Gun Control discussion - Post ITT every time there's another senseless shooting

[madp0k]

On a serious note, he managed to buy all the guns legally, if you are able to buy an ar-15 for self defense, what the fuck are you defending against? I'm pretty sure if you could buy shooters legally here in England, you would have a few more of these types of things. We have few shootings now and again that make the news but very few tend to go for the mass murder option (ie more than 4 or 5 killed) and none to my knowledge are young men (under 30).

edit, sorry our one in Hungerford was 27 I think

[Grath]

The point I'm trying to make is these mass shootings are a almost solely US based atrocity,

What facts are you basing this assumption on?

Is it because you see the US shooting sprees on TV?

Or am I blind to international news or something?

Yes, thats exactly what it is, or rather, you're blind and the Global Media doesn't help. Don't you remember the norwegian or sweedish guy who shot all those kids last year? The only ones you hear about are the ones that can be sensationalized, and sad to say most things about the US are globally sensationalized, including murders and killings that go largely unnoticed in many parts of the world, or downplayed.

Theres parts of Africa where if you told them only 16 people were killed they think you were whining, and even parts of the baltics where if you told them that only 16 people died they'd talk to you about your amazing good luck.

Only it wasn't in one of those places.


It was here.


So you see it, and hear it more than you would if it were some dickhead in some theater in Chili.

[Frederick Garrish]

Well, my point is I talked to a guy who lives in Norway. That Norwegian shooting was the only time he can remember something like that happening. New Zealand guy, same thing, nothing in his recent memory. England, same thing.

In mexico, mass killings take place all the time, because of drug cartels trying to establish dominance and all that.
Terrorist do suicide bombings cuz they think their god is better
African ethnic cleansing cuz those other africans are less than people.

USA? DC Sniper, Columbine Shooting, Mall shootings, High school shootings, why? No purpose mass killings happen all the time

I'm not trying to say I'm educated in this. Am trying to see if I'm being stupid about this not being a right to bear arms issue.

[Night]

Statistics are your friend. The US has a significantly higher population than any of the individual countries you mention, which means more chances for somebody to be a lunatic. Mass shooting incidents actually happen with about the same frequency in Europe as they do here, at least in time. (Though most of them get about six lines in a small column in the papers, they do happen.) I'd have to do some ~maths~ to work out a per-capita-over-time and figure out who's actually got it worse, but you should beware your confirmation bias.

Also, general background is lacking, so, here are some useful things to remember. Mass shooters are generally poor marksman and poor at followup. For this reason their effective lethality is low, and they tend to wound about five people for each one they kill. (Exception being Virginia Tech.)

Descriptions available from witnesses now say 10 to 20 shots. Even allowing for a 100% deviation, that still means 40 shots injured 50 people and killed 12 people. That obviously doesn't add up. There's also the statement that he tossed some kind of gas or smoke bomb before opening fire.

If anybody's ever been on an opening-night movie, you can probably guess what happens when you have a lot of smoke in a crowded theater. Everybody stampedes for the exits, people fall, get hurt, get stepped on. We don't know at this point what can be attributable to the crowd and what to the shooter, but I'll bet and lay odds that a noticeable fraction of the people who got hurt were trampled rather than shot.

[Hilmar Keller]

Abloo bloo England's better because we don't have the ability to shoot each other.

America's problem is that everybody isn't armed. You go next door to blast your neighbor because he's been balling your wife, he might have a baseball bat or a cleaver lying around but probably not a gun. Gun ownership isn't incredibly prevalent in the United States, and to have a gun on you in public requires a special permit.

This is a shame, because in Switzerland if you go next door to blast your neighbor because he's been balling your wife, guess what? Dude's got an assault rifle. You can count on it because every adult male in the country is issued one. Go ahead and guess which country has the lower incidence of shooting deaths.

As Heinlein said, "An armed society is a polite society."

[Stronke]

We had a terrible shooting last year in Holland in a mall where some fucktard decided to go postal and mow down anyone walking around the mall.


