With all the chest beating from FW folks, I imagine there's a nice tear generating opportunity for PL. Alliances will be able to join FW soon, right?
With all the chest beating from FW folks, I imagine there's a nice tear generating opportunity for PL. Alliances will be able to join FW soon, right?
Alliances have been able to join FW since December brah.Originally Posted by Manfred Hideous
Also, ask PL how many tears they generated by whelping a Titan into them. Those SotF and Wolfsbrigade guys probably drown in their tears brah.
I should have started a new paragraph for that, isk generation has nothing to do with "end game". But I would love for anyone to explain how holding space is "end game". Give me a single benefit of holding space over me living in an NPC station in low sec. I can think of two: Cyno Jammers, CSAAs. We deal with the daily threat of being dropped and I don't plan on building Supers anytime soon. So...what does holding space offer me?
Used to be jumpbridges until some people went full retard over the NC jumpbridge map.
[Arrador] possesses a considerable understanding of ship configurations, strengths and weakness. He gives clear and purposeful instructions, is good at taking advantage of the fleet-composition he's dealt, and never loses sight of the main goal: fun. This, paired with an excellent tolerance for strong drink gives him an almost Churchillian capability to win, despite being completely pissed on booze most of the fleet operation.
They already can but every corp in the alliance needs to maintain a certain set of standings with the faction in question which is why no serious major players do it, I believe.
I have to ask, which faction is you corp in? Please say Amarr.Have fun getting AFK bombers into Minor plexes.. Yea you know "plexes" those odd things that you have to run to contest system, that limit ship types.. You do know what FW plexes are don't you? ...again FW system captures .. exactly like null sec.. umm not exactly..
Exactly. While I believe EVE has no "end game", I understand that the leadership and logistics required to build a null sec empire are not to be underestimated. It would be nice to see a reward for all that effort though; other than the pretty, colorful SOV maps.
EDIT: Also, you find you have very little use for JBs when you have no blues :P
I'm not sure why people are expecting competence from CCP in this thread. Any sort of nerf to jump freighters' capabilities is nice though.
They log in unfortunately.
If FW mechanics changed such that militias could interdict jump routes between 0.0 and empire, that's precisely what logistical operations would become...a weekend alliance outing/roadtrip to join the appropriate militia, secure the appropriate system and tear down any improvements (jammer) to allow jump operations to commence. It would require a fairly high degree of organization (particularly as regards standings) but working all of that out would just be a fun exercise for the alliance/coallition brains who enjoy planning and organizing, and then everybody would execute accordingly. When the op is done, the system is abandoned and the "real" FW people are allowed to proceed with their day to day skirmishes.
The biggest hypothetical there is whether or not militias will be given mechanics to allow interference with 0.0 jump travel. The certainty is that 0.0 alliances would develop a counter, even if it means consolidating alliance logistical runs to a monthly roadtrip to occupy a FW system long enough to remove any infrastructure and free up movement.
That would definitely be way cool.
Delurking to try and prove that not all factional warfare folks are mongoloids.
To translate this into non-mouthbreather, Factional Warfare sovereignty is actually tied to a series of complexes, each of which has a limit on the size of ship that can come in. The smallest of them are minors, which only allow in T1 frigates (including faction and pirate), destroyers and industrials (let me tell you about my combate Iteron V).Have fun getting AFK bombers into Minor plexes.. Yea you know "plexes" those odd things that you have to run to contest system, that limit ship types.. You do know what FW plexes are don't you? ...again FW system captures .. exactly like null sec.. umm not exactly..
After orbitting a central object for 10, 15 or 20 minutes depending on the size of the complex (and holy fuck enough with the things that can be shortened to 'plexes') you get around 100 VPs - this leads a fundamental debate amongst factional warfare folks as to whether it is worse to go and shoot red crosses for 20 minutes for no monetary gain or spend those 20 minutes hanging out with the NPCs because they're your bros for no monetary gain.
After your lot has 3000 VPs in a system - note that this means at least 5 man-hours of EVE PvE for it's own sake, since you're not getting paid - you then get the sheer pleasure of shooting a static object for little to no true gain until maybe the summer patch.
All of that is a long winded way of saying that AFK bombers probably wouldn't grief us as much as our own sovereignty system already does, but if you come down in Thrashers and manage to force us off plexes, it makes us do the longer ones for no extra VP or isk.
That's one thing null and FW share I suppose
Personally, I think the idea is so silly that it isn't really even worth considering. I'm amazed it's gotten so much discussion. Mostly it seems to be a chance for FW people to spurge on about how, for 10minutes in the history of eve, they mighta coulda woulda gotten a chance to be relevant to 0.0. The desire to be such only reflects the identity crisis they are suffering from.
