I would like to plus rep the guy that just neg repped me with a decent comment, but because you have removed the name of the repper, I will have to just rep everyone.
As Matos above you points out, the viability to fighting out of siege is up for debate, but the important part is that its actually possible, you can actively choose to fight out of siege.
Post change thats an option removed from the dread, probably the most under used ship in game behind the Pilgrim, without spending literally a titans worth of isk on yur dread fit (this is what the titans will have to do to hit subcaps, the problem with the nerf is that most titan pilots have already spent this money, whereas very few if any dread pilots will ever stack 20 dreads worth of mods on one dread).
It doesn't matter if any of you think fighting out of siege is smart or worth it (you should look at the numbers before forming an opinion), the point is its an option being removed from the game for absolutely no reason at all. Nobody was crying about dreads out of siege ruining their game play, why nerf them at all, when you can easily apply the nerf directly to Titans themselves without bothering dreads.
But just getting rid of them is probably the easiest solution.
I thought so too, but I dont know how to search for a user to rep, looked like far too much work.
I made it past 3 pages and didnt see him
don't get me wrong ships should definitively be balanced pvp wise over pve. and dreads rly need a buff over a nerf its just damn stupid to change anything that makes the dreads even the slightest worse then they already are.
iff ccp wanna get titans of the field making dreads worse is not exactly the way to go as they fill the same roll in sov warfare.
Its a slight Nerf to Dreads if you view it from that PoV. But I can't Imagine this change affecting the current usage of Dreads outside of extreme cases. Maybe PL had planned something along these lines?
They will still shoot other caps and Structures and suck against subcaps in most circumstances.
Also; enough with the split weapon naglfar. Fucking bullshit.
Lame triple sry
They can't fight out of siege anymore.
That might not seem like much to you, but by your own words you're currently unsubscribed to EVE, so who gives a shit if you think that role is under used or not, other people do in fact use them like that.
No you see PL have this theorycrafted unsieged dread fit which they've never actually deployed but they've given it a cat name, therefore unsieged dreads are the new AHAC, everyone uses them now, and if ccp make any changes which affect it they're turbohitler
Well thank God, because I was getting pretty worried that this would mean that Dreads couldn't shoot structures or supercaps or anything that they're used to do currently.
Did I get it all right?
Up until recently dreads would be dropped quite frequently around Syndicate and used to kill subcaps or gank carriers, being able to actually kill battlecruisers and batleships with transversal without the need of Vindicators for webbing was a nice bonus. RnK will quite often drop dreads to kill caps and do damage to heavily webbed Battleships, but being able to do damage while out of siege can be very important when the majority of your fleets damage comes from those dreads. The aditional tracking you get while out of siege can make a huge difference, as a Moros out of siege will still do 1500dps.
So basicly nerfing their out-of-siege tracking won't change much, but it does slightly decrease their use in smaller scale engagements.
You guys don't have to post here anymore. I'm not reading this thread anymore, so there's no point in continuing to post here and trying to impress me. You'll have to pursue my approval in other threads.
Just a heads up.
Easy John, you're dangerously close to making malcanis look dumber.
Next they'll be on about how Dreads shouldn't be able to hit sub caps, which strongly points towards the fact that they don't want sub caps to be touched at all by caps, but lets let their argument make the trip with them at the wheel, I think its more fun this way.
I just want a wordfilter that replaces "subcaps" with "hubcaps" and "supercaps" with "I am a faggot"
New title, same argument gogogo
Lousy tracking meant they weren't all that versatile. With the nerf now obviously this will work less as a fleet concept.
Edit: If you are a dumb nigger and don't believe this there are videos, including one form Gneeznow IIRC that shows this.
I am 100% on-board with deleting all titans and refunding the skills/minerals to the current pilots. To solve the problem of titan-bridges, just allow super-carriers to fit a bridge instead.
CCP has NEVER really had a good plan for how players should engage titans once they go from being extremely rare to showing up a nightly basis in double digits.
Even when they were rare, I never found them fun to fight against - especially under jammers. The meat-grinders of the mid 2000's probably turned as many people off from playing Eve as the ugly noob ships everyone is so excited about fixing.
Why do this now? Let's face reality, the odds of CCP coming up with some amazing new role that makes all the current pilots happy without pissing off people who hate titans are slim to none. Everyone is going to be mad if the eventual revision of Titans makes them either worthless junk or - worse still - just as good as before.
Therefore, the only way to avoid long-term resentment from the community is for CCP to ride the wave of tears from both sides (the emo titan owners and the bitter sub-cap lovers) and make a bold change that will resolve this damned topic once and for all.
