Magic 8-ball, should I resub for this?
edit: fuck i stole a good snipe and forgot what sniping was.
Magic 8-ball, should I resub for this?
edit: fuck i stole a good snipe and forgot what sniping was.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[spoiler="Who's that Broooooown?"]Zulu Supremacy[/spoiler]
The worst part is they didn't even try to dub over the voices. At least use a non-english version so your subtitles don't get drowned out by the original material. Like that Hitler video regarding the end of the NC with Vuk Lau as hitler, that was awesome.Originally Posted by Phey Onat
The difference is that with the general r64 nerf and the rise of technetium, there's wealth to spare in the north that allows such an approach. The south has no such thing - neo moons are a very poor substitute - so renters ARE wealth in the south. They're the local equivalent of tech moons. Silos need emptying; rent needs collecting. POSes whine about needing fuel; renters whine about standings problems, system upgrades, etc., etc. For all intents and purposes they fulfill the same roles; there are no other options in the south. Slumlording is the only way to establish the kind of alliance-level income needed to do anything worthwhile. Considering renters to be some sort of military-asset "pets" like the various "shove them in here because we need somebody to fill the space" lickspittles in the north is an erroneous assumption. Considering renters to be combat troops is like expecting your tech moons to take up arms and take the fight to the enemy. No, their job is to provide isk for your war machine, no more and no less. Even if we were still living in 2008 and dyspro/prom were fetching 120k+/unit, that'd only really change things for the owners of Delve and Querious.
I can assure you, most of the people who have to deal with rental management in the south would take a brace of tech moons in an instant over putting up with the rabbling of the tenants or the hassles of managing sov in systems four regions away from your base of operations just so you can resell that shit. Maybe BoB in its heyday liked lording over plebs, but for the modern southern powers it's more of an unfortunate financial necessity rather than any sort of emblematic lust for domination and degredation over "lessers".
I'd say that stance makes sense. I think sometimes in the south it has devolved into treating renters like true pets, and generally not caring about them. The north covets it's Tech moons and they are the most protected asset of the alliance...but the south doesn't seem to have this same attitude towards respect of the asset. You should treat them like clients, but more often than not they're treated like bums and beggars (at least by the general line members).
Also, we *took* the north we didn't already have so we could have that excess wealth. It wasn't just handed to us.
Additionally, I think the south is slowly starting to realize the freight train that is about to hit them. Form up to contest the dozens of timers that are about to be set!
A large part of the general dismissive southern attitude towards renters is that they are nigh-infinitely replaceable. There are only X number of tech moons available at any one time, so it's a zero-sum game: if you lose one, somebody else is gaining one, and if you want that income back, you need to forcibly wrench it from another party. Renters? As long as you have the space, you can almost always find tenants to fill it. Even if you lose space, you can subdivide your remaining rental territories more aggressively. One renter moves out, and the next month a new renter is installed in their place. Tenant churn goes with the territory, even during quiet periods with minimal hostile interference. People can't pay up, or they join an alliance instead of renting, or they decide another slumlord is offering them a better deal, or they decide that renting isn't working out for them for whatever reason, or a hundred other different reasons. That's simply how it goes, and it is precisely that constant turnover that makes the fastidious treatment of any particular renting entity a less-than-priority concern.
From what I've seen, long-term renters with a history of punctual payments and minimal fusses tend to get treated with some amount of consideration, but the fact is that there aren't many groups that stick around paying the bills long enough to reach such a point.
True true. I mean, I'm not saying that if TEST rented we would treat renters any differently. We hate our ratters in fountain that are members of the alliance :P
It just seems, from a business standpoint, that it may be more beneficial to treat them like clients. But, I understand what you're saying.
Yea, I'm sure WN put up alot of resistance lmao.
"It pains me to say it but you are a good poster." - Vonq
The problem with this is that though they've called in a lot of firepower, the SoCo has yet to show they really regard anything as worth dropping it all regardless of the odds. Individual corps or alliances might for a single timer, but what's the unifying factor for them all to do so?