These incidents happen anywhere but i, personaly, do believe that because it is so easy to get guns in the state there is a lot more violence involing guns.


I am very glad we are not able to buy guns in Holland. The excuse you yankies love to use when devending there gun law is that they say "guns don't kill people, people kill people". But when your country is filled with retards you might want to rethink that policy.

[Hilmar Keller]

I am very glad we are not able to buy guns in Holland. The excuse you yankies love to use when devending there gun law is that they say "guns don't kill people, people kill people". But when your country is filled with retards you might want to rethink that policy.

I'm not disputing that we have gun nuts (we definitely do) who have IQs lower than their preferred caliber, or that we have a lot of trigger-happy morons dying for an excuse to blast their neighbor (zombie apocalypse, damsel in distress, Arab invasion, etc). But Americans are fond of guns because it's how we won our independence: Armed people had the power to overthrow an armed government. Had the thirteen colonies been disarmed (like much of Europe), there really would've been no option whatsoever. People are comforted by the idea that an oppressive or unworthy regime can either be changed by democratic means, or if not, forcibly removed by the armed masses.

I'm liberal in every sense of the word except for gun control (which is kind of ironic, since bearing arms is guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, much like freedom of speech and separation of church and state). The occasional public killing spree is an unfortunate bi-product of this, but I also think it's a symptom of other problems in America (class disparity, lacking mental health services) and not necessarily the sole fault of Remington and Colt.

[Wusti]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Ar...cre_(Australia)

35 dead.

Having said that as far as I know its the only one. I also think Mike Moore did that Bowling for Columbine thing which quoted some stats on a per capita basis - no idea how good bad or ugly his figures were.

[Don Peyote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauhajoki_school_shooting

Massacres happen everywhere - but not as often as in the US.

[Grim]

Guns dont kill people. People kill people. Except when the gun is controlled by a robot, in which case it does kill people.

[Don Peyote]

Guns dont kill people. People kill people. Except when the gun is controlled by a robot, in which case it does kill people.

but who built that robot, and programmed it for killing people? A person

[Hilmar Keller]

Guns dont kill people. People kill people. Except when the gun is controlled by a robot, in which case it does kill people.

Let me tell you about Prime Directives.

[Mira Z]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauhajoki_school_shooting

Massacres happen everywhere - but not as often as in the US.

Someone going crazy with a gun isn't a uniquely American problem, obviously. What does seem to be unique is the reaction afterwards. Dunblane, for example, triggered a review on the availability of handguns and significantly stricter gun controls. In America, the response seems to always tied up complaints about eroding constitutional rights.

The second ammendment really would be better off repealed. It made sense in the 18th century when they were worried about the British showing up again and, say, burning Washington to the ground. Today, America's military spending is pretty much bigger than everyone else's combined - A citizens militia is not really necessary.

[Don Peyote]

Someone going crazy with a gun isn't a uniquely American problem, obviously. What does seem to be unique is the reaction afterwards. Dunblane, for example, triggered a review on the availability of handguns and significantly stricter gun controls. In America, the response seems to always tied up complaints about eroding constitutional rights.

The second ammendment really would be better off repealed. It made sense in the 18th century when they were worried about the British showing up again and, say, burning Washington to the ground. Today, America's military spending is pretty much bigger than everyone else's combined - A citizens militia is not really necessary.

Agreed, wholeheartedly - it's a relic of a more dangerous time, when bandits might turn up on your doorstep, or the big bad British might come by land or by sea (we won't, we promise - our Navy has been hobbled and our Army is being cut so you're safe). No-one in America owns an automatic weapon for any reason other than killing other people.

[Manfred Hideous]

Someone going crazy with a gun isn't a uniquely American problem, obviously. What does seem to be unique is the reaction afterwards. Dunblane, for example, triggered a review on the availability of handguns and significantly stricter gun controls. In America, the response seems to always tied up complaints about eroding constitutional rights.