I think most people would agree to this. The problem is CCP knows that making titans quasi-mandatory in 0.0 progression equates to more accounts.
So, yo, there's practically zero chance CCP is gonna pull titans out of the game. I mean really, they've already got art and stuff, it's content, someone got paid for it. They're staying hth. So what would be the second best alternative to nuking the site from orbit? You know, hilariously awesome as the idea is.
I saw XXL guns suggested (seems like a good way to make changes specific to titans without assfucking dreads), removal of weapon bonuses and probably a few other things. Nobody suggested an EHP nerf, which means it'd either completely neuter them or be totally useless.
I guess what I'm asking is what role would
A) work for titans in a way that'd be fun for current titan pilots
B) wouldn't suck cock for us plebes
C) would be acceptable to CCP
Rhetoric sometimes (SUPAR UNDARSTATAEMENTATOS) gets vicious around here, but I doubt anyone seriously wants to double plus unfun the game of the titan users, and I doubt anyone wants to faceroll subcaps all day long every day -- maybe for a few days, only human, but everyone knows the best fights are the ones where the outcome is uncertain til the last minute. And if someone wants either, well, they're a chucklefuck and should be sterilized.
TBH I can't come up with dick, which is why I'm asking. I think the likely CCP choice is nuking titan dps down to dread DPS and increasing the ROF of DD somewhat or giving them a siege mode. That's a plausible outcome that refocuses the thing on capships, which seems to be what many people want, whatever the original intention of CCP (SERIOUSLY SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT IT IT DOESN'T MATTER EVER). But I'm guessing that both are dumbfuck ideas or someone would have suggested them already.
@Manny: You suggested anyone other than the lazy should be able to take down titans by now. I think you're forgetting that middle of the road alliances should be able to fight and maybe take some sov (but not lots). Time frame for them to compete against titan blobs held by top four coalitions is a bit long, you think? Maybe you don't think that.
There are lots of things wrong with the null game atm, but I think maybe arguing laziness is a silly way of fixing it. I'd posit that people have been very actively attempting to find ways of dealing with titan blobs. CFC certainly has, and they went for titans of their own. Doesn't that say something, seeing as they are superserious supernerds.
I could be tots wrong (I often am). So what would you do as a titanless alliance of plebes without sov to take down a titan horde? Serious question. I think the answer is "get titans" but I am not supers smartsies.
Also I am seriously fucking lazy, which is why I drink and game a lot. Suck it dry!
What a shitty change. Titans should be bad-ass viking ships, not pussy sit-at-pos-and-smoke-weed support!
This just in (5 hours ago): CCP Nozh' devblogs from 2009 is the exact stance of CCP forever.
I'm not a supercap pilot and I don't do a lot of fighting against them either, so this is not a gotcha setup rhetorical question, but what exactly is the game mechanic raison d'etre for the remote ecm burst?
Fucking one percenters
titans should be 70m ehp T20 links boosters
see what i did there
I saw (unsieged, I assume) dreads dropped on AHAC gangs before. Dreads were never as versatile as carriers for escalating impromptu PVP, and the drone nerf took away a significant chunk of their subcap fighting abilities. Unplanned small-gang capital dropping is greatly diminished these days already just from the overproliferation of titans and the commensurate risk of a doomsday counterdrop. It's a touch ironic that all these whacks to supers seem to keep hitting dreads.
Dread roles need a look at; right now they're outclassed by supers at shooting everything but a POS and their one potential niche - fully insured suicide drops on supers - is of extremely limited value. But balancing dreadnaughts is of little value while you've still got two common ship classes purpose-built to go through dreadfleets like a fat kid through cake.
Here is my not very well educated opinion on how it should work.
Dreads (in seige) should be the be all and end all of structure shooting. They should be much better at it than supercaps or subcaps. Then everyone is using them all the time to avoid structure shooting time sink. They should have a secondary role of shooting other caps. The real issue is making them better at shooting structures without making them op against supers/carriers/each other. The best i could come up with would be making seiged dreads ignore resistances on structures (playing with structure resists/hp to find a balance)..
Supers should the ultimate cap killers, hopefully with plenty of targets if dreadfleets are more common thanks to being much better at securing sov or moon goo than either supers or subcap fleets. This means DD staying the same, fighterbombers staying the same, titan guns staying the same (post tracking nerf) get rid of the terrible scan res/locked targets nerf. Remote ecm burst doesn't make much sense in this role, maybe change it to be anti dreads/titans in some way. Other anti-cap stuff like the often wished for sig dependant capital neuts could be added. Supers can retain a secondary use against structures but are not as good at it as dreads.