Dreams of a grand CFC-destroying victory? The prestige of beating PL? I don't think anyone's in the fight for that, willing to risk everything for that.
This is the ideal situation with a renter, but really, how often does the landlord let the renter grow into a viable force? I'd like to hear from those "former renters" who are now legitimate bloc members in the south (since CFC doesn't do rent, IIRC). Renters who turn into decent PvPers are recruited out of their corps/alliances into the main alliance, rather than growing into their own capable ally. It might be said that you do it to yourself, by not supporting them to be independent and strong allies.
Oh, I assure you, it is a strictly business relationship. The landlord provides the space, ensures that any necessary sov upgrades are installed, and will generally do what they can to ensure that requisite standings are arranged. The renters are expected to pay the bills on time and cause a minimal amount of hassles. There's not much more to it than that. It's not a cozy little family business; it's a mass-market affair. If one transaction goes down in a flaming hellstorm for whatever reason, the bigger concern is moving onto the next sale rather than hand-wringing over the loss.
I'm sure somebody at some point tried being the nicest southern slumlord ever. I imagine their rental managers ragequit after a few months, or their CFOs had panic attacks over the loss of revenues.
Right now the southern forces look like they would be incapable of beating IRC.
[05:28:32] Damienwhat Solette > friend said, if only they didn't have those 2 falcons there, i said they have 3, and he said that just says they don't want to do anything fair, just want to be dicks about it like not normal dicks but big black huge cocks
One more thing is man. . . have you forgotten how is feel, man?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk_eTYhIs6g
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, your epic campaign to take Deklein & Fade from TCF was the stuff of legend.
Yes.
Don't forget engineering the demise of the NC.
A word of advice. Keep your carriers docked.
I always belived IRC >> CFC
nevar forget
Don't hate us just because we win win win, bro...
My blog: http://endie.net Twitter: EndiePosts
If I forget thee, O Goonfleet dot com, let my right hand forget her typing.
I thought shadoos titan was built like decades ago and hadnt died yet
dont reach young blood
The TL;DR:
One can't overstate the importance of this in the dynamics of the south.
Having never been in a renter or renting alliance, let alone in a position to see how it all works, I'm aware my viewpoint amounts pretty-much to completely talking out of my arse, but I can't help think that the only reason it works like this, is because people let it work like this.
What I mean is - sure, thats how AAA,eathX, RA, and everyone else whose ever run a renter has always done things, but as the list of viable renter organisations shortens, and as you say yourself, theres no shortage of groups wanting to do the renter thing, whats stopping you from changing it up a little bit?
At the moment, the two big renters are Solar and -A-, lets say -A- said "right, from now on your contract says you fight if we are invaded". Sure, a lot of your existing renters are going to indignantly slope off towards Solar space, but if renter 'openings' are so coveted, surely they already have their fill, and can only cram in so many more into the slots before it cuts into the renters income, at which point 'having to pitch in to defend' is a trade off for 'making a bit more money'. Anyone coming in new to you to fill the gap would just have to accept that that's how things are done now.
But as I say, I know little about all this, and I might be all manner of wrong. And hell, you folks must have whole groups of guys whose sole job is how to get the most value per deadweight renter, so I can't imagine for a second someone hasn't thought of this sort of stuff, but from the outside, it just seems the whole renter gig is stuck its ways 'just because', when it possibly doesn't have to be.
If they were willing to fight for the space, they'd just join an established alliance instead. A noteworthy amount of renting corps end up doing this after a few months of paying for the right to rat. From what I have seen - maybe this is different with Solar or something - there are not many actual, non-standings-umbrella alliances that bother renting space. I don't have much good to say regarding the extant ones that I have encountered, but clearly my :elitepvp: mirror-shades colour my perceptions on that point.
Oh, sure, there is going to come a point where people hit the effort/reward of joining a full-on military coalition, but that points going to be different for everyone.
While the thoughts still rolling around in my head, lets say a hypothetical Renter contract said "You pay us rent, we give you space, we will deploy to defend you against small-scale invasions, you aren't obligated to go on any deployments with us, or assist in minor regional conflicts. But if a major block-war occurs, we can draft you to defend, and rental fees are suspended for the duration of the draft." That doesn't sound too unreasonable for me, but then again, I play the game to pvp, others will have different mileage.