The second ammendment really would be better off repealed. It made sense in the 18th century when they were worried about the British showing up again and, say, burning Washington to the ground. Today, America's military spending is pretty much bigger than everyone else's combined - A citizens militia is not really necessary.

Mira, you're saying that governments have by and large become more benevolent towards their own people? I can see America becoming a police state in my kid's lifetime.

Lest anyone forget when the revolution started WE WERE FUCKING BRITISH. King George was our king. We're not cautious about your government; we've always been interested in keeping our own in line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_(Australia)

35 dead.

Having said that as far as I know its the only one. I also think Mike Moore did that Bowling for Columbine thing which quoted some stats on a per capita basis - no idea how good bad or ugly his figures were.

But what is your population? For every nut you have, we have ten. It's simple numbers.

Agreed, wholeheartedly - it's a relic of a more dangerous time, when bandits might turn up on your doorstep, or the big bad British might come by land or by sea (we won't, we promise - our Navy has been hobbled and our Army is being cut so you're safe). No-one in America owns an automatic weapon for any reason other than killing other people.

First, I'll be surprised if he had an "automatic" weapon. So far as I know we've never EVER had a massacre using truly automatic weapons since strict controls on them were instituted. You can still get one but it's expensive and the background check is about as intrusive as getting a TS clearance.

And like I said, it's out government we have to mistrust.

It's not even a right/left problem. I know tone of people who vote left and most of them believe in gun ownership. We might disagree on the control levels but rarely to I find an American who wants a total ban. Because prohibition works, right?

Americans are different that Europeans, especially on this subject. Kinda like Russians are nationally paranoid about their neighbors (also with justification).

[jimmychrist]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Ar...cre_(Australia)

35 dead.

Having said that as far as I know its the only one. I also think Mike Moore did that Bowling for Columbine thing which quoted some stats on a per capita basis - no idea how good bad or ugly his figures were.

I think he's a bit of a gas bag, but as far as I know no one has caught him using made up statistics or anything.

[madp0k]

I was just saying that our lot are lazy and usually can't be arsed to go the of getting a gun and just stab each other to death outside the kebab shop instead. If you could get one in Tesco's when getting your weekly shop it might be a bit different, but to my knowledge we don't get many young men going proper fucking postal and making a day of it. If your keeping them to overthrow your goverment when they act a bit cuntish, it just seems a reason from a bygone year imo. We all have our nutters, we have some proper fucktards I promise you, so we just make sure only the proper ones (who would do it anyway -gun shop or no gun shop) by making it a bit harder for them, thats all.

[Don Peyote]

The US gov't is already batshit insane hurry up and rise up WOLVERINES

[jimmychrist]

Also good luck to you and your militia going up against the government that outspends all other nations' military budgets put together. I'm sure your AR-15 and your Dodge Durango will really tip the scales in the case of Patriots United v. 1st Air Cav and their Amazing Apaches

[Hilmar Keller]

Ah yes, Red Dawn: Justifying teenage gun ownership since 1984.

[Fartman]

As Heinlein said, "An armed society is a polite society."

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/...271/story.html

[Night]

I think he's a bit of a gas bag, but as far as I know no one has caught him using made up statistics or anything.

Made up, no, massaged, loose factual association, generally bad research...

However I am in favor of restrictions on the other things this fucker had like a full body armor and tear gas. Where the hell did he get this stuff?

Tear gas is restricted, but it's also not impossible to make in your garage if you google a recipe. The guy wasn't a convicted felon. He had a perfectly clean record except for a traffic citation. He was a PhD student. There's really not much that says "don't sell this guy a vest" that we know of yet. That could change, of course.

[Scroobius Pip]

Here's a stat for you. There's much more 'probability' of some faggot killing me & my kids whilst watching a flic with a gun than rushing the aisles in a stab vest & Bowie knife. Tosspot would be in pieces after the first swing. Lets do some math.

