Opti comes out of the closet, Goonswarm Declares Victory

[Arrador]

It wasn't the perfect crime. He was repped up by the former NC, particularly Blazde and Arrador. Opti has claimed to be in BL for almost a year (except for a short period where we disbanded and he no longer said he was in BL) even though he's just some goon named Calmoto.

Oh no. Opti is like a broken watch and a blind squirrel. I only repped the occasional good post. The reason he's green now, is back when he was solid red and wearing it like a badge of courage, most of the forum posters back then decided to strip him of his red badge of courage.

The only circle jerk I'm a member of, is a few bros in AIF that don't post that much and dbrb when there was a negrep campaign against him.

Edit: He of course tried to play the "Guise, it was all just a troll" card later http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread...l=1#post280916

[Dental Floss]

Ok, I'll give you that. Though I believe there are some flaws in your story, such as the words "Opti" and "good post" being collocated.

[Arrador]

Ok, I'll give you that. Though I believe there are some flaws in your story, such as the words "Opti" and "good post" being collocated.

Even a blind squirrel can trip over an acorn, and a broken watch is right twice (or once) a day.

He's actually on my ignore list.

[no dice]

Yes, but they hate pasty white nerds such as yourself.

In fact, in Australia this is the type of bloke they like.

Hey bra, Oz is now the land of the white/yellow/maybe half indian nerd.
DEvolution as seen below...

[MandozerTheGreat [banned]]

Hey can you nerds stop talking and fucking up your descriptions of game mechanics ITT because I don't have enough rep to give out to mfume for dumpstering you guys. Its a massacre, its worse than My Lai because you dudes don't get it and I wish you would.

[no dice]

hey bra, im a monkey, I dont need to worry about game mechanics cause my brosefs got that shit covered.
Being a horrible meatshield is all I gotta worry about, been dope since PB foo...

[MandozerTheGreat [banned]]

also fuck all dbrbs

[Player of no importance]

So is everytime a supercapital ship dies anywhere in the North going to spawn 6 pages of misguided discussions of people shouting at each other about titan/super balancing?

This is going to be a long war...

[no dice]

nosir all is good, I hear titans are being *fixed*

[Marivauder]

So is everytime a supercapital ship dies anywhere in the North going to spawn 6 pages of misguided discussions of people shouting at each other about titan/super balancing?

This is going to be a long war...

This has always happened and always will happen

[syndic thrass]

Lol three died the other day and we aren't at 18 pages yet so l2count nigger

[syndic thrass]

Also I have no fucking idea how any of this shit works because when I started playing this shit game I was 13 and read those formulas and was like "lol why are those two's bigger and up there like that" now I just pay attention when Grath posts shit about Eve maths.

tl;dr
be little, go fast in a circle: dont get hit.
be big, go slow not in a circle: die.
be small go straight at or straight away: die.

EDIT: that knowledge (lack thereof) makes me not very different from most the other chucklefucks in this thread.

[no dice]

srs queshtun: why is every1 so mad?

Have any of you thought of like, teaming up and winning eve and transcending to the next level to win that too?

[syndic thrass]

Your posting makes me mad. No troll at all, can someone actually give a good breakdown of how damage works. I hardly understand how falloff works.

[Kazanir]

Yeah hold on a sec Syndic.

[jimmychrist]

Your posting makes me mad. No troll at all, can someone actually give a good breakdown of how damage works. I hardly understand how falloff works.

Well you see you start forming fifteen minutes before announced time, leave an hour after announced time, spend twenty five minutes waiting on a titan that keeps getting bumped by retards who after three years in null still cannot figure out how not to warp at zero on the erebus, then you jump in and get murdered by Pandemic Legion and then you buy new implants. That's essentially it. The actual formula is not exactly like that but it all works out to the same thing.

[no dice]

google wins syndic thrass
[spoiler=damage stuff]Falloff is a hit chance calculation mechanic. Your damage relies on that hit chance, but is a slightly different (and vastly simpler) thing.

The hit chance formula is:
0.5^([angular/tracking + sig_res/sig_rad]& + [max(0,range - optimal) / falloff]&)

This formula can be divided into two part: the part that deals with tracking (marked in red) and the part that deals with falloff (marked with green). If both of them are zero, the hole thing comes out as 0.5^0 = 1, and you hit chance is 100%.

It works like this: if you have no tracking (angular velocity is zero), the whole red term comes out as zero and no longer matters – it now becomes a question of how far into falloff you are. If you're below optimal range, the green term comes out as zero, and if not, it gives you a percentage of how far into falloff you are, squared.

