Titan Rebalance 2012 - "Move the goalposts closer, I can't score"

[JDizzleton]

Reprocess and reimburse the lot of them. CCP devs had no idea the can of worms supers would become when they dreamed them up years ago. Make Dreads and Carriers the 'end-game' ship with faction versions or whatever.

[The Mittani]

Ever blapped a tengu before logis could lock it with a 500 man maelstrom fleet? An Abaddon?

It's your fault. You brought this about. You can try to deny it all you want, but it is the case. vOv

Ah, yes, the 'Titans = Maels' argument. Yet you don't see an out-of-cycle balance nerf against Maelstroms, do you. You see Maels dying every single day, don't you.

It's ok, I understand the desire to redirect blame. It's common enough among the pro-blap demographic. At least you're not doing this on an NPC corp alt, like all the RDN guys on eve-o.

[Opti]

Ever blapped a tengu before logis could lock it with a 500 man maelstrom fleet? An Abaddon?

It's your fault. You brought this about. You can try to deny it all you want, but it is the case. vOv

500 people are more important than 1

this just in

[MpozoY]

A supercap fleet without an accompanying support fleet is entirely useless at anything besides shooting structures or causing AAA to leave the field. Most of the times where we got lots of kills with supers was when we sandwiched them between a support fleet and a bunch of titans, giving our enemies nowhere to run. Even with a supercapital heavy fleet you still need a ton of dictors, hictors, anti-tackle t3, recons/bombers/cov-ops to provide cynos, scouts, etc. Any tight fleet comp plays to certain strengths and reduces the variety of ships fielded. We use less variety in our subcap fleets.

Most of the time the alpha maelstrom fleet doesn't even have a place of an armor tanking apoc (see how stupid this sounds?).

I still see Raidendot titan/super fleets flying essentially unsupported and buzzsawing through subcap fleets with impunity (at godawful butthole-o'clock hours our cap FCs sleep in). Raidendot basically holds sov still because they abused the shit out of titan imbalance, and it's no surprise they're frustrated insensate by the nerf; PL at least has the sense to add nuance to their PvP, and nuance to their complaints.

Also we use armor tanking apocs as antisupport pulse platforms, my main happens to be training large pulse lasers this very moment

[Some Market Dude]

Fuck it, "nerf" maelstroms (or arty, or proj, or whatever).

It'll be hilarious when it changes nothing and you're still crying over spilled titans.

...such a terrible argument.

[Stanpome]

You can't just make dreads and carriers the end game. There needs to be something very expensive, otherwise there will be even more RMT, which CCP cries and cries and cries about. You need something for people to spend their ISK on. And when you are just as good as we are, you don't lose ships fast enough to deplete your wallet. 8) And if something is gonna cost 60b+, it had damn well better be worth it, or what's the point of spending the ISK?

[Kitty Vintner]

less supers = more RMT

[Some Market Dude]

"Give me superweapons or I'll RMT!"

Holy shit. We've reached a new level of terrible arguments.

[Stanpome]

If I had billions and billions of ISK and a titan, I'd RMT it. >.>

[Centra]

Here is an idea: A titan has no offensive capability. Instead, for any damage applied to any ship in the fleet, before resists, 10-30% or so of that damage (based on some titan skill) is applied instead to the titan itself, before the titan's own resists. Titan must be on grid, can be in a POS (still takes the redirected damage), can be repped. No titan with <95% of shield/armor/hull can swap out of fleet booster, and logoffs remain in the slot (and continue to take damage) until they disappear from space. Warping off or otherwise leaving grid cancels the damage redirect (you still can't swap out of fleet booster.)

Someone explain the flaws in this, I'm sure there are some real ones and not just elite PvP wanking (the Rag is probably fucked)

E: also this could be a nerf to "the blob" since the damage from one bombing run multiplied by 200 hulls could be laffo to your booster

Erebus gives damage buff and has moderate tank.
Avatar soaks damage and has huge tank.
Leviathan gets AOE Shield Burst which boosts fleet ships within a certain radius.
Ragnarok gets whatever bonus a Rogue gets in WoW.

