore some traffic and flag others, but there's less extreme ways of removing Local's current functionality (to alert Dude One who is belt-ratting that Dude Two is coming to possibly kill him a full five seconds before Dude Two even loads grid in Dude One's system, much less knows Dude One exists) in favor of one which still gives an alert ratter a good chance of getting the fuck out but promises nothing to cap/supercap ratters or bots.
E: And like others have been saying, local doesn't need to be so buff if you/your corp/your alliance is actually living in an area and can thereby report incoming baddies long before they pop up in local. There's definitely ways to protect yourself in 0.0 aside from being guaranteed a way out.
It isn't a lack of imagination, it is just plain apathy. No one cares enough about ratters to give a flying fuck whether they get caught by some roaming gang. Catch a Test carrier in a sanctum to test this statement if you want. The alliance doesn't strategicly care because moon goo pays for everything anyways.
And people that mine in null... They probably consider themselves lucky if they don't get dropped by blues.
The fact remains that you are highsec incursioning to make isk. Previous to that, as I understand it (and apologies if this is incorrect) you were titan ratting.
I put it forward to you that yourself and other people who push for the local nerf may have at one time mined/ratted in nullsec for a living, but this was a different time, many years ago, when EVE and nullsec was different. The fact that you are not currently making your isk in nullsec helps solidify the point that nullsec, in its current form, is not the isk-making machine it can/should be.
The argument is not 'can i live in nullsec', you can. i can, and do. I too have done all the things you have said, except super production. The highsec/nullsec risk.reward equation has changed since then.
The argument is 'why the fuck should i live in nullsec when i can make more isk in highsec incursions, buy shit in jita, jump freighter it to null and log in my fleet main whenever there's a ping'. This is a very common situation amongst a lot of people in nulsec current form. Making it harder to live in nullsec via local nerfs does not improve the situation, as others have said, done in isolation before nullsec is 'the place to be' will merely make your roaming situation worse. If you yourself refuse to be a potential target for small gang roamings, why are you expecting others to?
Given the mockup of a potential future local CCP showed at fanfest, I'm really not sure that a nerf to its intel-gathering utility is on the cards for the foreseeable future:
[spoiler="big-ish image, possibly old news"]
(it's from this video at around 2:15)[/spoiler]
[I]spherical monkey fears and envies[/I]
My first alliance did exactly that. We had a required to join fleet, so that we could warp right to a ratter in trouble. Some of my favorite kills came from patrolling eastern Provi in small groups.
We also used to have *gasp* mining ops where our indy pilots could mine a system while the PVPers tried to put it in lockdown from reds. Everyone relies on hidden belts these days. I used to mine in a belt when I wanted to relax and sit around watching TV..
Maybe local should be tied to your ship (unless someone chats in system) Give each ship 10 au of local anything entering the coverage area shows immediately but not necessarily when they jump in (unless the gate is in range). No mashing dscan and you keep local but it's not tied to a gate activation.
Because the Test member base has moved all those mining/ratting operations to the deployment region, right?
That's the point. The entire argument in this thread and several others: Not enough people living/residing in the space they have sov over. It's the same argument people in the incursion thread are having (people doing their jewing in highsec and pod jumping for CTAs, never actually LIVING in the space their alliance has sov in). With nothing being done in their sov space, there's nothing to catch to force fights for roaming gangs. Why is that so hard to grasp?
The fact you seem okay with the idea that 6vdt being completely empty and nothing to complain about because "they're deployed" is one of the reasons why this game is knee deep in shit. It shouldn't be okay for alliances to not a day to day presence in space they have sov in.
[URL="http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12609601"][ 2012.03.02 08:32:51 ] Kurth Ren > whereas love squad avoids any engagement that is not a onesided curbstomp[/URL]
[URL="http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11888507"][ 2012.03.02 08:34:08 ] Kurth Ren > but you are literally arguing with the inventor of broski, you aren't going to win a debate about broski history with me[/URL]
[URL="http://unidan.net/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=1876"][ 2012.03.02 08:40:48 ] Kurth Ren > it's filled with bitter faggots who would rather be slaves to finns and run at the first sign of a fight then go on ops[/URL]
The fact remains that you make this out to be the only way I make money when I've plainly stated that its what I use due to my current location.
If I was in 0.0 I'd make my money there, but currently I'm not.
This pretty much invalidates everything else you're saying. I'll be in a 0.0 region soon enough, do you think i'll stop making money, or that i'll clone jump to empire every time i need money? Thats not going to make me very effective in 0.0 combat, especially when I use Grath to run incursions (its a nice trade, the incusions jack my sec up, living in lowsec keeps it down).
I'm willing to let nullsec get a little worse (Honestly, short of a mass migration to another game it can't get much worse) if it means that it gets better in the long run, because the sheer idea of roaming right now is literally less fun than ice mining, at least ice mining gives you that feel of things being productively done.
Spamming D-Scan while having your eyes glued to a screen at the edge of your seat for hours on end while you grind up your isk for a shit, inflated economy sounds like my kind of engaging, fun experience.
