Titan Rebalance 2012 - "Move the goalposts closer, I can't score"

[Opti]

I haven't read the last three pages of the thread; just got back from yoga and dinner. I'm going to take a wild guess that it's full of blappers trying to justify their misbehavior while still being naively uncomprehending - save a few conspiracy theories about me, the CSM, or CCP - about why they got dunked on so hard and had their toys taken away from them.

"buh buh buh it would have all been FINE if you just..."

eno vino? 43 north? L'etoile? lombardinos? chuck e cheese?

[Manny]

I haven't read the last three pages of the thread; just got back from yoga and dinner. I'm going to take a wild guess that it's full of blappers trying to justify their misbehavior while still being naively uncomprehending - save a few conspiracy theories about me, the CSM, or CCP - about why they got dunked on so hard and had their toys taken away from them.

"buh buh buh it would have all been FINE if you just..."

O Onion you are so funny!

[NOTwhitetree]

"about me"

It's always about you isn't it.

[Della Monk]

Can I just offer my opinion as a markedly un-elite shmuck that I never ever want to fly a supercapital?
Like seriously fuck not being able to dock up, move around freely and having to take the game moderately seriously. I'm also the kind of scrub who doesn't use alts.

[Weaselior]

Gonna request some clarification as to what you were trying to say here.

if the ships cost is based on minerals its t1 so its insurable and you dont give a fuck its expensive

[lothos]

I haven't read the last three pages of the thread; just got back from yoga and dinner. I'm going to take a wild guess that it's full of blappers trying to justify their misbehavior while still being naively uncomprehending - save a few conspiracy theories about me, the CSM, or CCP - about why they got dunked on so hard and had their toys taken away from them.

"buh buh buh it would have all been FINE if you just..."

Yoga?

[Vile rat]

He's totally metro. Just accept it and move on.

[Mfume]

man wtf did some1 srsly imply that darius johnson was behind all this?

[MpozoY]

If you guys are green and into the environment and all I'd like to assure you that Theta Squad supercapitals are built with locally acquired minerals through ratloot and hauler spawns, no need to burn all those messy isotopes moving minerals from empire or buying them from opressive regimes. Anyone who, you know, holds space and isn't overwhelmingly composed of scripts and injectors is capable of doing this.

[Hilmar Keller]

I don't know but I just realized that weaselor got trips on a shitpost

[Murr]

just finished amarr titan 5 on saturday

welp

Brohug.

Finishing Capital Ship V soon. I'm always great with timing myself. Always.

[Scotch]

I just queued up cap ship V.



Because fuck you, that's why.

[Pielemieni]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to MpozoY again.

[Themick]

I'm not going to take anything away from the CFC, they do well in their style of play and it is definitely effective, but I wont take this as far as to say that now tracking Titans are nerfed, no one stands a chance. I actually think that this may be a good direction for the game to take as it has the potential to bring more pilots into sov 0.0...

Sure when it comes to sov and moon warfare you will see huge ass groups filling up to the hundreds, but EvEntually, as time goes on, the great big coalitions will break apart, fight amongst each other, and reform. They always do. Look at the past year or so and see this in abundance. No one is immune to this.


Will we see 20 vs 20 man fleets in the future over sov? Hell no, and to expect this is a joke, but it wont be 2000 vs 2000.

[Iratus]

No! with titans nerfed nobody stands a chance against the blob! the CFC will be unstoppable just like the NC was!

Oh the nerdanity!

[Jones Bones]

I'm still waiting for the DRF to take over all of 0.0 and turn it into a botting heaven.

[Grath]

I expect Grath and his buddies are on SiSi atm, adapting

We adapted 5 minutes after the patch notes were released.


As you can tell by the still humming CFC titan construction yards, this patch has literally 0 effect on Titans, with the singular exception being that for some reason CCP has decided that making the titan pilots wait an extra 30 seconds to begin applying damage to any ship in the game was somehow a balance (because eliminating Titans ability to hit frigs and destroyers only will not bring balance to fleet combat where titans are concerned, unless the CFC plans to switch to sig tanking BS).


Its a good play though, if Mittani had acutally finished off RAIDEN like he should, it would show CCP that all the titans in the world can't save you when the hordes come, and by throwing drakes at titans for 3 weeks left right and center he seems to have brought the issue into sharp focus, while at the same time still securing everything of worth in the area.


Not too shabby.

[de4deye]

Drakes should be able to kill titans easier!!

[de4deye]

So why don't we just bring back AOE DD?

[Doink9731]

They've Adapted!

[anzoxe]

Those who do not adapt become victims to CCP.