[The Mittani]

You can't just make dreads and carriers the end game. There needs to be something very expensive, otherwise there will be even more RMT, which CCP cries and cries and cries about. You need something for people to spend their ISK on. And when you are just as good as we are, you don't lose ships fast enough to deplete your wallet. 8) And if something is gonna cost 60b+, it had damn well better be worth it, or what's the point of spending the ISK?

An excellent example of the kind of entitled attitude that saw blap Titans wipe out Eve-uni fleets, RvB fleets, CCP fleets, et cetera.

You misused your toys. Now your toys are going to be taken away - yet it's not /your/ fault, oh no, it's everyone else's fault. Ha ha.

[Kanloch]

Sure is a whole lot of mad cap pilots in here and not a lot of actual discussion or counter points.

hint: nerfing slayer of 'the blob' is not a valid counter point

[Jones Bones]

How often do you die sitting on the osoggur gate blaping haulers?

And how often do I cry that "No one will fight me boo hoo hoo!". I also think the ability to scoop aggressed ships into an Orca/Carrier is retarded. I have posted so on here and on EVEO. I think this balance is ham fisted and does not get to the source of the problem. However, as much as you guys are crying and posting TLDRs I can't wait for the next chapter.

The Nerfings will continue until morale improves.

[Malcore]

Ah, yes, the 'Titans = Maels' argument. Yet you don't see an out-of-cycle balance nerf against Maelstroms, do you. You see Maels dying every single day, don't you.

It's ok, I understand the desire to redirect blame. It's common enough among the pro-blap demographic. At least you're not doing this on an NPC corp alt, like all the RDN guys on eve-o.

Maybe if you put half of the effort into figuring out more ways to kill titans as you do posting to get them nerfed, you'd kill more of them.

Edit - I mean grath telkin has literally been giving out lessons for 6 months now.

[Kitty Vintner]

Maybe if you died more often you wouldn't be getting nerfed

[Jones Bones]

You can't just make dreads and carriers the end game. There needs to be something very expensive, otherwise there will be even more RMT, which CCP cries and cries and cries about. You need something for people to spend their ISK on. And when you are just as good as we are, you don't lose ships fast enough to deplete your wallet. 8) And if something is gonna cost 60b+, it had damn well better be worth it, or what's the point of spending the ISK?

So what you're saying is CCP needs to nerf isk fountains and Supers. God damn man, you're a genious. EMOPANTS FOR CSM!

First we need to get you ready for debates and the crazy old lady in the crowd questions. My first lesson for you will be supply and demand, specifically regarding RMT in EVE.

[Malcore]

And how often do I cry that "No one will fight me boo hoo hoo!". I also think the ability to scoop aggressed ships into an Orca/Carrier is retarded. I have posted so on here and on EVEO. I think this balance is ham fisted and does not get to the source of the problem. However, as much as you guys are crying and posting TLDRs I can't wait for the next chapter.

The Nerfings will continue until morale improves.

I think you're misunderstanding the discussion/trolling occurring in this thread,

[Elektrea]

You see Maels dying every single day, don't you.

You should of seen more titans die, but you have failed to adapt and instead adopted the stance that titans can't be killed no matter what. You have a knack for words and used this to radiate your feelings to the thousands of members in your coalition who blinded themselves with the same stance.

THEORY CRAFTING IS HARD ARGH.

[Endie]

You can't just make dreads and carriers the end game. There needs to be something very expensive, otherwise there will be even more RMT, which CCP cries and cries and cries about. You need something for people to spend their ISK on. And when you are just as good as we are, you don't lose ships fast enough to deplete your wallet. 8) And if something is gonna cost 60b+, it had damn well better be worth it, or what's the point of spending the ISK?

If I didn't know better I would suspect that you believe that when I give Johnny DroneSerb my 80 billion ISK for a new erebus the money magically disappears from the economy or he throws it down a well or something.

[FastJack316]

Reprocess and reimburse the lot of them. CCP devs had no idea the can of worms supers would become when they dreamed them up years ago. Make Dreads and Carriers the 'end-game' ship with faction versions or whatever.