If there's eve news it's driven by 0.0 events or alliances and eve news drives subs. The debate around this mechanic will be framed by how it affects 0.0. Why would you want that? FW should be the driver of news in empire space. The debate shouldn't be framed by how it affects 0.0, but instead...how it affects EMPIRE. These are empire systems, ffs.
Anyway, nobody gives a shit about some .3 system that flipped and if the system went live...still nobody would care. It'd just be one more barrier of entry into 0.0 that can easily be removed by 24/7 1000 duders in maelstroms blotting out the sun. It's easy to blurf on an interweb forums, but FW's not going to stand up to that. The only ones hurt by this idea will be FW residents on supply routes enjoyed by large coalitions.
In all honestly man I don't get where you guys keep coming up with this PVP lite or weekend warriors stuff? We PVP every day. We live where we PVP & make our ISK meaning we can undock to find fights anytime we want. If anything most null sec Sov holders qualify more in line with "weekend warriors" than the active guys in FW. I undock and can find stuff to fight daily and hostilities live in our stations.
We don't live behind jump bridge chains or behind 20 jumps of intel channels with our care bear systems bubbled to hell and back with the biggest threat being some random Awoxer.
Looking at Goonswarm the largest alliance in in the game (8k members) they kill roughly 2.5k to 6k ships per month. Each FW militia alone tends to have 2k to 4k piliots at any given time with no where near that being active in the war front but any of the four Militia tends to average 3k to 5k kill per month.
(keep in mind that Alliances in FW & their kills no longer show up on EDK kill boards in the Militia stats, on EDK killboards KBs, because it still hasn't been update by their dev team)
http://caldari.eve-kill.net/?a=allia...il&all_id=1295
http://gallente.eve-kill.net/?a=alli...il&all_id=1330
http://minmatar.eve-kill.net/?a=alli...il&all_id=1285
http://amarr.eve-kill.net/?a=allianc...il&all_id=1285
While maybe we don't have large organized groups to blob out the sun with Drakes or Tengus or what ever the favorite ship is of the day for our smug "F1,F2. F3 warriors".. We are far from being weekend warriors. Also our KB's aren't padded with stats of shooting countless POS structures or having 300 guys whoring on the same KMs driving up our horrible ISK efficiency. "Some" of you null sec entities are pretty good the bulk are crap but yes I'm quite certain the larger groups can blot out the sun with numbers we aren't used to or can handle.
Yet end of the day, we will still be doing what we do and if it comes to that we with just up our game to be on par with the blobs. Minus the l33t super carrier PVP, but we won't need those being we will cyno jam every system in FW low sec if need be.
You must not of got the Memo but we already have PL guys living in our space.. So far it's only cost them a Titian.. lol
I mean of course we can't hold a candle to PL or groups like them, but I think FW guys have shown we also wont just roll over and play dead when someone invades our turff.
Because supers can't be parked in systems prior to their being cyno jammed...you're really bad at this.
Ok, have fun waiting AFK in your Nyx waiting to kill some Drakes, Rifters or maybe if your lucky some Abaddons. You guys do realize FW guys don't really care much about you null sec guys? Null sec is a place for us to go roam when we are board or more targets in local when you come to low sec, we don't really care about you other than that.. However if given the opportunity to grief you and create more content for our selves and potentially piss off you glorified carebears, then you can damn sure bet we will do so.
Honestly we really don't care, we like to shoot stuff. More stuff to shoot is usually good in our books.
NAP, I think the point that people are trying to make is that the nullsec alliances are used to doing what they must to survive even if it's a labor intensive pain in the ass. If it becomes vital to their survival to control FW systems to maintain their supply lines then they will find a way to do it. If the existing FW groups become an obstacle to that, then the nullsec alliances will find a way to neutralize that threat. It may not be fun for either side, but if it is deemed necessary it will get done.
One of the more interesting things to come out of the ability to cyno jam systems is just to see which systems get jammed. On the one hand, no one likes getting hotdropped in their home system, but on the other hand we rely on carriers and freighters to resupply ourselves. That said, the fear of being shat on by supers will mollified, as it's unlikely any nullsec alliance will care enough to park even just the one super in any system we're likely to jam.