This will be really easy to sell to new pilots wondering how to get the isk for their first battle cruiser. Should be good for retention as well.
The bottom line is that there currently isn't a better mechanic in game for relaying intel and removal of local with the current tools that are in place is a bad idea. You're now forcing pilots to spam d-scan, while remaining aligned as they rat. This is a retarded, stupid and moronic idea. The argument arises that, well, they have to do it in wormholes. Wormholes don't have to worry about a fleet of capitals landing on your head by a cyno lit from a ship which can warp cloaked. This right here unbalances it and makes the idea dumb. Not until there are other mechanics in game to alert you of hostiles in an area, be it human (intel channels) or some kind of in-game radar system.
This will discourage people from remaining in null sec and you'll have less bears to farm who haven't figured out that warping off when hostiles come in is how you survive. Right now catching dumb ratting carriers isn't hard and causes for some decent fun. There's plenty of ways to catch people off guard and it happens all the time. I see it on my killboards.
The problem is, if you make null less inviting, more cumbersome to live in on a day to day basis, you'll be left with the bright people who do pay attention and generally play smart. The chance for engagements will lessen. The amount of work needed to find said engagements will increase and make the whole process less fun. As it stands, with the tools available, the idea to remove local is short sighted.
I'd have a bit of issue with outright removal of local or even WH style delayed local (where one has to speak to be seen) but a short delay would probably mean good things happening.
This isn't what they've said.
The only quote I've been able to find is Greyscale (lol) saying he doesn't like how local currently works. However, there aren't proper tools in place to remove it if they wanted to and that the amount of effort necessary to put in those tools would push far too many other priorities to the side.
It was in one of the many threadnaughts in EVE-O on the subject.
Like what? More easy ganks on carebears who barely fight back?
It's not going to force engagements. FC's with balls will create content and engagements. Instead of ones who whine about the effort to go a few jumps to find one. When we take our fleets out, we expect to lose them, period. If we don't get a fight, fuck it... wrap it in and try again tomorrow.
The issue is that there are too many bittervet FC's who don't remember, even with current mechanics, how fun it is to go out on a roam as a newbie. We're full of newbies who love the thrill of a chase. If we lose a fleet, fuck it, they had fun and ships blew up. Too many risk averse people who don't want to engage or are too hung up on a k/d ratio are why engagements don't happen. It's rare to see a fight where the outcome is unknown.
Removing local or delaying it won't fix this.
Zagdul, nullsec is supposed to be somewhat dangerous. You shouldnt be able to run anoms with one hand on your dick and the other fingering your asshole without fear of being ganked. Im not usually one of those internet tough guys who thinks eve needs to be brutal, but a little more risk/reward would be good here.
If you kill enough of them they stop fighting - Gen. Curtis Lemay
Fear the KKM
yeah pretty much all this is complete truth. good post.
Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.
Hi this is stupid and you are full of shit, being a bitter vet FC didn't stop me from doing over 200 jumps and finding not fuck all that will engage us, it didn't stop our 10 man gang from sitting in VFK for FOURTY FUCKING MINUTES waiting for a gang to form, which turned out to be how many? Oh yea 40 guys, that half hearted it and then fucked off.
This roaming utopia you live in is fabricated, its a lie, it doesn't exist, the only way to make people fight is through timers and thats NOT small gang warfare.
So you can sit and make up all the dumb shit you want but not a fucking word one of what you typed was true, as newbies as well as bitter vets alike hate spaming the jump button for 3 hours with no fucking reward.
Here, let me help with your own words:
and finally
3 years ago, CCP Oveur said, in literal words "Local is broken and gives too much infromation, we intend to fix it". The company line has remained for years that local is broken, and they intend to fix it.
So Zag you can make up these small gang roams that happen every night full of bright eye'd newbies that are itching to do 90 jumps for a single drake kill but sell that shit to those fucking cocksucker in your own alliance, the rest of us know damn full well that the likely outcome of most roams are simply that you're going to be spamming the jump button all night without being able to go afk JUST IN CASE SOMETHING ACTUALLY COMES BY YOUR GANG without getting a fight.
Yea, because black legion roams every night and gets into a fight right? No, sorry, even the rest of your alliance has stories about how fucking gay it is to roam 40 jumps just to find out IRC doesn't feel like undocking.
The only way you're currently getting fights is Soho or goons are creating timers for you to fight on, if thats the only form of PVP eve has left to offer then I'd say its pretty fucked.
.
Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.
oh look another thread that CCP won't read where people argue what CCP should do
To be quite honest dude, I don't blame them for riding on another person's timers. Shooting structures to get a fight is horrible. If I were in their shoes, I'd do the same fucking thing.
Thank you, come again.
today we roamed in EUTZ and got init to escalate some random dudes ganking missioners to them losing a carrier on the gate to their home system. yesterday we roamed in AUTZ and managed to get xdeath to escalate and killed a carrier on the undock of their home stn.
the fights are there, the kills are there, the players have to be there. timers are EZ mode, guaranteed fitez, but ultimately if dudes flat dont want to fight you, they don't have to show up to those either.
Mfume Apocal - Origin. - Black Legion.
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