The whole "50% at falloff" notion comes from the fact that, assuming once again that you have no effects from tracking, and your target is at optimal + falloff range, the green term comes out as (falloff/falloff)& = 1, and the formula as a whole becomes 0.5^(0 + 1) = 50% hit chance. At 2+ falloff, the green term comes out as (2+falloff / falloff)&=4, so your hit chance even against a non-moving target is 0.5^4 = 6.25%…

The damage calculation, on the other hand, works like this: once the game has the hit chance, it rolls a die – if it comes out lower than the hit chance, you hit for [the die roll + 0.5] as your damage multiplier (often called "hit quality"), which is applied to the base damage of your turrets to determine the final damage to the target. You also always have a 1% chance to score a wrecking hit. This means that, within optimal and with no tracking, the die can come out as anywhere between 0 and 1 and still score a hit, which means that the normal hit quality can come out as somewhere between 0.5 and 1.5. At falloff range, only die rolls between 0 and 0.5 result in a hit, meaning that your hit quality can only sit in the range 0.5–1. In other words, the damage calculation is a simple die roll that is capped by your hit chance.[/spoiler]
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage

[Dental Floss]

BTW, for this whole debate where some people think that titan tracking seems to work like magic and that there is no difference in the tracking between XL turrets and small autocannons, I'll be the dickhead who lays down some numbers that no one will actually read anyway.

XL Hybrids/ACs, the best tracking of any XL turret: .005

1200mm Artillery II: .011

Now let's factor in those blasted tracking mods. http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12842432 -- Enoch Dagor, blapper of many things including a hound (http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12200814), a sabre (http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12127926), oh, and a merlin (http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12011360).

With his mods and scripts, he should be given approximately 65% more tracking on top of his base tracking (including stacking penalties), plus 25% from motion prediction 5, for a total of .01034 tracking speed.

Now for the standard goon maelstrom with 2 tracking enhancers, you get .01619 tracking including motion prediction 5 and stacking penalties.

That's .016 tracking compared to .01. So the goon maelstrom can track better but still can't hit our tengus when we get transversal and they have no webs. The standard AB tengu has approximately 170m sig. The rifter has 35m.

What does this mean? If an AB rifter was hit by a titan, it wasn't moving or had 0 transversal. It's impossible to do otherwise. If you look at Enoch's kill history of 1000 or so kills, most are pos modules, some are battleships, and there's <10 frigates. Of those battleships, you shouldn't be surprised they're getting blapped by titans. The same goes for your perma MWD drakes. Of the frigs, the hound probably didn't realize he was decloaked and got blapped, the dictor was probably burning directly at him (as most dictors do) and got blapped, and then the merlin took 0 damage from him.

TL;DR, unless you think titan pilots are somehow hacking the game, the only reason they're killing small stuff is because of the incompetence of the pilots of the small stuff. The question shouldn't be whether or not they can hit a dram or daredevil, because they can't. The question should be why 50 of them can destroy a 300 man bs fleet single handedly, and that begs the question exactly what CCP was thinking when they decided to make titans complete rapetrains to BS.

I'd also like to point out that Sala Cameron had been blapping BS at 0 transversal for years before NCdot, Raiden, and PL started doing it, but for some reason, it was OK when he was doing it.

[courthouse]

Wait, someone said that someone else doesn't understand about gun tracking on the internet, better check the wiki.

Attachment 2713

Fuck yeah, I got this

[Kazanir]

Basically, your to-hit chance with a turret depends on two factors:

1: Your range factor which I'll call R. This is "how many falloffs are you away from your target, squared." That means if the guy is in optimal, your R-factor is 0. If he is 1 falloff away, it is 1. If he is two falloffs away, it is 4. You divide before squaring, so if you have opt=20 falloff=10 and the dude is at 25km, he is .5 falloffs away and your R-factor is .5^2 = .25. Save your R-factor for later.

2: Your tracking factor which I'll call T. Four parts go into this: Gun sig, ship sig, target angular velocity, and gun tracking. Multiply your gun's sig by the target's angular velocity first (angular=transversal/distance) and then divide by the target's sig and your gun's tracking speed. Once you have this number, square it. That's T.

Now you add up R and T. The overall to-hit chance of your gun is .5^(R+T).

What this means in layman's language is:

- If your gun tracks as fast as a target is moving (size being equal) you will hit about half of the time.
- You'll hit a stationary target at 1 Falloff range about half of the time.
- Painting a target for 40% is the same as effectively buffing your tracking by 40% since all of those things are multiplied together.
- If a target isn't moving at all it doesn't matter how big your gun is, you'll hit it.
- You can stack a bunch of stuff together -- webs, TPs, tracking comps, Drop Boosters -- for resiliency against fast-moving/low-sig ships or against titan nerfs

[Marivauder]

Out of the 4 explanations about tracking i've come down to Courthouse hit the nail on the head

[Kazanir]

I'd also like to point out that Sala Cameron had been blapping BS at 0 transversal for years before NCdot, Raiden, and PL started doing it, but for some reason, it was OK when he was doing it.

