make damage actually follow sig radius
problem solved
make damage actually follow sig radius
problem solved
You stop postingOriginally Posted by Opti
Bigger problem solved
(4:14:52 AM) grimbold_dengrist: all Marivauder does as a mod is post about being a mod
(11:47:38 AM) endie: If you lot don't stop that I'm moving this corp to test
I am adding to titan conversation why the hate =[[[
I question your definition of the word "adding".
There are lots of things in play.
1: The tracking nerf means that it somewhat harder to hit stuff. This is because, with Strong Drop boosters, titan pilots were already basically at their maximum DPS output on any target farther away than 20km. (I'm using an Erebus with 3 TCs here for reference.) On a double-painted battleship, the nerf is only going to reduce a titan's DPS output by ~15% and against an unpainted battleship the nerf is going to reduce a titan's DPS output by ~25%. (I'm generalized here but you get the point.) That isn't that big of a nerf, but in real terms it means that now an Erebus pilot is going to take maybe 4-7 shots to kill a battleship instead of the 2-4 shots it currently takes. Maybe that gives the battleship in question time to get more reps (extending its life a little more) or time to get the hell out of dodge. A change of expected lifespan from 20 seconds to 30 seconds can be a lot bigger deal than it seems on the surface -- hard to say.
2: Titans are getting their locking time dumpstered. Grath and others are busily exaggerating how not-bad this is, but it is a nerf of nearly an order of magnitude. With no mods, an Erebus is going from a +skills/+fleet scan resolution of 55mm, to a new scan resolution of 6.8mm. Since scan resolution scales your lock time linearly, that means that it now takes a titan 8 times as long to lock anything in the game compared to how it was before. Now, maybe you make fitting changes that make it more like a change of 3-5x instead, but you have to sacrifice fitting slots to get those extra sensor boosters on your ship. And maybe you think a lock time of ~20 seconds on a MWDing Drake or Battleship isn't so bad, but what about going from 12 seconds to 42 seconds to lock a hictor? You get the point.
3: The target cap change is also a factor. In an ideal world, you can line up your targeting perfectly so that you can start blapping a new target with your titan as soon as you've killed the previous one. Dreads can and do try the same thing if they happen to be blapping subcaps, rare as that is. But in practice that is MUCH harder to achieve, especially in a fleet fight. If you have to pre-lock a target (rather than being able to opportunity-lock and start blapping in 5 seconds flat) then suddenly you're warning your future targets. Maybe they try to escape or call for reps early or try to get under your guns -- I dunno. But if ANY of your targets does ANYTHING to escape, suddenly that is your 20-30second targeting cycle wasted, and you only have so many of those. TL;DR: Flying a dread is annoying and titan pilots are about to discover a new form of joy.
So anyway, it remains to be seen. Most of the stuff I described above is based on numbers that you can get from EFT, but it is hard to say for sure how significant it will be in practice. I think it will be significant enough that supercaps will no longer be a hard-counter to every subcap fleet in the game...but we'll see.
Why not give them a huge resistance to ewar? There's warp strengths and sensor strengths, why not take this further and simply give supers HUGE resistance to them instead of outright immunity?
titans already have something like 200 ss, even just 1 eccm makes it 392
either way not getting jammed
Ever kill a battleship with a rifter?
Scan resolution is a logarithmic function.
You're a logarithmic function.
(4:14:52 AM) grimbold_dengrist: all Marivauder does as a mod is post about being a mod
(11:47:38 AM) endie: If you lot don't stop that I'm moving this corp to test
Your mom's a derived logarithmic function.
More is still better. All of what this titans 'nerf' entails is simply solved by simply fielding more titans.
Your momma's so fat they have to roll her in flour to find her sine waves.
By all means, keep investing in a platform that will be beaten until conformance improves. What could possibly go wrong?
he is adding a (bad) post to the (bad) thread
she still makes my crotch shape up like f (x) = x2 ? x ? 2
Another thing that's frequently lost out in these discussions is having to adjust fittings to compensate for the nerfs. Want to lock more than three targets? Auto-targs in high or a Signal Amp in low. If you want to stack sensor boosters to be able to hit subcaps, you need to cram a bunch on there, which means cap rechargers get removed. A Titan which fits for anti-capital work doesn't need to adjust its fit at all, but a Titan which is obsessed with hitting subcaps doesn't merely take a statistical nerf, but as a practical matter loses fitting slots to compensate for the nerf as well.
