Incursion malapoopism

[fugazii]

Yea that wouldn't really stop groups like us, all the NPC stations we live in leads to one thing: PL having pretty boss overall standings with the pirate groups.

Generally though, it would make most assets in NPC 0.0 end up in the hands of NPC space dwellers, since most 0.0 alliances don't waste the time farming standings with the local mission agent.

Which would revitalize npc space. As the assets there would be available to groups too small/not interested in sov.

NPC space is absolutely amazing to live in. Stain, Curse, those that remember back when people actually lived there know what I'm talking about. Different corps and alliances controlling single systems and constellations, absolute small gang brawling 24/7. Combined with the fact that it's all -1.0 for quick cash, faction and officer spawns everywhere and agents it's a wonder why people don't live there. Seriously if you've never lived in Stain, carrier jump some ships and take a vaca there for a week, amazing. ~Deep Stain, A side is crap.

[Dego]

So if I wanted to start sucking on this golden tit how would I best get started? Just park a toon in highsec and run with random incursionbear fleets or take my chances with the autistic kids in TEST?

[Hilmar Keller]

You don't need TEST, all you need is a T3 or a decent BS and if you advertise in the constellation's Incursion channel you'll get picked up soon enough. Obviously the shinier your ship the faster you'll get into a fleet, but also the more likely you'll just get suicided for your mods.

[tgr]

At any rate, like poaw touched on, incursions are the closest thing to "good" PvE has to offer, they get players out of solo-missioning hideyholes and flying with dudes they otherwise wouldn't meet, teach them about basic tanking, the relationship between having logis and not dying, etc. Basically playing a multiplayer game with other people, which Goons say is good.

For that reason alone I'd support them over other empire PvE content.

As I've been saying (probably more on eve-o than here), incursions are probably one of the best things CCP have ever done for PVE content, it's just a pity they also made the act of being in nullsec look even less enticing because why go to nullsec where you can get blown up easily, your system can get camped by a single guy, and you're hard pressed to even get close to the same type of rewards.

[domino]

As I've been saying (probably more on eve-o than here), incursions are probably one of the best things CCP have ever done for PVE content, it's just a pity they also made the act of being in nullsec look even less enticing because why go to nullsec where you can get blown up easily, your system can get camped by a single guy, and you're hard pressed to even get close to the same type of rewards.

I run incursions and I live in null sec. I do both for different reasons. I run incursions because honestly they are the more enjoyable way of ratting, soloing plexs is pretty dull, running incursions whilst having a laugh in fleet makes the whole process much more enjoyable. I then spend pretty much all that isk running in 0.0. In 0.0 it's the fights that make it enjoyable you'll never get close to that experience in high sec. Anyone whose moved out of 0.0 into high because they make more isk shouldn't have been in 0.0 in the first place. Also I never realised how dangerous running anomalies and plexs was in 0.0: I must be the only genius that runs them without too much effort and not get killed by another player. Come on, if you live in 0.0 and have half a brain is ratting up there any more dangerous than running incursions in lo sec? I don't think so.

CCP have made pve content people want to play, most of the people I run incursions with live in 0.0 and they all do it for the same reason - it's more fun that ratting in null. But, they wouldn't dream of moving out of 0.0 because it's simply much more fun PLAYING in 0.0.

[tgr]

I guess I should've said living, not being. Being in nullsec doesn't necessarily mean living in nullsec, and by living I mean doing more than just fleet up. I do pretty much the same thing as you, I make my money in hisec and lose ships in nullsec, I just don't do incursions as I can't stand the shorthand hisec people insist on using. I fuck with markets instead.

[Mizuchi]

I would love to do incursions, but i cant use my titan so

[Marivauder]

They need nerfing, although since they are my prime source of isk, i'm not gonna go out of my way to complain about nerfing them

[domino]

I guess I should've said living, not being. Being in nullsec doesn't necessarily mean living in nullsec, and by living I mean doing more than just fleet up. I do pretty much the same thing as you, I make my money in hisec and lose ships in nullsec, I just don't do incursions as I can't stand the shorthand hisec people insist on using. I fuck with markets instead.

I don't think there are huge problems with incursions I think the problem is making isk in 0.0 is fucking tedious. Before I did incursions I use to run stuff into NPC space and sell it, I made more doing that than incursions but it was very very dull. Rather than nerfing incursions, which they won't do to any great extent, I'd much rather than found a more fun way to make isk in 0.0. Maybe if they made smuggling a viable avenue that would work?