Is the said 'faggot', regardless of reason (alien invasion, Ruskies, Afro/Judeaic conspiracy) less or more likely to be able to get hold of a gun if a) Barring the black market you have to jump through hoops to get a basic (& probably shonky) firearm or b) Its a like a basic right because like the government might infringe your rights or something?

I'm pretty dumb so help me out here.

Guns don't stop corrupt governments. People, usually with the help of other governments do.

Following the argument against to its conclusion would have had 150 people dead due the fact that you would have had 300 fuckwits toting to the pictures 'defending their rights'.

Why doesn't somebody Google how many people get accidentally shot in 1st world countries due to home gun ownership, including kids. If that number is >1 than its too many & utterly avoidable.

[Fartman]

if you're that worried about your safety in a country that has private gun ownership don't go to countries that have private gun ownership.

seems pretty simple to me.

[Manfred Hideous]

Also good luck to you and your militia going up against the government that outspends all other nations' military budgets put together. I'm sure your AR-15 and your Dodge Durango will really tip the scales in the case of Patriots United v. 1st Air Cav and their Amazing Apaches

Of course it's not like a significant portion of the military in possession of those very weapons would join the cause (if it ever came to that)? Military types only follow orders and never remember the constitution they pedged an oath to uphold, right? capable officers never ever turn coat on their government when that government violates its trust.

Washington is named after such a turncoat.

Here's a stat for you. There's much more 'probability' of some faggot killing me & my kids whilst watching a flic with a gun than rushing the aisles in a stab vest & Bowie knife. Tosspot would be in pieces after the first swing. Lets do some math

HOW MUCH more likelyhood?

Take away the mob/gang killings and what is left? Is your chance of being killed by a nut that much higher her vs elsewhere? The vast majority of our violence is less about guns and more about supplying drugs and prostitutes. Remove the black market and maybe we'd have Amsterdam levels of violence.

Not that that would stop people for finding a reason to condemn us.

[Scroobius Pip]

Of course it's not like a significant portion of the military in possession of those very weapons would join the cause (if it ever came to that)? Military types only follow orders and never remember the constitution they pedged an oath to uphold, right? capable officers never ever turn coat on their government when that government violates its trust.

Washington is named after such a turncoat.


HOW MUCH more likelyhood?

Take away the mob/gang killings and what is left? Is your chance of being killed by a nut that much higher her vs elsewhere? The vast majority of our violence is less about guns and more about supplying drugs and prostitutes. Remove the black market and maybe we'd have Amsterdam levels of violence.

Not that that would stop people for finding a reason to condemn us.

Should have plenty of weapons at 'The Peoples' disposal in that case - my original point entirely (well, partly)

I don't know exactly how much of a difference it would make but applying basic fuzzy logic even the most ardent gun enthusiast must be able to make the leap from 'more gun availability - more chance of use......'

PS. I'm not condemning anyone. I am however flabbergasted at the lengths that some clearly intelligent people will go to to justify ownership though.

[Scroobius Pip]

if you're that worried about your safety in a country that has private gun ownership don't go to countries that have private gun ownership.

seems pretty simple to me.

Thats some good input right there. I should just STFU.

Consider me schooled

[Manfred Hideous]

Should have plenty of weapons at 'The Peoples' disposal in that case - my original point entirely (well, partly)

I don't know exactly how much of a difference it would make but applying basic fuzzy logic even the most ardent gun enthusiast must be able to make the leap from 'more gun availability - more chance of use......'

PS. I'm not condemning anyone. I am however flabbergasted at the lengths that some clearly intelligent people will go to to justify ownership though.

Funny thing is I'm not a gun owner. I have been in the past but I never shoot for recreation these days so it was just gathering dust. Both my boys are well trained in shooting safety (and one has competed) and in my opinion that's part of the problem; people don't instruct their kids on... well anything anymore.