This Sath guy is making way too much sence
I'm glad to see this debate, being a current renter, so though I been adding my 2 cents a lot in +reps, thought I'd actually publically put my 2 cents in.Having never been in a renter or renting alliance, let alone in a position to see how it all works, I'm aware my viewpoint amounts pretty-much to completely talking out of my arse, but I can't help think that the only reason it works like this, is because people let it work like this.
What I mean is - sure, thats how AAA,
At the moment, the two big renters are Solar and -A-, lets say -A- said "right, from now on your contract says you fight if we are invaded". Sure, a lot of your existing renters are going to indignantly slope off towards Solar space, but if renter 'openings' are so coveted, surely they already have their fill, and can only cram in so many more into the slots before it cuts into the renters income, at which point 'having to pitch in to defend' is a trade off for 'making a bit more money'. Anyone coming in new to you to fill the gap would just have to accept that that's how things are done now.
But as I say, I know little about all this, and I might be all manner of wrong. And hell, you folks must have whole groups of guys whose sole job is how to get the most value per deadweight renter, so I can't imagine for a second someone hasn't thought of this sort of stuff, but from the outside, it just seems the whole renter gig is stuck its ways 'just because', when it possibly doesn't have to be.
Just like these conflicts can make or break real alliances, it can with renter alliances too. Step the fuck up to the plate and try to hit the homerun. This is something that's hard to do without friends, which is what leads to many alliances renting in the first place. You never know what players on the bench can do til you decide to put them on the plate. And no matter what, it improves the renter alliance. The fact of the matter, taking these players off the bench is a bonus for everyone. It's the renter's space too, they should fight for it as well, plus it will always improve those alliances one way or another.
It happens occasionally. Now if only I'd put that effort re: making sense into this paper I am supposed to be writing right now.
On the other hand, some people rent space because they just want to carebear and don't want to deal with all the bullshit CTAs and pvp requirements. They purposely pay for the right to bear their ass off and pay other people to protect the space. Pvp-minded folks find their way into any of the 100s of nullsec corps that make up the mainline sovholding alliances (or independent, npc-space pvp alliances). But the points are valid.
Going back to what Endie was saying about spreading wealth to allies and the counterpoint Sath made about there being no wealth to spread in the south - I would contend that wealth it not necessary to grow good allies. All an alliance like -A- needs to do is take young alliances, give them space and room to grow. Treat them well and help them out - help them with their services, show them how to manage and run an alliance and give them some minor financial aid here and there. Before long you'd have a crop of little alliances like the 99% who would be active and eager in their T1 drake fleets. Give them a couple years and although some will die others will streamline and their pilots will be in Maelstroms and Abaddons. But oh no, this would be too far beneath alliances like RDN, NCdot and -A-. Never could they stoop the level of helping other people who are bad at the game, instead they will shoulder the burden themselves and be brave elite space warriors fighting outnumbered isn't that so glorious of them watch them as they get overwhelmed and forgotten.
There's nothing worse than having a good idea for a post not being good enough to pull it off :negative:
They've done this in the past. See FAIL and S2N for two examples.
This is the general view of renters I think, and it comes down to a question of the effort you have to put in vs what you get from it. Getting guys in 'PvP' alliances to show up in the right ship can be a pain in the ass, so no one is gonna spend the time to make sure all renter corps / alliances know all the fits, comms, have the right standings, etc, on the off chance that a few might actually turn up for an op. Plus, for -A- their renters are mostly in Catch, Impass, Tenerifis. Do you think they are gonna come to Delve every time theres an op? I mean they could move there, but that kinda defeats the purpose of renting a system.
CTAs and requirements are just as useless with renters as they are with any other "pet".
The real issue is that somebody who knows something has to go in there and deal with noobs, and all that it entails. Make accessible and fun fleets, and people will join them. That rule applies as much to renters as anyone else.