Because when a huge grip of titans is used to determine the outcome of every strategic event in EVE, it is more noticeable than when Sala sits on the Taisy gate and explodes random faggots? This doesn't seem ALL that complex really. :P

[Endie]

White tried to DD a dread just before he entered structure. But thanks to tidi the DD didn't hit in time.

Tidi made no difference. He'd have taken damage that much faster, too, without it, and died sooner in real time. Tidi just gave him more time to come to terms with his mistakes and compose a commendably upbeat piece on his misfortune.

[Grath]

Enoch Dagor, blapper of many things including a hound

Wasn't even a tracking fit he died in either, its like some hodgepodge of tank/dps/little tracking sprinkled in on the top.

[Doddy]

A bit besides the discussion, but it's quite possible that this happened during WW2. I've read that battleships used their main guns at their lowest elevation to create giant water columns, smashing incoming torpedo bombers.

The japaneese actually designed anti-aircraft shells for the yamato classes main guns which basically worked like a giant shotgun. Still given that ww2 battleships had secondary armament for destroying both surface and aerial targets and tertiary dedicated anti-aircraft weapons they didn't really need to bother shooting aircraft with main guns. Eve is not like RL cos in RL a titan would have thousands of weapons specifically designed for blapping small shit.

[syndic thrass]

Basically, your to-hit chance with a turret depends on two factors:

1: Your range factor which I'll call R. This is "how many falloffs are you away from your target, squared." That means if the guy is in optimal, your R-factor is 0. If he is 1 falloff away, it is 1. If he is two falloffs away, it is 4. You divide before squaring, so if you have opt=20 falloff=10 and the dude is at 25km, he is .5 falloffs away and your R-factor is .5^2 = .25. Save your R-factor for later.

2: Your tracking factor which I'll call T. Four parts go into this: Gun sig, ship sig, target angular velocity, and gun tracking. Multiply your gun's sig by the target's angular velocity first (angular=transversal/distance) and then divide by the target's sig and your gun's tracking speed. Once you have this number, square it. That's T.

Now you add up R and T. The overall to-hit chance of your gun is .5^(R+T).

What this means in layman's language is:

- If your gun tracks as fast as a target is moving (size being equal) you will hit about half of the time.
- You'll hit a stationary target at 1 Falloff range about half of the time.
- Painting a target for 40% is the same as effectively buffing your tracking by 40% since all of those things are multiplied together.
- If a target isn't moving at all it doesn't matter how big your gun is, you'll hit it.
- You can stack a bunch of stuff together -- webs, TPs, tracking comps, Drop Boosters -- for resiliency against fast-moving/low-sig ships or against titan nerfs

While other definition was more technical (read: c/p from the wiki) this actually cleared a lot up for me. Thanks man.

[Viribus]

Wait, someone said that someone else doesn't understand about gun tracking on the internet, better check the wiki.

Attachment 2713

Fuck yeah, I got this

That graphic is also wildly inaccurate because the orbiter has the same angular velocity relative to the orbitee as vice-versa. Assuming the incursus(?) and rifter have the same tracking, they would both be missing each other.

[Adri]

^ is that a rifter, or Opti?

[Scotch]

USE MISSILES

AVOID PROBLEM

[Malcanis]

Oh no. Opti is like a broken watch and a blind squirrel. I only repped the occasional good post...

Rep the post, not the poster

[Mfume]

Wasn't even a tracking fit he died in either, its like some hodgepodge of tank/dps/little tracking sprinkled in on the top.

you can understand my apprehension when you flat out denied that any tracking fit titan would have tank mods beyond a DC2 (maybe eanm as well) and yet we were still exploding to this dude.

[courthouse]

That graphic is also wildly inaccurate because the orbiter has the same angular velocity relative to the orbitee as vice-versa. Assuming the incursus(?) and rifter have the same tracking, they would both be missing each other.

Base stats, not taking skills into account.

Light Ion Blaster I Trackingspeed/Accuracy: 0.4032 rad/sec
200mm AutoCannon I Trackinspeed/Accuracy: 0.315 rad/sec

[ihaveahelmet]

hth

so blob = square of the hypothenuse?

nerf triangles, buff icosahedrons

[Kazanir]

That graphic is also wildly inaccurate because the orbiter has the same angular velocity relative to the orbitee as vice-versa. Assuming the incursus(?) and rifter have the same tracking, they would both be missing each other.

Yeah but their physics suck ass. What can you do?

[Viribus]

Base stats, not taking skills into account.

Light Ion Blaster I Trackingspeed/Accuracy: 0.4032 rad/sec
200mm AutoCannon I Trackinspeed/Accuracy: 0.315 rad/sec

Minmatar Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret damage and 7.5% bonus to tracking per level.