I do appreciate all the vehement calls from PL posters to see Titans nerfed more, stating that this nerf doesn't go far enough. An argument from a PL poster or FC about Titans needing more nerfs is much more effective than an argument made by known death2allsupercaps types; believe me, I will c&p the best of the PL 'nerf titans more, this doesn't do enough' threads into the CSM forums. I didn't think I'd have much political capital after Crucible or now this round, but perhaps - with PL's help - we can achieve a world where Titans can't target subcaps at all!
[twitter]themittani[/twitter]
While this is an admirable attitude to have about things, how does it fix the problem?
I mean you' guys have come this far with the parade, get it done right so we literally never have to hear you bitch about the unfairness of titans again. If they half ass it, you know full fucking well that its going to literally be years until they check it again, and if Titans can still murder subcaps post patch, listening to you guys bitch about it for another year is probably more than most sane people can manage.
If you let the put this patch out, you'll not fix whats wrong, and you will likely exasperate the problem by actually INCREASING titan production to make up for what some people see as a nerf.
Literally at this point everybody should be up in their ass, because this 'little change' they're making is going to make what we have now look good in comparison when all the people finish rolling out all the titans.
My titan fit wont change a bit from what i have now and it'll still assrape everything around it, i just have to wait a bit longer.
I changed one important bit.
You'll get tons of help from PL. We'd rather see the titans moved into a useful role than reserved for a type of combat that stopped happening in EVE 2 years ago (capital combat).
The thing that this also does is mean that any BS getting yelloboxed by titans can just warp out.
Nothing would drive titans more insane than having their long-ass lock time happen over and over again as subcaps warp out to safespots before they can finish locking them.
Assume their safespots aren't "P1 at 0km" where a wild gang of nasties are camping, of course.
Might want to look at https://forums.eveonline.com/default...286#post958286 then, and copy/paste that.
We're already well used to this, it happened all the time when we could still DD sub caps.
EDIT: And through all this, Mynas remains retarded. Any 'hack' that simply stops titans from targeting smaller shit, that isn't matched by the smaller shit not being able to target titans, is retarded.
It sounds equally retarded either way you look at it.
Though don't most entities wait till they have subcap superiority to commit Titans? If so, I'd assume that BS would be bubbled and have a pretty hard time getting out in time (unless he's already on the edge or the other side isn't spreading bubbles enough).
I cannot confirm or deny if I have or have not c&p'd Yaay's post.
Anyway, yeah - there's a big distinction between the Graths and Shadoos who want Titans removed from combat completely (fine with me) and yowlers who are desperate to blap. Amusingly, if we do get 'remove from combat completely/given new noncombat role' in, the yowlers will ruin their throats from shouting themselves hoarse about their sacred WoW-purps, "endgame" - as if EVE has such a thing - high-end-raiding-guild entitlement.
The problem, at this point, is that I have yet to see a 'remove from combat role revamp' idea that seems viable. But then, I haven't been looking; after Crucible I didn't think there would be any movement on Titans at all, but then the devs came to us with this.
The CSM has had a dumping-ground 'argue about supers' thread where we go at it for months, but I didn't think it had much dev traction or interest. When the nerf was dropped in our laps, I was surprised and delighted to see that the devs recognized that subcap blapping is a problem, without me needing to launch a crusade or anything about it. The irony of it coming from Greyscale is just too much - as anyone who attended the Fanfest Roundtables last year knows, or anyone who's seen my comments on the anomaly nerf or the jump bridge removal ideas of CSM5, Greyscale and I don't exactly get along.
[twitter]themittani[/twitter]
You still have to make allowances for FC and individual pilot skill, yes, but this is as it should be.
Honestly the mobile alliance logistics hub sounds best.
-MASSIVELY increase the SMA, like, 5x minimum to allow for storage of a huge number of fit BS
- Allow it to have a repair service, so ships can approach, right click, repair ship and have that actually happen.
- Fix the Clone Vat bay so its not such a useless piece of shit.
- Tweak the leadership bonuses to make them an extremely powerful version of command ships bonuses, the full kit from all 3 mods, without fitting the mods.