Why the hell aren't there faction dreads and carriers? Capital ship machariels to waste money on are a great idea.

[Manny]

An excellent example of the kind of entitled attitude that saw blap Titans wipe out Eve-uni fleets, RvB fleets, CCP fleets, et cetera.

You misused your toys. Now your toys are going to be taken away - yet it's not /your/ fault, oh no, it's everyone else's fault. Ha ha.

Entitlement = Consumer demanding his/her monies worth? So on top of "King of Space" CSM Chairmen . Retired white collar attorney , Perfect haired LARPer , We now learn that you are a expert economist and are able to single-handedly redefine terms used in economics. Im in awe from now on I'm going to refer to you as the Onion because there are so many layers to the marvel that is you that 1 term can't encompass you anylonger.

[MpozoY]

Erebus gives damage buff and has moderate tank.
Avatar soaks damage and has huge tank.
Leviathan gets AOE Shield Burst which boosts fleet ships within a certain radius.
Ragnarok gets whatever bonus a Rogue gets in WoW.

I was thinking this tank thing would be on top of their existing fleet bonuses, and I'm not sure what that AOE shield burst is but it sounds more like what a supercarrier should do, but basically yeah

Maybe change their existing bonuses to boost damage (or ROF or something) to subcap hulls of the same race, Rag's shitty tank balanced out by the preponderance of Minmatar subcaps

[Dinique]

Manny, I see your concern but the problem you have is that of course CCP will favour the larger group in the long run. Whether through subs or through the proxy of plexes, every player pays them money to play. You're asking them to provide tools with which less subscribers can make more subscribers unhappy.

Goons go out there and sell the game of Eve Online to their friends on the SA boards. Since my last recruitment post we have gone from 2,500 to 3,500 waffe members, with old people returning as we tell them how the game is on the right path, and new ones being drawn in by the enthusiastic commentary of people posting in the thread in the downtimes between bouts of pointing and laughing at Ordo Garr. That's already the equivalent of 1/3 of all titan pilots cancelling their subs and walking away by itself. Allowing for churn, it's probably just over a hundred grand a year from extra subs (of which I see exactly zip )

According to Turbefield's stats a far smaller 10% increase across the CFC alone would replace the subscriptions of every titan pilot, both subbed and unsubbed, should they walk away and unsub forever. According to the figures cited by Jogyn then that same 10% increase across the CFC would pay for the cancelled subs of every single member of PL and NCdot put together. Woops!

The days when Eve was a hobby or a social experiment of its devs, or that they would change the game consciously to favour their playstyle or that of their friends, are gone. They want the person with 3 million skillpoints to be able to be hooked on the nullsec Great Game that keeps people playing for years, to get dragged into the storyline. And they know that that is virtually impossible when those players discover that their ship matters zilch as soon as 40 titans cyno in with a bunch of supercarriers to rep them.

Your alliance, NcDot and others don't want newbies, and that's cool. But it means you're not speaking to those two-week-old new players and you're not exposed to the Naked Lunch moment when they work out that they can do everything right, orbit the primary at the right range, stay out of smartbomb range on the primary, watch for yellow-boxing, broadcast for reps as soon as a lock is applied, and yet still absolutely inevitably die as soon as one single person just presses one button.

But we do talk to those people and we bring in a tidal flood of them to enliven the game and provide content and fund the development of new features and CCP are finally working out that if four or five hundred dudes, most of whom will in any case be burned out within 15 months, want to bleat about large "blobs" of paying customers having more fun than them then it's still going to be sayonara titans in the long run.

What a sunny future this game has, you realize how bleak this outlook is right?