For half a decade nullsec has been riven by the conflicting ideologies of elite wulfpax vs scrub blobs, though I think scrub blobs have arguably started to prove the dominant force. The only actual issue with getting renters in fleets is whether their masters want to embrace the scrub blob ideology, the rest is just details.
Fucking slow brain. Lorren beat me to it.
Heh. It's all good - solid rental program to keep the cash flowing, while having retarded (military) leadership to permanently lose.It happens occasionally. Now if only I'd put that effort re: making sense into this paper I am supposed to be writing right now.
Opportunity cost, man. If you do that then instead of making money off them you lose money on them. Works for northerners who don't rent anyway, doesn't work for southerners who need the income renters bring in.
That was another point I wanted to make. -A- have always been the least believable of the self-described elite. If anyone would be well-served by dropping the pretense of pound for pound superiority, it would be -A- and co.Heh. It's all good - solid rental program to keep the cash flowing, while having retarded (military) leadership to permanently lose.
Please tell me who these self-described elite alliances are? As far as I am aware, it is much more a propaganda label by the scrub lords, as you refer them to. Just because one finds the ideology of numbers being the largest dominating factor when fighting space battles, it doesn't necessary mean they see themselves as elite. Far from it, actually.
They might be flying a lot of T3's these days. But I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a lot of sources for -A- calling themselves elite? Or any other core soco entity for that matter.
And here we come to another issue. This has to be done. When Dreddit first started flying with goons, they helped us get the right fits and ships, they explained what works and what doesn't. When Xystance started the 99% he spent months trying to get them just to take the first step and grow a little. You have to have the time and energy and the members who care enough to help other. And if that's beneath you then ultimately you will fail.
Then give them better space, like maybe so of your own space duh
You have to be willing to sacrifice and give something of yourself to help others grow and become decent alliances. This is firmly ingrained in CFC culture through Goons and now TEST but virtually unheard of elsewhere.
It's not so much your words as your actions (which I have spent entirely too much time outlining in this thread.)
There's nothing worse than having a good idea for a post not being good enough to pull it off :negative:
That's a fair point. I think it's the line members who make themselves out to be superior, and that's specifically why they join those alliances they perceive as elite. The leadership does nothing to dissuade this belief, because who's going to tell their members they're actually not very good when the reason they joined is for that very delusion?
Raiden, NCDAWT, -A- (which is fucking hilarious), PL...those stand out as alliances whose line members seem to think they are "elite" spartan warriors fighting the menace of scrub blobs, some more convincingly than others.
Guys so I was thinking about this whole "war" thing
and idk what is going on really
why don't we just embrace
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
http://soundcloud.com/wattwatt/part-of-eve
lol
Very true, but some do use renting as a stepping stool because they don't have all the resources (And again friends) to have anybody want to even blue them. Should at least give the renters a chance to step up. Sandbox learning is what makes Eve. It grows players, grows corps, and grows alliances. I remember before I joined gents how scared I was of pvp. Having competant FCs and such a helpful corp (I miss you Nova) has turned me into an aggressive pvper (Aggressive, not good). A lot of these alliances don't have that. ffs, I'm pretty much the main fc (with activity, not competancy) for my alliance, and I don't even have leadership 5, wtf?!?! But what I do have here, is even though there's no sort of ship replacement program, is a bunch of players that let me welp them and come back to fleet over and over just because they have someone taking them to pvp.
Now I must put into perspective what I'm talking about adding, so you can totally understand the other side. We rent one system, You're talking about adding like 2 or 3 logi pilots and maybe 4 competant BS pilots.... (I'm prolly downgrading the numbers tbf) but being a former cfc, the power of a rifter can never be downgraded.
And not discuss how to distribute space and propperly use pets in a civilized manner.
Another carrier was killed in 319, not to Titan though.
To busy biting my first to go find the killmail.