[Jones Bones]

Sir Molle => The Mittani
BOB => Goons
Controlling Your Game => Controlling Your Game

Mother of God, it all makes sense. Thank you Grath for showing us the true puppet masters behind CCP. Their days in the shadows end here; begun the tinfoil hat wars have.

[UnknownPoster]

Sir Molle => The Mittani
BOB => Goons
Controlling Your Game => Controlling Your Game

Mother of God, it all makes sense. Thank you Grath for showing us the true puppet masters behind CCP. Their days in the shadows end here; begun the tinfoil hat wars have.

Be cautious with what you say next, persian.

[Grath]

begun the tinfoil hat wars have.

Haha what fucking game have you been playing, the tinfoil wars have been going for about 7 years now.


From old stories of BoB DDOSing everything in sight, to the scourge of the Goon empire: A single Evoke Cheetah, to the Sphere, its always been here.

[Manny]

[spoiler=Tinfoil]CCP Screegs ,CCP Greyscale , CCP Soundwave[/spoiler]

Sky is falling ZoNoes

EVE Online is for Goons , Eve Online is for Goons , CCP is Icelandic for Goons Goons Goons

Its like a twisted circle or something only a few things left to complete the circle.

[Combat Scrub]

I'm not going to doom and gloom too much, but everyone complaining about the ease of ISK and the need to stem the flow – you are missing the biggest part of that problem.

That ISK flows easiest into the hands that already have ISK. Riches beget riches, and without the "opportunity" for newer players to acquire wealth, those who already have tens/hundreds of billions (or trillions) of ISK in their wallets have literally years of no income generation to bring that gap down. I'm sure Turbofeld/Diagoras could get the numbers - but I'm guessing much like in RL removing the source of the ISK generation doesn't solve the problem, since so much ISK is already in the hands of so few. You can't fix this easily, because "fixing" it ruins it for younger, poorer players first. Any changes that CCP makes to actually solve the problems of ISK and logistics will take years to trickle down and resolve themselves, because of the amount of ISK already in the game.

As for Titans, I'd bet that the "titan explosion" is paired fairly closely with the re-distribution of Technetium out of the NC - and the fact that once that ISK faucet (god I hope I'm using it right) was opened to someone who plays the game, those beneficiaries started using it for their personal silver-plated Aston-Martins (super carriers) and their fleet of Tesla Roadsters (titans). Now before you get all RMT on me, I'm saying that they are using the ISK from Technetium in-game to buy Titans and Supers, and that's why there was a boom in production - there was a boom in demand when that ISK started staying in the game.

[Opti]

goons are still making titans because they know that defending their sov is gong to take capital level assets

shame about raiden getting raped isnt it

[awy]

the expansion of titans is a ratchet-like interaction between supply and demand. it's not like one reason being true excludes another.

personally i don't see what's wrong with this. more titans means titans become less important individually, and when goons finally get enough titans to throw them around, funded by bot money, we'll see more interesting fleet fights with titan fleets from both sides. because, let's face it. titan battles are balls to the wall exciting. given that eve is such a boring game when it comes to actual gameplay, isn't it a good thing to have more battles involving dead supers?

i'm all for bots decreasing the labor cost of money in eve, raising living standards for players and making it cheaper in effect to be involved and have better stuff. just don't OVERDO it like a horus. individual, small business botters are okay and upstanding eve citizens.

[pinoyzzz]

I'm not going to doom and gloom too much, but everyone complaining about the ease of ISK and the need to stem the flow – you are missing the biggest part of that problem.

That ISK flows easiest into the hands that already have ISK. Riches beget riches, and without the "opportunity" for newer players to acquire wealth, those who already have tens/hundreds of billions (or trillions) of ISK in their wallets have literally years of no income generation to bring that gap down. I'm sure Turbofeld/Diagoras could get the numbers - but I'm guessing much like in RL removing the source of the ISK generation doesn't solve the problem, since so much ISK is already in the hands of so few. You can't fix this easily, because "fixing" it ruins it for younger, poorer players first. Any changes that CCP makes to actually solve the problems of ISK and logistics will take years to trickle down and resolve themselves, because of the amount of ISK already in the game.

As for Titans, I'd bet that the "titan explosion" is paired fairly closely with the re-distribution of Technetium out of the NC - and the fact that once that ISK faucet (god I hope I'm using it right) was opened to someone who plays the game, those beneficiaries started using it for their personal silver-plated Austin-Martins (super carriers) and their fleet of Tesla Roadsters (titans). Now before you get all RMT on me, I'm saying that they are using the ISK from Technetium in-game to buy Titans and Supers, and that's why there was a boom in production - there was a boom in demand when that ISK started staying in the game.