I am still quietly praying that CCP hasn't gone full blown blob-pleasing (heh) because it might increase active accounts in the short term but it will kill this game fucking dead in the long term. Been playing 6 years, don't want a titan (yes I can afford one sup?) and I don't buy the "what else do bittervets have to do?" argument, but every time they kill off something in favor of something simpler that you can just throw a thousand random scrubs at (I'm not even talking about the titan changes) they are not only making this game worse for everyone (except empire dwelling mission runners of course), but they are actively taking away reasons for vets who are slightly competent to keep playing. And I mean they make the game worse for the scrub that wants to fly in a thousand man drake blob too, because eventually that's more or less all you'll have left. This game is so limited tactically already as it is. There is hardly any penalty to dying, another component that contributes to what makes EVE fun. Losing shit you worked hard for hurts and scares people away, but without it pvp is entirely meaningless and much less exciting. If the common denominator becomes the game design mantra in such a narrow scope this game is done for.

Your example, CFC, is a good example for the most part of a tactically bland group (what's up your tactics are 2 years old); who rely purely on logistics (piss easy donkey work since like 2007/8 -- guess what this is what contributes to titan proliferation the most) and sheer numbers to do everything. We're talking about a group that could be killing loads more of the offending supers/titans if they looked beyond the two and half doctrines they have been stuck on, but they don't even try. It makes the game boring. I am willing to bet we (PL) are better at keeping people interested in this game than the CFC is, and this is a big part of why. And no, most PL still don't have a supercap, nevermind a titan.

The current set of titan changes are just stupid and miss the point completely, and is just more proof that CCP hasn't the faintest fucking clue how they got 0.0 (and lowsec and pvp in general) to the state its in. This goes back further than Dominion. They're not doing shit to fix it because they were actually looking at Titans just now and thought that raping sigres and halving tracking fixes something. The fact that that mouth breather Greyscale, with such little understanding of the game and especially 0.0, is allowed anywhere near anything that even resembles game design is a joke (and the joke is on all of us). I wish I could say he lost the plot, but that would mean he once was somewhere near it.

On the one hand you have generating new customers, and on the other you have customer retention. Alienating your old customers, that have been footing the bill for years and providing predictable stable income, seems like a pretty stupid idea since this game doesn't lend itself well to a revolving door of new players at all. Even MMOs who are loads more newbie friendly don't last long that way.

I am ignoring empire in the above since hardly anyone would even look at this game without 0.0 drama.

[Jones Bones]

You should of seen more titans die, but you have failed to adapt and instead adopted the stance that titans can't be killed no matter what. You have a knack for words and used this to radiate your feelings to the thousands of members in your coalition who blinded themselves with the same stance.

THEORY CRAFTING IS HARD ARGH.

How many Super Fleets have you fought? Oh wait, you blued them all. No please, link all those SCs you killed that were ratting. Show us your Super Killing PROWESS.

[tgr]

You can't just make dreads and carriers the end game. There needs to be something very expensive

Why? Surely there would be more satisfaction in waging a good war, with lots of back and forth fighting, than just "I bot/ran incursions for 6 months, now I'm buying the most expensive ship in the game. Ok, I'm bored with that ship now, CCP needs to make a bigger ship because monetary inflation has made titans way too easy to buy.".

otherwise there will be even more RMT, which CCP cries and cries and cries about.

You do realize that just in the last year alone, the amount of available isk nearly doubled? That is, isk that is on active characters. There's a reason why that happened.

[Stanpome]

Shoulda listened to the Telkin. :\

[Kitty Vintner]

On the one hand you have generating new customers, and on the other you have customer retention. Alienating your old customers, that have been footing the bill for years and providing predictable stable income, seems like a pretty stupid idea since this game doesn't lend itself well to a revolving door of new players at all. Even MMOs who are loads more newbie friendly don't last long that way.

I am ignoring empire in the above since hardly anyone would even look at this game without 0.0 drama.

The newbie retention rate would go up if it weren't for you olde guarde assholes refusing to get a life

[Jones Bones]

I am ignoring empire in the above since hardly anyone would even look at this game without 0.0 drama.

We've gone from anger to something akin of "We are the creators of content, the game needs an elite class of player to drive content!"

News flash Mr. Hubris, the vast majority of EVE give fuck all about 0.0 drama. Just keep feeding us the moon goo to build T2 shit, thanks!