Carriers are basically for protecting other caps from subcaps, whether through RR or fighters/drones.
Sub caps murder dreads or supers that aren't protected by their own subcaps and or carriers. They should be comparitively poor at struture shooting, even in large numbers. Taking sov without deploying dreads or supers should suck. Really suck.
I've ignored the logistics/bonus abilities of titans/carriers as they are separate issues really.
TLDR give Dreads a big buff against structures, nerf subcaps against structures, maybe buff supers against caps a little to make up for being useless against sub caps. Oh and get a proper sov system and balance moon goo at the same time. Hopefully people need to use cap fleets to take sov or moon goo income, need sub caps on the field to protect them, need supercaps to kill cap fleets but need subcaps to neutralize the enemies subcaps so they dont all die as well.
Among the problems in that wall of text are, structure shooting is stupid, CCP knows structure shooting is stupid, optimizing a ship class to shoot structures while dying horribly to any resistance is stupid. You can already one-cycle a tower, hub or station with a fairly small dreadfleet, buffing that is pointless. The coming tech nerf should greatly reduce the need to shoot POS, and other structures are far better shot with supercarriers/titans or subcaps already, none of which have the vulnerabilities of a sieged dreadfleet.
The appropriate role for dreads is and always has been capital killing, but this was usurped with the super changes. There is no need to have multiple capital classes with a DPS delivery role, and there is no way you will see sizable dreadfleets in a situation where hostile DPS-dealing supers can drop, except as suiciders, or bait.
I really just think all titans and supercarriers should be deleted from the game with no refund of minerals, skills or isk. You had your fun (I did too), now it's over. Maybe give them some special in-game item, a unique dreadnought or respectively.
nerf the rogue drone minerals at the same time.
I want to see panic and chaos. Also, death2allsupercaps.
We all keep assuming CCP is going to nerf tech when experience tells us they prefer to let problems fester as long as possible.
So that the middle ground gets fielded to deal with the other two extremes.
IDK either, making a ship designed around capital combat when there currently isnt really any capital combat doesn't sound right. Id rather fade the different classes into each other functionally, layered combat if you will that attracts the next class of ship up.
Sub caps engage sub caps, one side starts to buckle, caps are brought in for that side as a rally point and hitpoint soak, the carriers taking over for the broken logistics, the dreads dropping into siege to secure the landing area, the other side can now counter with its own caps or escalate straight to supercarriers and so on until titans hit the ground and its full scale cap warfare.
I don't think you'd find a titan pilot around who would mind being restricted to cap only warfare if there was a reason for people to want to use caps so they'd have something to fight.
They're not the only ones who have looked at it, its the only thing left in EVE with guns on it thats not a titan and a line member can get into that has the chance to stand up to 300 maelstroms worth of alpha.
It works, I mean it was literally in our forum dump that was here.
if you want to fix titans, just remove their blueprints. That turns them into the rare unicorns CCP intended them to be from day one, and keeps them around so people with the bigger-is-better mentality can strive to ride one.
"Every rifter counts friend" - VR
I agree that dreads should have -some- damage capability again subcaps, even if just giving them their drones back, but trying to make them a less versatile carrier won't do any good if you can just bring more carriers. Carriers don't suffer the versatility problems that dreads do, they're quite competent at ratting, repping and personal logistics, so they remain quite common. Dreads have a role and do it well, the problem is overlap in that role with more versatile ships, giving it more overlap with another versatile class isn't the way to get bigger fleets.
Grath, you've made the argument that supers should not be vulnerable to subcaps before, but it makes no sense outside of a further "I win" button for super pilots and heavy coalitions. First of all, it makes no more sense to make a titan invulnerable to battleship guns than it does to make a BS invulnerable to a swarm of frigates. Second of all, super vulnerability is already vastly reduced (excessively, I think) by being invulnerable to regular tackle and ewar. Last, and perhaps most importantly, making a ship vulnerable only to a class it is purpose-designed to buzzsaw through is obviously broken. Even with the lock nerf, how quickly can a titan fleet go through dreads? If the nerf mattered, three a minute per titan? Drop on a 20-titan fleet suicide short range and you're still all dead before your first siege cycle goes through. How many groups can risk a loss like that? If you remove the ability of welpcanes or Tempests to scare off a super fleet then they'd operate against structures with even more impunity than they do today.