Also that gif was made before the blaster buff

The point it's trying to get across is that a ship orbiting around another ship doesn't suffer damage penalties from angular velocity, while the ship being orbited does. That's just wrong. Doubly wrong since it's misinforming newbies about how tracking works. Maybe this is the root of tgr and DBRB's poor grasp on tracking mechanics?

[Mfume]

It'd make sense if it was a Rifter orbiting a battleship.

[penifSMASH]

Minmatar Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret damage and 7.5% bonus to tracking per level.

Also that gif was made before the blaster buff

The point it's trying to get across is that a ship orbiting around another ship doesn't suffer damage penalties from angular velocity, while the ship being orbited does. That's just wrong. Doubly wrong since it's misinforming newbies about how tracking works. Maybe this is the root of tgr and DBRB's poor grasp on tracking mechanics?

you act surprised that someone whose only PvP experience is orbiting an anchor and and mashing F1 is bad at EVE or has no basic knowledge of game mechanics

[fat libertarian [banned]]

i dont know if this has changed but goonswarm did a fucking horrible job of teaching newbies how to pvp or understand game mechanics. it's hard to understand stuff when all you're told to do as a newbie is to get into a rifter and get popped in 5 seconds in a 500 man fleet fight.the wiki's OK but not a substitute for actual experience. the only reason i got semi-decent at the game as a newbie was because i somehow tricked my way into blops and they were ok with my flying around with them in my shitty garbage artycane and blackbirds.

it's not surprising that when you get fcs and people in charge from that same pool of people they have retarded opinions based on poor understanding of how things actually work

[Ron Mexxico]

didn't boat not realize you could clear missile spam with smartbombs until like 3 weeks ago?

[anzoxe]

sig plays a part as well

if you guys want the formula~

Attachment 2716

another good thing to know is that range is hardcapped at optimal + 2x falloff, so after that nothing can ever hit.

some of this also applies to ewar shit(jammers, painters, tds).

[Dego]

Out of curiosity how many people yelling about titan tracking actually have a titan and have shot subcaps with it?

[anzoxe]

Out of curiosity how many people yelling about titan tracking actually have a titan and have shot subcaps with it?

maybe they've been shot by a titan in a subcap

[balmarog]

The japaneese actually designed anti-aircraft shells for the yamato classes main guns which basically worked like a giant shotgun. Still given that ww2 battleships had secondary armament for destroying both surface and aerial targets and tertiary dedicated anti-aircraft weapons they didn't really need to bother shooting aircraft with main guns. Eve is not like RL cos in RL a titan would have thousands of weapons specifically designed for blapping small shit.

Pffft no one would build a 15km space wang and think to put something like point defense on it.

[Mfume]

Out of curiosity how many people yelling about titan tracking actually have a titan and have shot subcaps with it?

i dont have a titan so all my experience comes from being raped

[Lorren Canada]

The japaneese actually designed anti-aircraft shells for the yamato classes main guns which basically worked like a giant shotgun. Still given that ww2 battleships had secondary armament for destroying both surface and aerial targets and tertiary dedicated anti-aircraft weapons they didn't really need to bother shooting aircraft with main guns. Eve is not like RL cos in RL a titan would have thousands of weapons specifically designed for blapping small shit.

And the Yamato still died to like 300 fucking bombers

[Aiden]

And the Yamato still died to like 300 fucking bombers

Obviously the solution is for the UN to nerf blobs.

[Kevin]

The point it's trying to get across is that a ship orbiting around another ship doesn't suffer damage penalties from angular velocity, while the ship being orbited does. That's just wrong. Doubly wrong since it's misinforming newbies about how tracking works. Maybe this is the root of tgr and DBRB's poor grasp on tracking mechanics?

Wut?

Are you saying in the Courthouse gif example the orbitting frig should get the same angular velocity penalty as the rifter?

[tokimi]

So is everytime a supercapital ship dies anywhere in the North going to spawn 6 pages of misguided discussions of people shouting at each other about titan/super balancing?

This is going to be a long war...

You must be new here, and clearly missed the 1000 some odd pages spawned by the NC '10 and '11 during all the drone land fun. By fun I mean eye gouging posts, and by posts I mean some one from NC and some one from PL each tried pissing on the keyboard to see who could short it faster.

[Kitty Vintner]

Wut?

Are you saying in the Courthouse gif example the orbitting frig should get the same angular velocity penalty as the rifter?

The angular velocity of both ships is the same relative to eachother.

[StevieTopSiders]

The angular velocity of both ships is the same relative to eachother.

This has something to do with the physics engine not tracking orientation, meaning that it wouldn't be able to account for the counter-rotating necessary to have the orbiting ship "predict" where the target would be and not get a tracking penalty.