[Agathor]

They need nerfing, although since they are my prime source of isk, i'm not gonna go out of my way to complain about nerfing them

Yes, lets nerf the income real players have.

[Grath]

I don't think there are huge problems with incursions I think the problem is making isk in 0.0 is fucking tedious. Before I did incursions I use to run stuff into NPC space and sell it, I made more doing that than incursions but it was very very dull. Rather than nerfing incursions, which they won't do to any great extent, I'd much rather than found a more fun way to make isk in 0.0. Maybe if they made smuggling a viable avenue that would work?

This is the problem you don't see though.


You hang out in 0.0, and do all your living oriented things in Empire around the incursions. This helps contribute to making the area you live in dead as fuck. This dead area then doesn't get roamed in, because roaming is a waste of time unless you're prepared to sit out front of the station for an hour while they form up the perfect counter fleet that has twice your numbers.

No defense gangs, nobody living in the actual 0.0, just a group of guys waiting on the next big timer so they can form up, and go to said fight.




You could cut out 3/4 of the 0.0 systems if thats all you needed to have 0.0 work. Right now its not really working, and its pretty dead on the day to day basis compared to the roaming gangs that used to inhabit the game

[tgr]

I don't think the main problem is the number of systems, it's more the fact that there just isn't much worth doing for most people, so roaming gangs have little to catch, there's little point in running around with defense gangs, since stations etc aren't worth hitting or defending unless you're looking at a full-scale assault, POSes and POCOs, while hittable targets, still seem to be a bit much for most small roaming gangs.

[July]

I don't think the main problem is the number of systems, it's more the fact that there just isn't much worth doing for most people, so roaming gangs have little to catch, there's little point in running around with defense gangs, since stations etc aren't worth hitting or defending unless you're looking at a full-scale assault, POSes and POCOs, while hittable targets, still seem to be a bit much for most small roaming gangs.

Buff belt ratting, nerf bots, reset ESG, blue Pizza.
4 easy ways to make 0.0 better, but nobody ever listens to me.

[tgr]

Buff everything in nullsec, bots have been "nerfed" (let's see if the penalties dissuade anyone. I doubt it.), reset test, eat pizza.

[Mfume]

bring 2x JBs per system back. form up times have been atrocious since that change.

[pinoyzzz]

I would rather have it that all jump bridges, including ones from titans, are removed completely. Only black ops jump bridges should remain in the game.

[Grath]

bring 2x JBs per system back. form up times have been atrocious since that change.

I still like the traffic they bring after the reduction, I'd rather see one per constellation.

[Kovacs]

They should do away with stargates. You should have to manually pilot from solar system to solar system. Might make all the PL "learn to fly your own fucking ships." douchebags happy.

[Dego]

Jewcursion coms weren't even that bad until they started talking about Skyrim

[Muhadin]

Incursions are fine in terms of isk, but i believe vanguards should not be the best in terms of isk/hour, assault and headquarters should be better. A nerf of vanguards and a buff for assaults so you don't have to change fleet comp to go from one site to the other, and maybe a isk buff as well so your actually making around 100-120mil/hour with the best fleets, vanguards should be placed around the 50-70mil/hour area.

[Dego]

It was a fine day in the region of Black Rise and three fleets of Incursion Jews happily slaughtered rats and counted their iskies. All of a sudden, disaster struck! A hostile armor fleet entered system and warped to a site were the good jews of (kill) Stalin squad were engaging rats. The jews quickly aligned out and began blapping shit, but alas they were not able to disengaged before nasty Nazi/Soviet pirates landed on grid! The fleet commander made a judgment call and in true jewish fashion cut losses, warping the squad out and leaving a hurricane and two heroic guardians behind. The trapped jews burnt mods and the hurricane warped out as the guardians were primaried and pointed by the nasty Red pirates. (i hate) Hitler and (???) Auschwitz squads formed up with the battered Stalin squad and ran to the rescue, war cries lighting up coms. A cowardly Red proteus and an absolution were caught, stoned to death and looted, but the jews were gunned down and gassed as they rushed the main lines of the enemy. The jews attempted to regroup and retreat, but a few were netted and killed as their comrades fled to safety. Many good jews died today, they shall be missed

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12772952

Yeah, making the same amount of isk incursioning in high sec is gay vOv

[X420X 5M0K3 W33D X420X]

Incursions gives me so much ISK that I can afford to smoke weed every day!