- Allow them to fit a mod like a siege/triage mod that allows them to anchor, while anchored they get a standard Large Tower's FF around them that functions like a normal POS shiled, working from the Titans hit point pool, that can effectively be reinforced, and the titan even destroyed while in "Siege" mode.
- A titan can fit Sub system type mods in its highs, these act as groups of POS guns and mods that would effectively only be able to be used by OTHER PLAYERS while the titan was in "Siege" mode. Basically any function a POS can normally achieve save for cyno jamming and moon mining can be equipped as a sub system. (these would fit in the place of normal titan guns, like "Small Autocannon Cluster", would be like 5 small manable AC's when in POS mode, Tackle cluster might be 2 points and 2 webs, ect ect)
- Cannot bridge while in Siege mode
- Burns racial fuel type while in siege.
- Can drop into siege anywhere, so not restricted to moon orbits
EDIT: With this change you would of course completely remove all XL Guns from the titan, and the DD would be removed from the game.
EDIT EDIT: I had toyed with the idea of allowing it to fit and use a cloak while in POS mode so things like hidden forward bases could be set up, but I left that out, feel free to think it over though. The cloak would at that point cloak everything in that tower, but a dedicated proper looking around would eventually get a hit on a ship crossing the cloaking barrier and be able to locate the POS itself.
Kind of like when you have those towers that end up on their own tiny ass grid and you've got to do all kinds of bitch work with your scanner to get a lock on its exact grid and location, only this would be done on purpose.
In the end I dropped it as that leaves room for future itteration on titans (lol) and achieves the goal of getting them off the battlefield while not having them be utterly useless.
No, it isn't. This is the formula for lock time:
Lock Time = 40000 / [ [Scan Resolution] * (asinh [Target Signature Radius] )^2 }
The image of this from LaTeX is here:
Attachment 2671
If we translate that "asinh" (this is the hyperbolic arcsin function) into actual math, asinh(x) = ln (x + sqrt(x^2 + 1)).
TL;DR: The only part of the locking time equation which is logarithmic is the target's signature radius. This is why you can go from a dread of sig 2k to a titan of sig 16k and not get anywhere near that much change in your lock time. (Greyscale actually referred to this in one of his posts.) However, the scan resolution part of the equation absolutely scales linearly -- double your scan resolution and you lock twice as fast, period.
It doesn't. It's not my problem though, so I can afford to be a bit more flippant about it.
First of all, it's not just "you guys", i.e. us. Second of all, when was the last time I bitched (not pointed out things I saw as game-breaking or detrimental to the longevity of wars, actual bitching)?
Personally, I've been much more interested in preaching how the SOV system needs deepening so we get away from the "one big timer with 8 hours grace time to shine your medals, iron your uniform, load your muskets and line up alongside your honourable comrades so both sides can fire off volleys at each other", but that hasn't exactly stopped me from preaching that I think titans have and/or will have an inordinate effect on a war. Just the fact that there hasn't really been a proper supercap brawl since the old NC died, should be a hint about that.
As I said when the devblog hit, this nerf shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, and the continuing nerfing until CCP is satisfied should be something everyone should expect now, and not just go "well they're making a small change now, maybe they'll leave it alone after that, when they've said, specifically, that they will keep on working at it, and that this is not the end of it. And as such, anyone investing in new titans at this point is gambling that CCP loses interest in nerfing the titans.
I've no problem with supporting the whole "get in dat ass" deal, but it needs to be a good alternative that everyone can get behind. The alternatives I can think of offhand is:
1) Delete the motherfuckers. Just woosh, gone. I wouldn't be surprised if this causes tons of bitching.
2) Remove all offensive weapons from the titans, make it a purely fleet support tool. I wouldn't be surprised if this causes tons of bitching.
3) Remove ability to lock subcaps from titans. I wouldn't be surprised if this causes tons of bitching.
4) Remove almost all the highslots and fit one XXL gun with a high damage, low ROF deal, and a signature resolution so high it can literally only hit structures or caps with any reliability. I wouldn't be surprised if this causes tons of bitching.
5) Some sort of logistical front base, but that's what I would've expect from the mothership. While that removes titans from the role of superdread, that still leaves supercarriers as nothing but a ... well, supercarrier.
6) Think of some other fancy role that I just can't be arsed to think up right now. I wouldn't be surprised if this causes tons of bitching.