ISK and technetium are mostly irrelevant to proliferation of supercapitals. It has almost everything to do with the ease of obtaining minerals via the drone regions, new anomalies/exploration and empire mining bots. There's also the factor that supercapitals and titans are excellent mineral harvesters in the drone regions, so supercapitals beget more supercapitals - a classic positive feedback effect CCP never anticipated.

[Combat Scrub]

ISK and technetium are mostly irrelevant to proliferation of supercapitals. It has almost everything to do with the ease of obtaining minerals via the drone regions, new anomalies/exploration and empire mining bots. There's also the factor that supercapitals and titans are excellent mineral harvesters in the drone regions, so supercapitals beget more supercapitals - a classic positive feedback effect CCP never anticipated.

I'm going to disagree - because someone has to buy that Titan/Super from the builders. My thought is that having the ISK from Technetium staying in game in the hands of people who want to fly these ships has boosted the demand.

[Opti]

nerf titans nerf tech ban bots

2013 is coming

[tgr]

I'm going to disagree - because someone has to buy that Titan/Super from the builders. My thought is that having the ISK from Technetium staying in game in the hands of people who want to fly these ships has boosted the demand.

Does that explain the supers in the south?

[Yanna]

I'm not going to doom and gloom too much, but everyone complaining about the ease of ISK and the need to stem the flow – you are missing the biggest part of that problem.

That ISK flows easiest into the hands that already have ISK. Riches beget riches, and without the "opportunity" for newer players to acquire wealth, those who already have tens/hundreds of billions (or trillions) of ISK in their wallets have literally years of no income generation to bring that gap down. I'm sure Turbofeld/Diagoras could get the numbers - but I'm guessing much like in RL removing the source of the ISK generation doesn't solve the problem, since so much ISK is already in the hands of so few. You can't fix this easily, because "fixing" it ruins it for younger, poorer players first. Any changes that CCP makes to actually solve the problems of ISK and logistics will take years to trickle down and resolve themselves, because of the amount of ISK already in the game.

This being a videogame, CCP could experiment with stuff like negative interest and other tools to force a more uniform distribution of ISK. Say, non-linear market fees or bounties. As they have a firm handle on the flow of ISK, they could easily detect stuff like holding alts etc. Hell, they could just disable moving more than X ISK outside of a public contract or market order.

There is really no reason for a MMO economy to function on the same principles as a RL one.

[Combat Scrub]

Does that explain the supers in the south?

No. But it correlates with your own comment earlier:

Number of titans:2009 q4: 3322010 q1: 351 +192010 q2: 364 +132010 q3: 417 +532010 q4: 472 +55

[Sentinel Eeex]

That is a aspect of gameplay one of the many end-games in Eve. What you define as end-game does not equate to what others equate to end-game. For ship combat in lowsec and nullsec the majority of players will define supercaps as end-game.

Hahaha. What majority is that?

[The Mittani]

Its a good play though, if Mittani had acutally finished off RAIDEN like he should, it would show CCP that all the titans in the world can't save you when the hordes come, and by throwing drakes at titans for 3 weeks left right and center he seems to have brought the issue into sharp focus, while at the same time still securing everything of worth in the area.


Not too shabby.

I'm pretty tempted to call a full invasion and try to steamroll Raiden before the nerf hits, just because I don't want to listen to them crying about how 'you only won because of the nerf' as they crawl back to Vale. But then, Fanfest in five days.

[Grath]

I guess I just never got into anomalies until i had a titan so maybe i don't know how much you can make off of them, or maybe CCP is full of shit, I'll believe just about anything at this point, but idk a lot of ratters so I have no metric to test CCP's retardation against.

[Manny]

The Eve train for me ends when Titan hits beta hopefully will be able to RMT my shit and cash out with a couple grand.

[awy]

automation once again trumps manual labor. woot woot

[Paraselene]

The Eve train for me ends when Titan hits beta hopefully will be able to RMT my shit and cash out with a couple grand.

That's crazy. EVE is a game you play alongside other games. It doesn't compete with them.

[Weaselior]

pl's apparent response to the titan nerf: become an elite pve alliance

i did not see that one coming

[Sola Sola]

pl's apparent response to the titan nerf: become an elite pve alliance

i did not see that one coming

Whats up with your hard on for PL? You are coming across as really butthurt mad. Just sayin'

[Fix Lag]

Whats up with your hard on for PL? You are coming across as really butthurt mad. Just sayin'

You are a fucking idiot with 14 posts who should probably spend a little more time learning who is who before saying things about their actions.