[Malcore]

How many Super Fleets have you fought? Oh wait, you blued them all. No please, link all those SCs you killed that were ratting. Show us your Super Killing PROWESS.

We've had super-cap brawls with almost every entity in EVE at one point or another.

[Dinique]

We've gone from anger to something akin of "We are the creators of content, the game needs an elite class of player to drive content!"

News flash Mr. Hubris, the vast majority of EVE give fuck all about 0.0 drama. Just keep feeding us the moon goo to build T2 shit, thanks!

0.0 is a big part of what attracts people to the game, even if most of them never go near it and end up in Motsu or wherever instead. People like being part of a game world where "big" things happen. I know for you its all about the pod kills but relax bro.

[Dinique]

The newbie retention rate would go up if it weren't for you olde guarde assholes refusing to get a life

wasn't true in 2006, not true today.

[Kitty Vintner]

wasn't true in 2006, not true today.

yuh huh

[Endie]

Entitlement = Consumer demanding his/her monies worth? So on top of "King of Space" CSM Chairmen . Retired white collar attorney , Perfect haired LARPer , We now learn that you are a expert economist and are able to single-handedly redefine terms used in economics. Im in awe from now on I'm going to refer to you as the Onion because there are so many layers to the marvel that is you that 1 term can't encompass you anylonger.

Manny you pay the same 15 bucks or whatever as anyone else. You're not entitled to fly invincible Winmobiles, any more than Joe Everyguy is for his 15 bucks.

What this reveals most clearly is that I don't know how much my 8 Eve subscriptions come to and now that I've had a guess I am slightly apalled.

[Kitty Vintner]

We've had super-cap brawls with almost every entity in EVE at one point or another.

and then you blued them and then supers got nerfed

I've heard this story

[Kitty Vintner]

should've fed the welp god a little more in retrospect

[Dinique]

and then you blued them and then supers got nerfed

I've heard this story

We did blue goons (sup super-friends) again lesson learned

[Dinique]

should've fed the welp god a little more in retrospect

you should have tried to do that good lord's work a bit more in retrospect

[Mik kyo]

What this reveals most clearly is that I don't know how much my 8 Eve subscriptions come to and now that I've had a guess I am slightly apalled.

Wait you pay for this game... with real money?

[Malcore]

and then you blued them and then supers got nerfed

I've heard this story

Whining about blues. How quaint.

[Kitty Vintner]

shouldn't have been so risk averse

should've dropped them on jump freighters solo

should've gotten drunk and flown them

should've had 15 or 20 lossmails to shove under ccp's nose when Mittens came a calling and his narrative wouldn't have fit like hand in glove

[Manny]

Manny you pay the same 15 bucks or whatever as anyone else. You're not entitled to fly invincible Winmobiles, any more than Joe Everyguy is for his 15 bucks.

What this reveals most clearly is that I don't know how much my 8 Eve subscriptions come to and now that I've had a guess I am slightly apalled.

Of course im not I have to train millions of skillpoints in very specialized skills equating to more than a year of dedicated training then I need to come up with the isk to buy one. But if I'm going to train that long for 1 ship and spend that kind of isk it better be damned good my Investement ?demands it.



Edit* Endie sense im replying to you care to address my post from page 7? Here is a link for you to help you find it: http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread...l=1#post377850

[Endie]

What a sunny future this game has, you realize how bleak this outlook is right?

I am still quietly praying that CCP hasn't gone full blown blob-pleasing (heh) because it might increase active accounts in the short term but it will kill this game fucking dead in the long term. Been playing 6 years, don't want a titan (yes I can afford one sup?) and I don't buy the "what else do bittervets have to do?" argument, but every time they kill off something in favor of something simpler that you can just throw a thousand random scrubs at... [snip]

There's sense in some of what you say but the solution is not the classic mudflationary mistakes that CCP made in the past of saying "wouldn't it be awesome to..." and then just increase every stat by 100.