Me likey likey!
Question though, Grath, do you see its potential abuse as an issue? For example oh noes my dozen supercaps are bubbled and going down, quick, cyno in titan, shield up, break hic locks, push subcaps away from supers, etc?
If this was implemented i could see a lot of that thing happening, I could also see a lot of coalition hilarity with titan's FF sending ships hundreds of kilometres away as they are flung from the shields without a pwd.
I like the mobile alliance logistics hub, but to be honest, that sounds like what CCP should've turned the mothership into when they repurposed it. Instead, what they did was turn the mothership into a supercarrier (i.e. a bigger carrier), and the titan into a superdread, which means the only thing they thought of when doing these changes were BIGGER MOAR AAAAAAAA, instead of actually making the damn things interesting strategically. I know we've had a few differences, Grath, but at least the whole mothership was something we were semi in agreement about, since for me it adds flavour to the battlefield beyond just "bigger numbers".
I imagine it'd take a minute, a few at most, to set up the shield - or an otherwise good idea would get the shit gamed out of it.
I, too, like this suggestion, especially the super command ship part
For a single alliance that could work (the shield thing) but for the common coalition style warfare we see exactly what you say would happen, dudes would fly everywhere.
And yea, they COULD do that thing where they jump in and put up a titan pos, but if you're in that condition already, whats going to happen is you're going to 'Alamo' at that one titan, and he's going to be put into RF mode. Any enemy worth their salt is then going to rape cage the "titan tower" and at LEAST that one is going to die. Retreat to a fortress never really worked for anybody who didn't live in Stalingrad, if they're forced to do this emergency safety blanket move, they're still going to be down one titan.
EDIT: And yea, having the FF be instant would be retarded, 1-5 minutes for the full deployment would be best. They could even do the thing they like to do where the titan changes shape, puts down outriggers, kinda like the Rourq does, but if this had to wait I'd be ok with just the fucntionality
I don't think the mobile force field idea is workable, mainly for coding reasons, but also for the unimaginable ways it could be abused, especially with a zillion titans.
Imagine your undock rapecaged, but at the edge of the cage, a solid sphere of sieged titans with no hole to escape from.
A critical ihub comes out of reinforced in a favorable TZ, the opponents can't possibly show up to hit it, but you can't get close enough to rep it, because there's a titanball on it.
Clone vat bays have coding problems (I'm assuming that's why they were never implemented in the first place), and a lot of that other stuff probably does, too. I'd like to have hope, but remember how big a deal CCP made of the old doomsday change, which was basically just a big gun with a special graphics effect.
Tweaking the leadership bonuses is the lowest hanging fruit, but you need to maintain some distinction between the titan races.
I think if the POS shield timer was sufficiently long enough (IE, oh noes small gang tackled my JF full of tech, jump in titan, FF up, jump out JF, shield down in 60 seconds, jump out titan) then yes. If the FF siege timer was an hour or something, that's plenty long enough to get a dogpile happening which would mean lone titans abusing the mechanic should end up on the KB's fairly regularly.
MpozoY, that's easy enough to fix, just put 'cannot anchor within blah of blah' on the titan FF, its already coded in game for the tower stuff.
PS They should have done that with POCOs so you don't have POCO plus ihub on the same grid ahh bump bump.
You have to wonder whether the clone vat bays were born broken and never fixed because it was a genuinely insurmountable coding challenge, or because of CCP just going 'fucked if I know' after a couple of hours headscratching and taking the easy way out.
If our new and improved Eve-Devs 2.0 can make them actually function as intended (), I'd not be at all surprised to see them re-introduced as a major part of how Titans or Supercarriers end up.
My dream is that titans get docking clamps along the exterior. Player burns to ship, engages docking clamps. Titan jumps through cyno, players disengage clamps and deploy to the field. While attached to the titan you can refit/repair/stock up as needed.
It'd be so fucking cool don't ruin this.
This is all pretty easy to avoid really, you just put practical limits on how close you can anchor to something.
These are already in game now.
Say like, you can't anchor within 200km of a gate or any pre anchored objects, that kind of thing is in game in the form of smart bomb limits, and pre existing pos mod anchor limits (You cannot anchor Ship Maintenance Array here as Erebus is in the way).