I'm not absolutely sure what you would intend to do with those supers as under the proposed changes the bunker itself would be the cyno jammer, requiring someone who wants to take the thing down to be willing to organise the accruing 3000 VPs (since they can't go into most plexes in their supers, though there are unrestricted majors that allow anything even if they do take 20 minutes) and be in the opposing militia (the actual opposing militia mind, Caldari can't shoot Minmatar bunkers), so you'd likely not be able to use them for a quick bunker kill.
That's correct, and its a material issue. I have no doubt that the 0.0 alliances would find a way to maintain clear supply lines (I actually don't think they're going to go forward with this cyno jamming low sec at all, but judging by this thread it would be funny if they did), but alliances just hopping into any faction for a weekend is not going to be very easy.
Yet here you are, spurging all over the screen about how you're going to 'grief' null sec and doing it rather badly I might add. For a guy who doesn't really care about 0.0 you're spending alot of time trying to tell us how you should be relevant to our lives.
It wouldn't be painless, but an alliance willing to go to the effort could set up a single corp set up that had at least 0.5 standing will all four factions and the capability to take any of their logistics systems in as quick a time as possible. The corp could then just leave alliance and join whichever relevant militia whenever one of your logistics systems was jammed.
It wouldn't take the most manpower in the worst either - five or six dreads can take down a bunker in one siege cycle if memory serves and the whole scenario predicates on there being a cyno jammer, so your dreads are relatively safe. Then the issue is just getting the five-to-ten man hours of plexing done, but at least you know you're doing it ~for the good of the alliance~
Whoops. I guess I'm out of the loop after having only resubbed a couple weeks ago. Doesn't change the opportunity to grief one side or the other in the conflicts.
I'm surprised that no one has pointed out the obvious about the cyno jammers. So far, no one other than FW care what a control bunker does and who has "control" in that system (I use control loosely.) If CCP all of the sudden implemented a cyno jammer to FW that fucks over EVERYONE yet only those inside FW can do something about it, no one would let that fly. 0.0 alliances are NOT faction warfare, and the entire game focus would shift (without a clutch) if they were forced to join FW. Let me say this again, 0.0 is NOT low sec, so there should be no reason to force them to join low sec. The opposite is true as well.
If I want to travel through a system with my carrier, and the ONLY way for that to happen is for me to change my allegiance to some other group, that doesn't fly. Even in 0.0 that doesn't work, if I want to travel through a cyno jammed system in 0.0, I go shoot the cyno jammer, simple as that. I don't have to be part of "group X" so that my guns can target the $^%& thing. Fuck that.
Or the officer fit Mach that committed seppuku to CONCORD in Ossogur pre-DRF contract rather than die to that particular FW fleet...are you trying to say PL is bad at this game, we already have shadoo for that thanks.
Your greatest strengths are that you are below the notice of most 0.0groups precisely because there is no reason to put you in the hurt locker as of now; and you aren't necessarily conditioned by propaganda that any group is impervious. Both of these traits can easily become weaknesses if 0.0 players realize that akhmon's farming alt just became his alliance's Mata Hari and you start suffering from the meta gaming that is played in 0.0 or you're camped in while the latest TEST aid flotilla rolls through on it's way to SMA or what have you.I mean of course we can't hold a candle to PL or groups like them, but I think FW guys have shown we also wont just roll over and play dead when someone invades our turff.
I think the idea behind this whole thing all shit talking and ego boosting aside is simple for the reason you stated. Null sec entities are not FW, that in a short is your answer.
Part of the problem with low sec, is much of it's ISK resources can be controlled by null sec entities that have the ability to easily project their power into low sec with a simple cyno chain if need be. If these changes go live, it will allow FW guys to potentially have more control over their own areas of low sec. If it makes life harder for null sec entities then so be it. It's about time it took a bit more work to move your forces around the map at will.
One of the biggest reasons null sec sucks in the minds of many including myself, is there is no ability for smaller groups to project their power locally because they will always get curb stomped by the NAP trains that can easily move across the map at will. Perhaps giving us scrubs in low sec the ability to use things like cyno jamers will be a start or a test to see if it's potentially a way to allow smaller groups to control their space with out this NAP train or that one stomping them off the map.
After all CCP did say they intended to use FW as a testing bed for null sec Sov.. Perhaps CCP is trying to test the waters to see if they can come up with the ability to let smaller less organized groups control space with out total destruction. Where better to test something of this nature than FW space being only 1 of 2 sides can ever take any system?
Bro if you really think a FW fleet can hold off one of the big alliances you are in for a shock , you can kill them once , twice , they will keep coming until your dead .
You aren't getting 1vs1 against them if they feel they are threatened in logistics they will bring everyone and there mother ,they will camp you, infiltrate your corps , steal your members grief them etc etc..