Eh, it's the political leadership that is frankly a bigger problem. Getting everybody in the south on the same chapter, let alone page, is a problem approaching "resolving the Eurozone's financial woes" and "revitalizing North American domestic industry in a meaningful, sustainable fashion" in terms of complexity and difficulty. Military questions like "agreeing on skymarshals", "standardizing fleet concepts", and "deciding on staging systems" are frankly smalltime in comparison to that. The biggest hassle, from my perspective, is that the natural leading figure in the south, -A-, is in a weird position where they simultaneously demand preeminence in any coalition planning while rejecting any ideas of leading a coalition. They know they are a major player, and they are proud of this, but they desperately reject most of the responsibilities such a position entails. To insert a bullshit historical reference (I am a history major, after all), it's somewhat reminiscent of the United States during the interwar years: all of the power and influence on the international stage, but a refusal to entertain any of the attendant responsibility.Heh. It's all good - solid rental program to keep the cash flowing, while having retarded (military) leadership to permanently lose.
I am somewhat sympathetic to them in this regard - coalition leadership in any medium takes a particularly broken kind of human-facsimile - but the fact is that we're well past the stage where there's any element of choice in the matter. The current situation in the south will either force us to take some pages from the Goon playbook and stand together, or we'll all hang separately. That means somebody's going to have to take charge of this merry ship of fools, and everybody else is going to have to deal with it in good faith. Whether or not we'll be able to disentangle ourselves from such an arrangement in the aftermath of the hostilities is something that can be worried about then.
PL is doing nothing but telling themselves and the rest of the world how terrible they are, Raiden. was founded on the basis of "you are only as good as your next fight", so I'd say is more of a propaganda by those who needs someone to be in opposition to.
@Lorren
I can obviously only speak for Raiden. during the northern fights, but seeing as we were literally only 3 Raiden. people posting on these forums, and with some of our leaders/FC's having nice chats with other alliance leaders and FC's, I can't really see where it is we came of as elite? Was it because we fielded our supers and there was mutual chit-chat in local? Because WN. was supported by Raiden. until they literally collapsed, Ev0ke and Init. both got Tech moons in Vale handed to them where Raiden. brought the vast majority of firepower to remove sov and towers there, other blues had TS access, had Titans standing to bridge them, cynos ready. All this while trying to defend Tenal from the CFC.
We have not been as skilled as Goons when it comes to helping allies, creating a culture of allies/pets/renters/whatever showing up, I completely agree with that. I would however propose that it was as much due to the power of the alliance and therefore decision-making was held within a very small circle of people, and delegation of responsibilities was terrible. It had nothing to do with feeling elite or better than others.
EDIT: And also, of course, because the general consensus have been that numbers shouldn't be the single largest deciding factor when fighting spaceship wars. Sadly, we have been proving wrong time and time again, and CCP does not seem to encourage that viewpoint.
And what about the average CFC member, judging from the pages and pages of chest-beating in this thread? Not to be insulting but do you think any alliance in the CFC can do much of anything by themselves as a singular alliance? Any action you guys take is as a group (the CFC), made up of many alliances as a permanent pact. What would happen if you fight IRC in a 1:1 fight, assuming you would take that fight? Even the arguments against t3 ships so far have been that they are useless vs a blob. Really now, did not know that. When was the last time the CFC has fought an entity that can pull numbers to make it a 1:1 fight, and actually won? The irony in you guys calling all those groups "self-proclaimed elite" is overwhelming.
While it's clear many of you won't listen to this (or say to yourselves "cry more about blobs"), propaganda is propaganda and it would be useless to argue about who is right when both sides already have their ideals set in stone.
I don't think that anyone claims elite spartan über hellsoldar warrior skills from -A-, since an alliance with 3k+ memberbase has so many people with so many focus that it would be retarded. Also I think the last time I felt elite space spartan in AAA was when ET did some stupid shit while drunk and we had to bail him out. Those were the good old days. The dog days.
green thanks to philanthropy
You guys are welcome to disagree; I'm not going to get into some "quoting war" nor argue about what represents the "real ideology". I definitely won't say it's a closed debate, though it's definitely not one I want to have and am happy to agree to disagree.
Also, I didn't read Vik's post because he is a shitty poster. This is in response to the rest.
they seem to enjoy touting their #1 ON BATTLECLINIC status
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