After a certain point in the game, all newly built titans are locked into the alliance they are built in. Forces people to build them under their own name, so it'd be in their own sov held space. Gets rid of the mentality of personal titans. Should the alliance die, their titans dissapear. I dont know what you'd do with the current pool of titans, but it at least wouldnt get any bigger and would slowly dissaper with deaths and going inactive over time.
I'm sure its a horrible idea. But if when my corp leaves an alliance, i dont get to take the station I spent billions on building, i gotta leave that behind. Why not the fucking titan too?
sounds cool. but whit the numbers of titans in game atm i might be a bit shabby. that kinda of assets isent something you would want 100s off, and if the weaponry is like a pos its gonna blap subcaps anyways.
someway and somehow though that might be the idea to go around
If you want to make it simpler, just buff the titan's EHP in siege mode, no force field and have the mod clusters (guns, scrams, webs etc) on the titan; either allow people to man them or make them automatic.
i still like the idea of titans being on grid and providing some sort of small AoE damage / ewar effect but it locks them in place while they are doing it. have the ewar bonus be racial, so if 10 ragnaroks warp on grid, pop their ewar mod (5 minute timer) and each one applies 1/10th of a web effect on every ship on grid.
Because while it began as an alliance asset, it is now a personal asset, more often than not.
a huge sov fleet fight would be alot cooler if each side was forced to deploy sieged titans giving amazing boni that one side couldnt be without because the otherside had it
alas they would actually have to be alliance level assets too bad we are way past that
I was hoping that making them useful while returning to the idea of an alliance asset would be a decent idea. I think that it would give current power blocks a head start in staying good because they have their current pilots of personal titans. But it gives smaller somewhat competent alliances a built in mechanic of keeping the supers they built with their sov, instead of losing them to bigger alliances, which I think deep down is a huge contributor of the current supercap heavy alliances and problems that creates.
I was going to start writing up a proposal about the Supercarrier Remote ECM Burst being modded so that each supercarrier got its own racial variant (so nyxes got a remote AoE sensor damp, Aeons got a remote AoE tracking disruptor and Hels got a remote AoE target painter) but
I guess CCP would need to work on some form of Ewar rebalance before that ever got off the ground.
Making the doomsday device into a Ganglink Siege Module (FC Titan activates DD, is self-tackled for ten minutes, every ship in fleet gets +100% damage) would be ridiculously awesome.
See, this is an example of letting hurt feelings guide game design.
If supers left your alliance for another alliance, its probably got to do with how much and how you use your supers that they find unacceptable. You shouldn't have to code that out of the game, thats natural. If you're not fun to hang out with, people won't stay. If somebody in your alliance buys himself a super (easily achievable even if you triple the price of titans and scs) you don't have the right to insist he stay with your alliance if its not fun.
Coding the game to force people to stay somewhere when it was their effort and money that got your alliance its new weapon is stupid.
Yeah, CCP would have to radically redo the whole ship mechanic to make something like that work, like making multiple people pilot the same ship to be able to do anything with it or something.
I'm one of the supers that left a small alliance to join the blob, and i left for the reasons you mention. I just fucked up and picked White Noise. But I guess I should have seen it coming when they accepted me.
I just see peoples point on how they wished they left the game entirely. But I also know that the process of going into a wormhole for a few months to make enough money to buy one was some of the most fun I've ever had. I'm trying to think of a way to keep big toys and not make them a game breaking mechanic. Its a way to artificially attempt to make things closer to even. There would still be tons of ways for people to abuse the system, but it'd be a roadblock at least.
Instead of the supers themselves being the item, the pilots become more valuable, and they'd look for the alliances that has a super for them to join or something along those lines.
Refine how ppl gun from a pos, and it could be doable to have ppl man the weapon on a siege titan. i don't have much hope in ccp to actually think this far.
The problem is that there are "big toys" in the first place. At some point, the toys become too big to take a loss and not failcascade (either at a personal level, corp level or alliance level, it all depends on how big the loss is relative to whomever is affected), and that helps to end wars, and that's boring. Personally I believe that for things that see active combat, carriers and dreads suffice just fine. If you must go more expensive than that (while staying T1), it should be something which just helps add to the fleet (without being an offensive tool), while not being something which is guaranteed lost every time there's a fleet fight.
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