We don't have to hold off your fleets. We already control the systems and you can't take them from us. Your fleets can annoy us or run us off a bunker bust.. However regardless 1 side of either faction will always own any given system in FW space. Meaning either side can potentially cyno jam a system and the only way you can stop it is to join the opposing faction to try and control a system. Even then.. your own Militia members can cyno jam the system.
Essentially I'm sure you can if you put your minds to it create alt corps with-in FW to do your bidding. However it will require a great deal of time & effort to do so. This is what you guys seem to keep over looking. Our Sov isn't based on set timers.. We fight all hours of the day & night with no pre-determined battles that are controlled by timers.
I can go to sleep in a system controlled by my Militia and in extreme case wake up and it's in the hands of the other side.
Nope, they're not. FW is, in the end, a cloaked PVE setup. It promises you free shootie at bad guys, but the core mechanic as far as CCP is concerned is running missions. FW by its nature of diseperate goals (make money take systems what are hos) and the fact that one of the major sources of pilots has zero organization (the militia) is stuck in a bad place without nearly the effective organization or logistics of a 0.0 group. This will hurt them badly in a clash, as they will not be able to match the ability to replace losses or the mobilized fleet numbers.
What you fail to understand is that they don't need to create alt corps. They already have tons of alt corps. It's not a matter of needing a lot of pilots either, you can revert a system with a few dedicated jewers and the time to work unmolested. You don't need to be militia to fight militia; you can do a main fleet deployment to cover that. 20 guys and a 300 man deployment to cover them on the weekends.
The extreme case if a FW power were to cynojam nullsec bloc logistics systems would be waking up to fuck off-massive camps of every gate in the system ganking everyone who tries to enter the system while a group of 200 guys in an alt-corp does ten man hours of work in five minutes.
It doesn't work that way.. I lied, we do have timers in a sense..
Your numbers can't make plexes spawn any faster or cause them to run any faster than 1 guy flying a Rifter.To capture a system it requires a min of about 6 hours time commitment assuming it wasn't already contested by the other side causing you more time needed. You simply can't get around the time investment needed to capture FW systems and anything you can do today can be undone the next day or ever hours later.
FW sov with plexing creates a very fluid battle zone when both sides focus on plexing and requires your side to have active members in your space at all hours of the day..
Yeah, that was actually my bad for implying that it is just the man-hours that you need to put in. There are around 30 plexes that spawn around the warzone in a random fashion, and once one is finished it respawns in another system - Amarr plexes spawning in systems that are occupied by the Amarr and the same for all other factions. It's not impossible to target a specific system, but it can be a slog if the spawn gods disfavor you.
That said, yes it would be possible for Goons to hellcamp Kamela or wherever, given the whole shitload of dudes that you have. I'm told that you've got FCs that can even make that fun or at least bearable. It is also true that we are used to plexing systems out from under people and certainly for the first few ops, we'd have the home advantage. At the end of the day, no one will ever win a 'my alliance > your alliance' debate on a forum - given how easy it is to leave an alliance/corp, anyone in that corp/alliance must have decided that they're in the best damn corp/alliance in the game
Cynojamming lowsec systems will never be implemented.
/discussion
Then at that point the nullboys would have well and truly earned their passage.
And remember that they're the faction cynojammers, the kind that keep you out of hisec. So long as their logistics are all in-faction, there's no reason for a militia to not jam a system.
K(awaii)ugu(u)tsumen
Why would you assume that we thought you cared? Or that we even care about FW beyond the fact that our JF's have to cross a handful of your systems on the way to doing something else?
The Supers are there to make it hard for you to use the accel gate. As far as having a corp in militia to tinker with shit, that's what alts and alt corps are for. Hell if the Datacore change ends up working as intended then FW will generate enough income to justify moving moving an existing highsec isk making alt.
I'm not even saying this is a bad thing for FW guys to do, just detailing what other posters meant when saying that 0.0 blocs would do whatever is necessary, however boring, to secure their logistics. Hell, it sounds like more fun than fueling jump bridges.
Well, nullsec alliances have the manpower and the ability to do it, but do you seriously think they're gonna bother? Most alliances can't even get 60 out of 100 in local into fleet. You're talking about an almost extreme level of organization for something that's just silly to bother with to begin with.
On top of that, there really aren't that many systems that will be affected by this. Quite a lot of nullsec deployment systems aren't even involved in FW. If you think you need to do logistics thru Black Rise, get a fucking clue.
Even if CCP go ahead with things as already announced, it won't change much.
