Goonswarm Shrugged - The Gallente Ice Interdiction

**Some Market Dude** · 2011-11-17

Originally Posted by Night

I'd assume that the Incursions tossing Isk everywhere have something to do with it as well, but can't be sure.

Yes, plex rises with inflation, which has picked up significantly with incursions.

**Quasi** · 2011-11-18

Originally Posted by fugazii

So not really on topic, but market nonetheless. Can people smarter than I explain to me why Plexs have jumped 100mil in 3wks? Numbers sold has held constant while supply has increased which doesn't make sense for an upturn in price.

You also have a group of MD "elite" who make their isk by speculating in the plex market every so often. If you search back through the old forums for a bit you see similar spikes come up. But, that's just a bit of it, the rest is there is a lot of isk floating around and the plex is Eve's form of Treasury bond, so no matter what happens in the market you have something that is worth something. Worse case you can use it to lose at Eve.

**Raketefrau** · 2011-11-18

For the record, I've been roaming IRC space for 3 days in a Hound, and have not seen a single Mack.

**Guillaume LeConquerant** · 2011-11-19

That's my experience too, didn't see a single Mack in IRC space in a few days.

Seems like in my area of empire only blues are left mining and they get all

when they get popped.

I love it.

**MartCo** · 2011-11-19

Took a whaling operation out this afternoon and popped a pair of orcas. Got a third down to an eighth of structure, it was well-tanked, so I gambled. Sometimes the pubbies win.

One of the orcas we killed then paid us 750mil isk for mining protection. Op success.

**Skinae** · 2011-11-19

What kind of fleets are used for taking down orcas?

**MartCo** · 2011-11-19

Originally Posted by Skinae

What kind of fleets are used for taking down orcas?

Battleships. We use predominately alpha tempest/maelstrom, but that's more because most of us can fly them with our alpha fleet doctrine. Artyapocs, pulsegeddons, blaster hyperions and blasterthons are also viable.

If you use alpha ships you can ignore the presence of concord, while close range pulse/blaster setups can pump out more overall damage. My fleet was probably mostly alpha, but I took anyone wanting to come.

**MartCo** · 2011-11-21

Looks like demand has decreased while some amount of supplies are coming in from ~somewhere~. I haven't quite figured out where. I suspect some enterprising group(s) have finally started mining in lowsec, Syndicate, or Outer Ring. Thorough scouting reports have indicated that, surprisingly, it is not IRC - I know, this is shocking to both you and me.

I've racked up a nice string of kills today, but I've also bolstered my income today by an additional billion isk through the sale of "Mining Protection."

Really, ganking a hulk or mackinaw is just the beginning. To give you an idea on how an initial gank can turn into 250, 500, or even 3 billion isk, here's an excerpt from a "typical" gank chain. This one ultimately didn't pan out (at the moment), but you'd be really surprised how many of them do. As always, read bottom to top:

It's kind of bothered me for awhile trying to figure out what could possibly possess someone playing a GAME to actually PAY in a blatant extortion scheme. Ultimately, what I've concluded is that they pay because it's EXACTLY what they would do if they had a large alliance full of bloodthirsty killers with a pile of technetium funding their antics. This is the extent of their vision for eve. If they had the power, the people, the isk, they would find a piece of the market to corner, take it over, and charge others for the right to participate in their scheme.

That's what makes them so vulnerable to "mining protection." It makes sense to them, it's what they would do if they had the power to. The fact that we regularly "lose" our protection list is unfathomable to them, because for them, scrabbling around mining in empire for 10mil isk an hour, it's their world.

Maybe I'm rationalizing here, but nothing else seems to really explain why there's a steady stream of empire residents lining up to toss isk at me. And I've got nothing on some of our smooth talkers who have been doing this awhile.

**Jacabon Mere** · 2011-11-21

What i have noticed after several years of playing, is that overall on average yanks are morons.

**Night** · 2011-11-21

Originally Posted by Jacabon Mere

What i have noticed after several years of playing, is that overall on average players are morons.

fyp

**Iratus** · 2011-11-21

Nah, you yanks do seem to have a bigger moron-to-human ratio.

**Fix Lag** · 2011-11-21

Posting to confirm I've only seen bait Mackinaws out in IRC space in the last few days. Nobody's mining...everyone that tried to died.

**ReallyMatter** · 2011-11-21

Posting to confirm I bought a ship that takes Oxytopes went to the market to get me some go go juice and was like ok whatever and moved on.

Needless to say my jump plan will cost me the hefty sum of 2,863,680 ISK one way, which I might add is much cheaper than the usual 4,500,000 ISK I normally pay a freighter hauling the same payload one way.

Why you had to mess with my gas type yo! I could of saved millions over the period of a year.

**Fix Lag** · 2011-11-21

What the shitfuck are you trying to say

e: besides that you can steal a shit gimmick [s]of mine[/s] that I didn't even come up with

**kermitfrog** · 2011-11-21

Originally Posted by Youtuber SA

Every single powerbloc outnumbered PL's Supercap fleet. If you had a problem with it look to your leadership for questions as to why you had no members willing or able to get into supercapitals. Goonswarm is one of the longest standing Alliances in the game now. I don't even like the concept of the ships beyond the size of Dreadnought/Carrier. It was a problem of using shit you dislike because everyone else is using it. People in PL loved using it against Goonswarm because it was the perfect grief tool as you would cry on every means of communication to the EVE community you had.

Thoughts?

**Kitty Vintner** · 2011-11-21

Didn't want to use those supercaps anyway.

**tgr** · 2011-11-21

Originally Posted by kermitfrog

Thoughts?