[Psychotic Monk]

This thread is really depressing.

[domino]

This is the problem you don't see though.


You hang out in 0.0, and do all your living oriented things in Empire around the incursions. This helps contribute to making the area you live in dead as fuck. This dead area then doesn't get roamed in, because roaming is a waste of time unless you're prepared to sit out front of the station for an hour while they form up the perfect counter fleet that has twice your numbers.

No defense gangs, nobody living in the actual 0.0, just a group of guys waiting on the next big timer so they can form up, and go to said fight.


You could cut out 3/4 of the 0.0 systems if thats all you needed to have 0.0 work. Right now its not really working, and its pretty dead on the day to day basis compared to the roaming gangs that used to inhabit the game

I only run incursions twice a week, I don't need mountains of isk to run in 0.0. If a fleet comes up on jabber with an FC I like I'll drop incursions and log my main in. I'm in 0.0 for the fights and fleets, moreover my corp kicks people who don't run in fleets - I assume most do.

I don't think what you're talking about has anything to do with incursions, because before them people were running lvl4 missions or sitting in jita trading. Having a high sec alt making isk isn't a new thing. The problem you're talking about, I think, stems from two things a) making isk in 0.0 is boring, really boring and b) the content provide by alliances isn't making people want to log on

[poaw]

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12772952

Is there something more to that fight that isn't in your KB link or BR (logi counts, off-grid boosters, comms being filled with voices soaked in tears made of mostly Mt. Dew)? I ask because that fight looks 100% winnable from the GSF side.

And HOLY SHIT IS THAT GUY 10 BOXING TENGUS!?

[Securitas]

Snuff Box are extremely competent, so it's not that strange that GSF lost.

[Zagdul]

Did you just pull that out of your ass or is this an actual fact? The way incursions shit isk out i find it pretty hard to believe.

It's true, however mission runners > incursion runners 10:1.

Tippia laid it out quite well:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default...072#post955072

Mission runners thus sink 805k ISK per runner per day, reducing their net injection to 1.8M ISK per runner per day.
Incursion runners sink a hefty 24M ISK per runner per day, reducing their net injection to 120M ISK per runner per day.

CCP says that Incursions equate to roughly 1/5th of the isk faucets. With such a small number of people running them and the income being flat across all involved, it's something that can only drive inflation up. I'm no economical wizard here, i'm typically pretty uneducated in the way of numbers, however even I see a problem with this where a fucking PHD doesn't.

[Zagdul]

Oh, I've said it before, I'll say it again... and again... and..


Remove the CONCORD response to incursions.

[Richter Belmont]

Is it too much to ask to want incursions of every pirate type even though it makes zero sense lorewise (caring about lore, 2012, etc etc)?

I want my angelcursion, goddamnit.

[Canned Yerins]

And HOLY SHIT IS THAT GUY 10 BOXING TENGUS!?

Yes. The tengus combine to form Auschwitz Squad, home of the greatest Jew in all of internet spaceships. Solo Vanguards errday.

[Hilmar Keller]

Is it too much to ask to want incursions of every pirate type even though it makes zero sense lorewise (caring about lore, 2012, etc etc)?

I want my angelcursion, goddamnit.

Stop making so much sense, you're making it harder to negrep you to death.

[Mfume]

It's true, however mission runners > incursion runners 10:1.

Tippia laid it out quite well:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default...072#post955072



CCP says that Incursions equate to roughly 1/5th of the isk faucets. With such a small number of people running them and the income being flat across all involved, it's something that can only drive inflation up. I'm no economical wizard here, i'm typically pretty uneducated in the way of numbers, however even I see a problem with this where a fucking PHD doesn't.

You are aware that anoming is a raw isk injection well beyond that of incursions, yes?

[poaw]

CCP says that Incursions equate to roughly 1/5th of the isk faucets. With such a small number of people running them and the income being flat across all involved, it's something that can only drive inflation up. I'm no economical wizard here, i'm typically pretty uneducated in the way of numbers, however even I see a problem with this where a fucking PHD doesn't.

Because the amount of ISK injected will plateau based on the site respawn times. If tomorrow every mission runner pulled up tent stakes and went to the nearest highsec incursion the average amount of ISK per runner would plummet.

And advocating the removal of CONCORD response in highsec incursions will gain just as much traction as "Remove CONCORD to fix risk-free L4s".