Weaselior is a top-ranking Goon. Goons hate PL, because PL's core consists of faggoty former goons that nobody wants to play with. PL's periphery is just faggots that nobody wants to play with.

[Fix Lag]

*Except Grath. Grath isn't a faggot so much as a perpetually angry old man.

[Grath]

To be fair a lot of our old goons quit, but we're literally still and always were made up of failed alliance parts. Kind of ironic in a way, made up of used old parts that couldn't hack it, but somehow in a randomly different configuration able to own own own.

[Sentinel Eeex]

To be fair a lot of our old goons quit, but we're literally still and always were made up of failed alliance parts. Kind of ironic in a way, made up of used old parts that couldn't hack it, but somehow in a randomly different configuration able to own own own.

Power gamers never worked too well with casual gamers.

[Manny]

That's a beautiful and eloquent way of framing your argument in such a way that benefits your coalitions modus operandus. I think you will find that end-game players control a multitude of accounts myself personally 11 (Titan , SC , Main PVP , Cyno , Cyno , Spy , Supercap Spy , Spy , Supercap Spy , Training Acct (income) , Training Acct (income) ). I know im in the upper tier but most end-game and/or veteran players run 3 accounts min. So the whole argument of the parallel comparison of 1:1 on new player vs player retention is not completely accurate or relevant. This is not to say that enticing new players isn't important in-fact it is very important. I would say player retention is very important because Eve had a very flat growth period (Tyrranis , Incarna) and the fact that players stayed (retention) is the reason why CCP still exist. Exceedingly I would also point out that players that did stay are much more important than players you admit to "tell them how the game is on the right path" as us players who stuck it out have shown customer loyalty. Futhermore there has been no abuse of mechanics there has simply been use of mechanics. The same way that your coalition takes the Maelstrom and the 1400mm howitzer which by themselves are of no great threat and then pairs them with 500 more of the same. You aren't abusing game mechanics you are simply using a game mechanic to net yourselves whatever edge you can.



In the end were all just people sitting on the otherside of a monitor looking for escape/entertainment from our otherwise normal lives. Sure some will be eccentrics , homosexuals , substance abuse addicts , criminals but mostly were just people no matter which coalition , alliance , corp we belong too. We all play this game for entertainment we all like reaching some type of goal which Eve delivers a very diverse palate of opportunities to set/reach goals on the individual and cooperative level. Every game has End-Game content Eve being a sandbox is more open-ended however the principal still applies it just applies differently on the basis of what aspect of gameplay you enjoy in Eve. For nullsec PVP End-Game has been defined as Supercapitals where if you Invest lots of skillpoints and ISK you can obtain one. The ships tenacity and offense scales off of the investment and as all ships in Eve it is destructible (risk). Does die as easily as a frigate cruiser battlecruiser battleship or regular capital ? No of course not , it has much higher tenacity and offense that's the entire point. Can it be countered? Yes of course in a multitude of ways.



The problem friend is not the ship it is not the players in which use them or how the players use them. The problem lays in CCP's shortsightedness they allowed the acquisition of isk the ease of logistics and laze'affaire (sp?) of policing bots to create a environment where these ships were easily acquired. Now after multiple nerfs that were supposed to be the Death blow to supers we are right back to where we were last year banging our heads on the proverbial NERF wall hoping and praying that this round of nerfs will fix the problem. Let me save you the trouble friend it will not. Instead it will only encourage us the users of Supercaps to acquire more to reach critical mass needed to gain/re-gain our edge. We will do so because of the overarching systemic problem in Eve. Isk and Logistics are easy my paticular alliance takes in .5 trillion isk per month off of just 1 income stream. No my friend we will just throw isk wildly at this issue to remain competitive.



Endie friend you wish for true game balance then please steer your efforts in the correct direction. Unless the glee of shortsighted supercap pilots gets you off at which rate GG enjoy.


? Manny

Still never replied to this Endie.

[HaydenJD]

Respect to the Levi pilots, they are the only Titan pilots laughing at this nerf across the map.

My closest experience to this is the Dramiel nerf, balance something OP and the ones that used them whine(I know I did about Dramiels but that's because I can't fly ceptors).

[Murr]

Incursion discussion moved here : http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread...on-malapoopism

[Malcanis]

Still never replied to this Endie.

How on earth should anyone reply to an accusation from you, of all people, of framing the argument to suit their own alliance.

He's probably spent the last 12 hours in A&E being treated for laughter-related injuries.