I don't deny at all that more availability means higher chance of use. what I question is how much worse off is the US in violent crimes vis a vis other industrialized nations when organized crime is adjusted for. I suspect it's higher but I also suspect it's not quite the emergency many people (especially out of the US) think it is. I have German friends that think we literally hear gunfire all day. Sure in downtown atlanta (where I commute to daily), that does happen, though it almost always happens to people of opposing sides in a prohibition battle.

That's not exactly accurate. I do hear a bit of gunfire in hunting seasons. I live in the country. I'm not at all bothered by it as out here in the boonies, most parents do teach their kids gun safety.

What it boils down to for me is that the additional risk is worth it. I believe the risk is overblown.

[Bill Schwartzski]

The issue, as with all things, is education.

I grew up in the countryside. Around guns. A *lot* of guns. I am a responsible firearm owner. I don't belong to the NRA, and I don't own anything capable of taking out large amounts of people. From a very early age, it was all but beaten into me that a firearm is one of the biggest responsibilities you can ask for in terms of personal survival. I think trying to have sex with your grade school teacher was a lesser crime than pointing an unloaded gun at your friend in jest. Do I lick the steaming cock of gun culture and jizz at gun shows with big fat "I'm from the internet" dudes showing me their latest way to empty 100 rounds into a living thing? No.

My father was a bow hunter. He refused to shoot his prey with a gun. He spent his entire life teaching people that the bullet does more than kill - it changes the way a person thinks about something. This was a critical lesson, and unfortunately America's detachment from these vital lessons are essentially eroding any sense at all the fanatics have in gun ownership.

I think Michael Moore's point in Bowling for Columbine about firearms in America boils down to this: we just have a lot of underlying hate for our neighbors. It is almost unavoidable as we both a) took this country through bloody and dramatic means and b) part of our creed is not turning someone away just because they're from somewhere else. (see: Statue of Liberty) Our culture is conflict. Even some of our best music and art is derived from conflict. Liberty, as a concept, historically has a very, very, very bloody undercurrent. A national of what, 200 million adults, and we are so hopelessly addicted to conflict that our entire body politic is almost divided 50/50 right down the center?

Canadians have as many guns per captia, don't they? But they like each other. I once heard that a Canadian conservative is what we in the states call a liberal. It says more about how we see each other than our politics.

[Grim]

Guns are a part of American culture. I know lot of people who own guns, and most of them use them to go hunting, and have fun at the shooting range. None of them have gone on shooting rampages against non-arabs.

Its ridiculous to outlaw or heavily restrict guns. This guy appears to be have had a normal background prior to going batshit crazy and killing a dozen people.

[Aurora148]

unless you can invent a giant gun magnet which sweeps all guns up from everywhere simultaneously, then the notion of gun control in the US is completely pointless because you simply have too many in circulation to ever make it feasible. Even then if somehow this giant gun magnet worked, then your border with Mexico makes it almost impossible to stop more being brought in.

You guys are just beyond saving unfortunately.

[jimmychrist]

Its ridiculous to outlaw or heavily restrict guns. This guy appears to be have had a normal background prior to going batshit crazy and killing a dozen people.

I read an article about a psychiatrist somewhere in gun-control crazy Europe who had studied the exact kind of people who are at risk for snapping like this. He found that a surprising number of them had planned to carry out some kind of act of agression but when confronted with the difficulty of aquiring a gun it had proven a hurdle too difficult to climb. It turns out that drive and determination are not traits you usually find in the deeply unstable.

[Rer]

"Well that escalated quickly" is like the exact opposite of this thread, I'm surprised people are being all civil about this rather than bible thumping or ~Elite Gun Controlling~

[Frederick Garrish]

Lots of good points here. Glad to see a good conversation. I guess they are more frequent then I thought in other countries, though obviously still a plague over here.

This is the second time I've heard this, and if it's true, think it throws out all doubt that gun control is the problem, the fact that Switzerland citizens are issued automatic weapons. Do you live in Switzerland Hilmar? If you do, what makes Switzerland work, cuz out of all the shootings linked here, I have not seen one Switzerland shooting

[Fartman]

Switzerland citizens are issued automatic weapons [...] I have not seen one Switzerland shooting

I think you just answered your own question

[Wusti]

Why has no-one quoted fact and figures on a population adjusted basis yet? (IE PER CAPITA MANNY!!! That's what it means!!!)