[tgr]

And advocating the removal of CONCORD response in highsec incursions will gain just as much traction as "Remove CONCORD to fix risk-free L4s".

Except there's some logic behind it. Why should concord come blow up someone with great gusto because they shot a player, whereas OH HEY LOOK THERE'S A SANSHA INVASION LET'S ... eat donuts, I don't care.

[Zagdul]

You are aware that anoming is a raw isk injection well beyond that of incursions, yes?

You are aware that the amount of anomers are well beyond that of incursers creating a greater injection based on sheer number, yes?

EDIT: This I don't see as a problem as much either. What bothers me is that Empire Isk Injection > all by a retarded margin. The average isk per hour of an empire dweller is greater than that of a null bear. This is an issue.


Don't get me wrong, I stil believe that lvl 4's and 5's should be better balanced so that there are less isk injection and more LP.

[poaw]

Except there's some logic behind it. Why should concord come blow up someone with great gusto because they shot a player, whereas OH HEY LOOK THERE'S A SANSHA INVASION LET'S ... eat donuts, I don't care.

Lorewise, yeah kinda, but from a gameplay standpoint you'd have effectively removed turned incursion constellations into ghost towns. People would be justifiably mad, in the exact same way I'd be mad if CONCORD showed up in random constellations in 0.0 for a week at a time. They can easily explain away their non-interference policy in the same way they explain why CONCORD doesn't rape the belt rats in Jita. They don't have the resources to police everything everywhere so they spend most of their time regulating the interactions of the near omnipotent demigods that fly around doing most of the work.

I'd again like to point out that Incursions are "good" PvE content, they are only 25% of the injected ISK and that amount can't grow beyond a certain point because of the site spawn mechanics (unless CCP starts spawning more highsec incursions). Where most of the other faucets either a nowhere near their maximum potential payouts (anoms) or scale linearly with the numbers of players participating (missions).

[Lucas Quaan]

Two Step threw up some numbers on his blog.

Yes I know, those are the exact numbers that he got from Diagoras' twitter feed

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that a higher percentage of ISK probably came from bounties before Incursions (and those numbers are actually in the thread somewhere).

Of course there was a higher percentage from bounties back when Incursions didn't provide any ISK at all. What I'm asking is how much ISK, in absolute numbers, did bounties provide before incursions and did introducing them increase the total amount of ISK generated?

If we still generate the same total amount of ISK, it doesn't matter where it comes from. If total ISK generation increased with Incursions, then we have found the problem and likely source of inflation.

[Lucas Quaan]

I only run incursions twice a week, I don't need mountains of isk to run in 0.0. If a fleet comes up on jabber with an FC I like I'll drop incursions and log my main in. I'm in 0.0 for the fights and fleets, moreover my corp kicks people who don't run in fleets - I assume most do.

I don't think what you're talking about has anything to do with incursions, because before them people were running lvl4 missions or sitting in jita trading. Having a high sec alt making isk isn't a new thing. The problem you're talking about, I think, stems from two things a) making isk in 0.0 is boring, really boring and b) the content provide by alliances isn't making people want to log on

It does connect with what you do. If all those incursions were in low-sec or 0.0 you could still make mad ISK, but do so in your space where roaming gangs could now come fight you for it. There is no problem running incursions in pvp fits, so you could even fight back properly if you wanted. Since the systems are cyno jammed it also means no risk of a hot-drop.

[jeffraider]

Nerf all incursions

half the tracking on the rats, and put them at like 5 scan res

lolz

peace

[Securitas]

Nerf all incursions

half the tracking on the rats, and put them at like 5 scan res

lolz

peace

I can't do incursions with my rifter so it must be OP. NERF!

[spamB0t]

vov, 1000 dudes getting 1million ISK each is a lot more damaging than 10 dudes getting 100million ISK each.

see: marginal propensity to consume

[Raketefrau]

Basic issue is:

Highsec isk > Nullsec isk.

Incursions are a major reason for this.

Remember when people mined?

[MpozoY]

vov, 1000 dudes getting 1million ISK each is a lot more damaging than 10 dudes getting 100million ISK each.

see: marginal propensity to consume

Actually it's the other way around. 1000 dudes getting a million isk are more likely to sit on it because a million isk doesn't buy you shit, which essentially means that isk doesn't exist. 10 dudes getting 100 million isk are more likely to spend it on some shit which flushes it around the economy. Eve doesn't have real-world constant consumption costs to drive MPC (unless you count ammo, which is essentially trivial.)