Every war in 0.0 just screeched to a halt, and every potential war is likely to flame out in 2 weeks or less.
Faction warfare and empire are all thats left on the menu, hope that clears the situation up a bit.
Grasping at straws much?
Supers are shit against subcaps and would get dreaded to dust.
Do we really think this is true? Post-Dominion, sovereignty has changed through war like 3+ times in every goddamn region in the game except Deklein and Tribute. Dominion sovereignty mechanics are really fucking stupid and bad but they have never been stagnant. (Although every few months we see a wave of people claiming they will be.)
Remember when I said something about how wars never lasted post-sov welp, and you said something about "fuck you, wars shouldn't last for months, are you crazy?!"?
Cynojammers should be removed from eve online /discuss
Delve Goons should be removed from Delve /discuss
Weekend warrior may or may not really apply. By pvp lite, I simply mean essentially consequence-free pvp. Losing systems doesn't really *mean* anything for the militias. Nothing changes, no capability in the system is lost. It's just a rotating door, a mechanic to force people into the same arena to fight. I don't mean "unskilled" pvp, I'm not talking kill-count, or anything like that. I simply mean that when a 0.0 alliance girds its loins and pushes towards an offensive or defensive goal, there are high digital stakes and high digital consequences for failure.
From a sheer "I want to jump in my ship and pew pew" standpoint, FW is absolutely brilliant. You can compete or participate at nearly any level; solo, small gang, blob...low skill, unorganized mess or themed fleet. If you die, you reship and go at it again. The consequence for failure is as high or low as you choose it to be based on the ship you throw into the fray. In 0.0, a shifting border means lost/gained assets, lost/gained logistical options, lost/gained strategic options. The consequences for failure are much higher, and so the necessity to run properly organized fleets, grow skilled fleet commanders, and have effective doctrine becomes much higher. And again, to avoid confusion, that doesn't mean there aren't skilled FW pilots and FCs...it just means that the only "benefit" of being a skilled FC with a skilled fleet in FW is a gratuitous k/d ratio (or, it's a reward unto itself) and the only "consequence" of being unskilled is either lost ships or more carefully chosen fights (or, not much consequence at all.)
When I say pvp-lite, I'm merely addressing what's at stake.
npc stations, go wage a sov war shooting structures at 10% dilation and call it a fun game
We turn 10% tidi when undocking. I think the servers are trying to tell us we're fat.
We're pretty much fucked then, no clue where we'd get an unending firehose of frigate, destroyer and battlebadger pilotsDelurking to try and prove that not all factional warfare folks are mongoloids.
To translate this into non-mouthbreather, Factional Warfare sovereignty is actually tied to a series of complexes, each of which has a limit on the size of ship that can come in. The smallest of them are minors, which only allow in T1 frigates (including faction and pirate), destroyers and industrials (let me tell you about my combate Iteron V).
After orbitting a central object for 10, 15 or 20 minutes depending on the size of the complex (and holy fuck enough with the things that can be shortened to 'plexes'
After your lot has 3000 VPs in a system - note that this means at least 5 man-hours of EVE PvE for it's own sake, since you're not getting paid - you then get the sheer pleasure of shooting a static object for little to no true gain until maybe the summer patch.
All of that is a long winded way of saying that AFK bombers probably wouldn't grief us as much as our own sovereignty system already does, but if you come down in Thrashers and manage to force us off plexes, it makes us do the longer ones for no extra VP or isk.
or the stamina to perform some sort of 'hellcamp' of the required systems
Also poor NAP doesn't seem to realize what 'PvP' with an 0.0 alliance entails, since he's still thinking about shooting ships and not about what it means to have a horde of Goons in his comms channels
Unleash the durr.
Cyno jamming lowsec systems is probably a non-starter, but just for fun who would care if they did (in the short term). The people who actually do JF logistics are universally reviled as bloodsuckers who make jew gold on the backs of their hard working alliance mates. When one of them loses JF to stupid shit (shadowandlight) no one goes "oh dear, thats terrible." They laugh and dont give a shit.
And as far as CFC is concerned, they control EC- so why spend hours a day flying around a lowsec structure when you can be in a "roaming" gang that clears the bubbles/rabble out of EC- on their way to somewhere else?
If you kill enough of them they stop fighting - Gen. Curtis Lemay
Fear the KKM
i hear they aint just gonna limit it to the HQ of the militia
derp derp
CCP said in response to a question at the fan fest panel that the cyno jammers would only jam members of FW, has this changed? or are you all just sperging over a non issue.
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