That ought to tell you something and from memory more US Citizens die to gun crime PER CAPITA than any other Western democracy by a massive factor. Not just in massacres but every day crime as well - and tbh I think that is a far more telling basis for judgement than random massacres.

[Don Peyote]

Post your opinions about guns and shooting things and not shooting things and other firearm related stuff, and your musings on the human condition, here

I fucked up the merge :hugecripes:

[Manfred Hideous]

Would you believe Wiki has the stats?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers

The americas (north and south) have a population os 913 Million and change
Europe has 738 Million and change.

Americas have 116 incidents or one per 7.85 million people
Europe has 99 or one per 7.45 million people.

My math sucks but I'm thinking that's within 5% of each other by population. Ignoring that, how bad can you say a problem really is when your chances of being in the area (let alone a victim) is one in 7+ million? Seriously, to let this sort of incident effect your day to day life or concerns is cowardly. I take more chances riding my Harley commuting to work. Lots more because Atlanta has some seriously shitty traffic.

Some friends and I are going to Batman today and I'm riding there. Wish me luck.

[Hilmar Keller]

Lots of good points here. Glad to see a good conversation. I guess they are more frequent then I thought in other countries, though obviously still a plague over here.

This is the second time I've heard this, and if it's true, think it throws out all doubt that gun control is the problem, the fact that Switzerland citizens are issued automatic weapons. Do you live in Switzerland Hilmar? If you do, what makes Switzerland work, cuz out of all the shootings linked here, I have not seen one Switzerland shooting

I don't live there, but people in Switzerland do get shot. What makes somebody fanatical enough to shoot a bunch of people they barely know (if at all) is complicated and varies by situation. I don't know for certain that there's never been a shooting massacre in Switzerland, but you're probably right that there hasn't. Their shooting mortality rate by capita, by the way, is still relatively high (slightly higher than France and significantly higher than Canada or Norway - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate) but Switzerland stands as a counter to the argument that more guns = more shootings.

[Grath]

Would you believe Wiki has the stats?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers

The americas (north and south) have a population os 913 Million and change
Europe has 738 Million and change.

Americas have 116 incidents or one per 7.85 million people
Europe has 99 or one per 7.45 million people.

My math sucks but I'm thinking that's within 5% of each other by population. Ignoring that, how bad can you say a problem really is when your chances of being in the area (let alone a victim) is one in 7+ million? Seriously, to let this sort of incident effect your day to day life or concerns is cowardly. I take more chances riding my Harley commuting to work. Lots more because Atlanta has some seriously shitty traffic.

Some friends and I are going to Batman today and I'm riding there. Wish me luck.

No but wait i thought guns were dangerous and bad for people.

Here's a stat for you. There's much more 'probability' of some faggot killing me & my kids whilst watching a flic with a gun than rushing the aisles in a stab vest & Bowie knife.

Fuck you a man took a plane out with a box cutter, and killed every single person on board, or wait, 4 planes actually. You know why? Nobody on that plane had a gun.

[Scroobius Pip]

No but wait i thought guns were dangerous and bad for people.


Fuck you a man took a plane out with a box cutter, and killed every single person on board, or wait, 4 planes actually. You know why? Nobody on that plane had a gun.

Really, that's your argument for mass gun ownership? Unless some dude with a box cutter hijacks 4 planes & flies them into the cinema I'm in whats your fucking point?

PS Boo fucking hoo, what a crappy cheap shot. Also - fuck you too.

[Manfred Hideous]

No but wait i thought guns were dangerous and bad for people.


Fuck you a man took a plane out with a box cutter, and killed every single person on board, or wait, 4 planes actually. You know why? Nobody on that plane had a gun.