[Hilmar Keller]

It's actually less complicated than this, since ratting can't be considered wages and ship prices don't fluctuate with buying power, only with the mineral/moon goo supply. If I need to buy a fleet ship which costs 100 mil, I'm either going to rat for two hours at 50m/hour or for one hour at 100m/hour. I don't have a ratting schedule, nor do I have a monthly 'ratting wage' which determines what I buy and how much I'm willing to spend on it. If I need something, I work for it until I have it.

Incursions merely make this more convenient by reducing the amount of time I spend ratting and inversely increasing the time I spend pewing.

[spamB0t]

If I need to buy a fleet ship which costs 100 mil, I'm either going to rat for two hours at 50m/hour or for one hour at 100m/hour.

I'm guessing this kind of logic doesn't apply to a large portion of highsec bears though.

Eve doesn't have real-world constant consumption costs to drive MPC (unless you count ammo, which is essentially trivial.)

Yeah, which is why I'd like Turbefield to do a graph of ships exploded per active character per week over the last three years. Or alternatively how many plexes purchased were converted into game time over the last few years. I think those two figures would give a pretty decent picture of consumption.

Actually it's the other way around. 1000 dudes getting a million isk are more likely to sit on it because a million isk doesn't buy you shit, which essentially means that isk doesn't exist. 10 dudes getting 100 million isk are more likely to spend it on some shit which flushes it around the economy.

So you think it looks more like an S curve, where slope is high in middle incomes but flatter at either extreme?

[Warband]

Have to agree with Grath here. Incursions are a good feature but its dumb to have them in high-sec if you want people in 0.0. Average player can make far more ISK in empire than null. Normal player is in 0.0 to PVP, not make isk. Only botters are in 0.0 to make money.

[Ron Mexxico]

Lorewise, yeah kinda, but from a gameplay standpoint you'd have effectively removed turned incursion constellations into ghost towns. People would be justifiably mad, in the exact same way I'd be mad if CONCORD showed up in random constellations in 0.0 for a week at a time. They can easily explain away their non-interference policy in the same way they explain why CONCORD doesn't rape the belt rats in Jita. They don't have the resources to police everything everywhere so they spend most of their time regulating the interactions of the near omnipotent demigods that fly around doing most of the work.

I'd again like to point out that Incursions are "good" PvE content, they are only 25% of the injected ISK and that amount can't grow beyond a certain point because of the site spawn mechanics (unless CCP starts spawning more highsec incursions). Where most of the other faucets either a nowhere near their maximum potential payouts (anoms) or scale linearly with the numbers of players participating (missions).

there are no belts in jita

[domino]

It does connect with what you do. If all those incursions were in low-sec or 0.0 you could still make mad ISK, but do so in your space where roaming gangs could now come fight you for it. There is no problem running incursions in pvp fits, so you could even fight back properly if you wanted. Since the systems are cyno jammed it also means no risk of a hot-drop.

Not really, I'd not be interested in running incursions in 0.0 because frankly if you run one near me I'd try to kill you and I'm going to assume you'd do the same to me. There are safer ways to make isk in 0.0, the chances of you killing me whilst I run a plex is far far lower than you killing me running an incursion. Also unlike hisec incursions I'm not going to have to move my expensive incursion ships into red space to run one or two a week.

I always thought that if they wanted to buff 0.0 they could make making stuff, research etc easier up here.

I really don't think you'd see a huge increase in people running incursions in 0.0 if you could only do them there, people would just go back to trading, plexing and ratting.

[penifSMASH]

I didn't read this terrible thread but incursions aren't the problem; the problem is there isn't anything in null-sec worth doing for income that is single-boxable

[Viribus]

Actually there's really nothing worth doing that's triple boxable either when you factor in the time you spend looking for plexes and the fact you're using multiple accounts.

I used to triple box serpentis plexes with two T3s and a guardian and when we moved into fountain I'd scan nearly every single system in the region for complexes every day, then run every worthwhile one I came across. I spent about a week doing this and only three of the ten or so plexes I ran actually dropped anything worthwhile, amounting to about 2.5b over thirty hours of jewing, or 83m per hour for three characters. Which is less than I'd make if I just used one of those characters to blitz highsec L4s.

Maybe I'm just unlucky.