As Manny pointed out I have more skillpoints than most of PL and, since I hang out with the Bat Country dudes as a kinda honorary member, I stave off bitter vetdom by taking perfectly normal ships that most people could straight-line to in a few months (I love lachesisesissii) on their cockfagging ops and fighting 60 dudes with 20 or whatever. I don't need to drop my supers on them, I don't even need to bring a cynabal or whatever: we use drakes plus support or canes plus support because then everyone will engage us. The challenge is to show how much better we are by fighting in the same ships the enemy are in, with far fewer, and winning. Well, usually winning.

When a chess grandmaster has played the game for five years he doesn't get a SuperQueen which can destroy everything standing on the same file. He just uses the same pieces, better. If he was really good at the game, he'd eschew such a piece even if it were offered.

[Dinique]

should've tried to kill them

should've bought a dreadfleet

[MpozoY]

Of course im not I have to train millions of skillpoints in very specialized skills equating to more than a year of dedicated training then I need to come up with the isk to buy one. But if I'm going to train that long for 1 ship and spend that kind of isk it better be damned good my Investement ?demands it.

Empire ratters invest a fucking shit ton of time and energy into their multibillion isk officer-fit Navy Ravens only to get burned down by a handful of shitfit gank brutixes

CCP gives zero fucks about your 'investment' when it comes to PvP, nor should they

[Malcore]

Empire ratters invest a fucking shit ton of time and energy into their multibillion isk officer-fit Navy Ravens only to get burned down by a handful of shitfit gank brutixes

CCP gives zero fucks about your 'investment' when it comes to PvP, nor should they

And yet even with all that isk it still pales in comparison to the effort and time it takes to get into a titan.

[Some Market Dude]

I do agree that vets are content drivers. However, when we're talking "content driving-vets", we're talking about a broad swathe of xx% of players, not the 0.00x% of people who give a shit about their nerfed titans. The idea that this will kill nullsec because of the <200 people who refuse to play without ownmoblies is absolutely farcical.

The obvious impact is that nullsec is suddenly more accessible to a huge number of players, since they don't have to worry about their shitty empire getting LOLBLAPPED over a weekend by 40 bored dudes in titans.

[tgr]

Of course im not I have to train millions of skillpoints in very specialized skills equating to more than a year of dedicated training then I need to come up with the isk to buy one. But if I'm going to train that long for 1 ship and spend that kind of isk it better be damned good my Investement ?demands it.

A titan was supposed to be an alliance-level asset, not a personal asset.

[Dinique]

There's sense in some of what you say but the solution is not the classic mudflationary mistakes that CCP made in the past of saying "wouldn't it be awesome to..." and then just increase every stat by 100.

As Manny pointed out I have more skillpoints than most of PL and, since I hang out with the Bat Country dudes as a kinda honorary member, I stave off bitter vetdom by taking perfectly normal ships that most people could straight-line to in a few months (I love lachesisesissii) on their cockfagging ops and fighting 60 dudes with 20 or whatever. I don't need to drop my supers on them, I don't eve need to bring a cynabal or whatever. The challenge is to show how much better we are by fighting in the same ships the enemy are in, with far fewer, and winning. Well, usually winning.

When a chess grandmaster has played the game for five years he doesn't get a SuperQueen which can destroy everything standing on the same file. He just uses the same pieces, better. If he was really good at the game, he'd eschew such a piece even if it were offered.

mudflation is exactly what I am not asking for. The state of the game is more than 6 years in the making, before the first titan was built. CCP have made things worse with nearly every change since.

Your second paragraph is pretty much what PL's been doing for years v0v

We don't have the space honoure required not to abuse broken mechanics, sorry.

[Kitty Vintner]

should've tried to kill them

should've bought a dreadfleet

it's okay that you don't know how to fly a super in a manner that you can lose it

you've been trained so long to be fearful with them and not leave the herd

but it's possible you can learn

dbrb can show you

[Arrador]

You only have ~3-4 months of history to talk about. The new aggression mechanics mean that a mistake with a supercap fleet could now spell disaster. How was a supercap bloodbath supposed to happen when they could all log off and limit their losses?

Lag, and no DD's in lowsec when uemon took place.