In all fairness to those four flights, nobody had ever done that before so they can be excused for thinking they'd be rescued by Delta on the tarmac. Case in point is the last plane. They found out via air phones what happened and they managed to save hundreds more lives. Anyone breaking out a box cutter today would at the least be taken down ans were I there, they'd be chatting with Allah.

[Stronke]

No but wait i thought guns were dangerous and bad for people.


Fuck you a man took a plane out with a box cutter, and killed every single person on board, or wait, 4 planes actually. You know why? Nobody on that plane had a gun.

Fuck you that was because everyone was a giagantic pussy.

[Stronke]

I find it sad it takes holding a gun for most people to have some balls

[madp0k]

Shit how did this become my thread, Now all this is my fault, some fucks are going to pay for this, now where did I leave my bloody AK, oh its not an AK its my bong, fuck it im going to have a donut and a wank instead.

[Hilmar Keller]

Shit how did this become my thread, Now all this is my fault, some fucks are going to pay for this, now where did I leave my bloody AK, oh its not an AK its my bong, fuck it im going to have a donut and a wank instead.

You are not alone~

[madp0k]

unless you can invent a giant gun magnet which sweeps all guns up from everywhere simultaneously, then the notion of gun control in the US is completely pointless because you simply have too many in circulation to ever make it feasible. Even then if somehow this giant gun magnet worked, then your border with Mexico makes it almost impossible to stop more being brought in.

I think I read somewhere that the mexican goverment were moaning of the guns coming over the border from the states and not the other way for obvious reasons, so im not sure what the gun laws are in mexico. I imagine the amount of drugs that come over its considered a fair swap by the americans. But thats the drug issue again, which as already pointed out would probably be alot better if they were legalised but then its almost the exact same thing we are discussing here about guns. Legalising drugs will never happen though just as outlawing guns won't.

[Grath]

Really, that's your argument for mass gun ownership? Unless some dude with a box cutter hijacks 4 planes & flies them into the cinema I'm in whats your fucking point?

PS Boo fucking hoo, what a crappy cheap shot. Also - fuck you too.

How is it a cheap shot?

Guess whats on every flight now? A fucking gun, in the hands of an air marshall.

And my argument for owning a gun?


Because i want one, its my fucking right to own one, and even moreso what gives some scrub lord faggot like you the right to tell me what i can and can't own? Take your entitled sense of self worth and stuff it up your ass, and once you get it tightly lodged up there you can approach me directly and try to tell me what i can and can't do.

Its easy to sit at your house and be like 'hey you should and shouldn't be able to do X" but when asked to directly go out and enforce your own opinions suddenly you're probably not up to the task.

[Barry Zuckerkorn]

In all fairness to those four flights, nobody had ever done that before so they can be excused for thinking they'd be rescued by Delta on the tarmac. Case in point is the last plane. They found out via air phones what happened and they managed to save hundreds more lives. Anyone breaking out a box cutter today would at the least be taken down ans were I there, they'd be chatting with Allah.

Actually it has happened before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705 His goal was to crash it into the FedEx corporate head quarters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwe...es_Flight_1763
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_8969 (while rescued their plan to was to destroy the Eiffel tower to some effect)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific...es_Flight_1771

When I went through my commercial pilot training we had a class dedicated to accidents and saftey/security and the lesson was how complacency is a real killer of human life in aviation and security wise. The 9/11 hijackers were merely the first ones to truly succeed.

[Securitas]

I'm trying to imagine how it would be safer if everybody in that theater was armed with a pistol.

Oh wait, people would just be scared and shooting indiscriminately (probably at eachother.)

Giving random people in society the ability to permanently end another human life by moving your finger a couple of centimeters is not an idea that I like. Especially with assault weapons. There simply is no reason you would need an automatic or high rate of fire weapon in modern America unless you wanted to kill a large amount of people.

"Guns don't kill people, people do." Yeah, but they sure make it a hell of a lot easier.

I mean I barely trust the average American retard with a car, let alone a lethal weapon.