Yeah. There's absolutely no reason for him to twist the truth at all, so I'm positive that post is to be taken at its word.

**tgr** · 2011-11-21

Also, we get enough of penif's badposts here, we don't need his badposts reposted.

**DUUUUURK** · 2011-11-21

Originally Posted by MartCo

It's kind of bothered me for awhile trying to figure out what could possibly possess someone playing a GAME to actually PAY in a blatant extortion scheme. Ultimately, what I've concluded is that they pay because it's EXACTLY what they would do if they had a large alliance full of bloodthirsty killers with a pile of technetium funding their antics. This is the extent of their vision for eve. If they had the power, the people, the isk, they would find a piece of the market to corner, take it over, and charge others for the right to participate in their scheme.

That's what makes them so vulnerable to "mining protection." It makes sense to them, it's what they would do if they had the power to. The fact that we regularly "lose" our protection list is unfathomable to them, because for them, scrabbling around mining in empire for 10mil isk an hour, it's their world.

Maybe I'm rationalizing here, but nothing else seems to really explain why there's a steady stream of empire residents lining up to toss isk at me. And I've got nothing on some of our smooth talkers who have been doing this awhile.

They are doing exactly what shopkeepers would do when the mafia comes to collect their protection money. You pay or you get shut down. It's a normal human response to bullies. If you know you can't beat them you give them what they want so they will lay off on the bullying (a bit).

If someone is so naive to fall for the scam more than once then they're just being exactly that: naive.

**Endie** · 2011-11-21

Originally Posted by tgr

Also, we get enough of penif's badposts here, we don't need his badposts reposted.

That's Salastil. He's like penif but without the self-awareness.

**tgr** · 2011-11-21

Oh. So there might actually be a chance he actually believes what he says, then. Oh well.

**Skinae** · 2011-11-21

Originally Posted by Kitty Vintner

Didn't want to use those supercaps anyway.

What a good attitude sir.

**Malcanis** · 2011-11-21

So when is this campaign expanding to include the other kinds of ice?

**Fix Lag** · 2011-11-21

Originally Posted by Malcanis

So when is this campaign expanding to include the other kinds of ice?

Soon™

**MartCo** · 2011-11-21

Originally Posted by Malcanis

So when is this campaign expanding to include the other kinds of ice?

I honestly don't think we have the numbers at the moment to expand outwards. It's like 10 dedicated dudes shutting down Gallente space with another 15-20 people zipping in part-time between Delve ops.

So this may go past the winter expansion a few weeks just so that we can rape some of the smug supertank pubbies with the new T3 battlecruisers and gather the pubbie wails of "No insurance when concord kills you, why you still killing me?????" But after that who knows. We'll have had interdiction successfully up for about two and a half months at that point, which is much longer than even I expected it to last.

Also, for those of you curious, in the past week, I paid out about 5 billion isk in bounties. That's pretty indicative of our weekly burn rate and what it's costing the alliance to maintain this.

**Weaselior** · 2011-11-21

Originally Posted by MartCo

Looks like demand has decreased while some amount of supplies are coming in from ~somewhere~. I haven't quite figured out where. I suspect some enterprising group(s) have finally started mining in lowsec, Syndicate, or Outer Ring. Thorough scouting reports have indicated that, surprisingly, it is not IRC - I know, this is shocking to both you and me.

stockpiles from all over eve are getting pulled to jita: the large price spike last weekend lead to a ton of people freightering in cheap isotopes (well, cheap given our current prices) from all over into Jita. This seems to have stabilized somewhat but I didn't check market volume today to be sure - sell orders were down from ~100 to ~80 last I checked, with 90m units on the market (70m below 2k).

**Weaselior** · 2011-11-21

Originally Posted by MartCo

I honestly don't think we have the numbers at the moment to expand outwards. It's like 10 dedicated dudes shutting down Gallente space with another 15-20 people zipping in part-time between Delve ops.

Yeah, essentially right now we're coasting on the fact we've brutalized the region so badly only a few people dare venture in. Since only a few venture in, those mostly all die, keeping the fear alive. The initial orgy of violence to get numbers down to what is managable with a much smaller group of people was vital. Keeping our focus narrow enough we can maintain terror even with reduced numbers has been vital to our success, so we can't afford to throw that away.

**Raketefrau** · 2011-11-21

xDx & Co. has mack mining fleets out, I've seen KMs of 5-6 of them at a time.

**Malcanis** · 2011-11-21

Originally Posted by MartCo

I honestly don't think we have the numbers at the moment to expand outwards. It's like 10 dedicated dudes shutting down Gallente space with another 15-20 people zipping in part-time between Delve ops.

So this may go past the winter expansion a few weeks just so that we can rape some of the smug supertank pubbies with the new T3 battlecruisers and gather the pubbie wails of "No insurance when concord kills you, why you still killing me?????" But after that who knows. We'll have had interdiction successfully up for about two and a half months at that point, which is much longer than even I expected it to last.

Also, for those of you curious, in the past week, I paid out about 5 billion isk in bounties. That's pretty indicative of our weekly burn rate and what it's costing the alliance to maintain this.

10 guys locking down gallante ice, and you don't think you can lock down the others?

Yeah OK, I just bought a bunch of Heliotopes.

Dear Goons,

Please do the Amarr icebelts next

tyvm,

Malcanis

**Kevin** · 2011-11-21

I have heard of mining operations going on in Niballe, which is in the hisec island in Solitude. Comments such as, "The goons don't know about this icefield".

PS : Goons won't lock down other racial ice. They're too small. Too disorganised. Too...Goonish.

PPS: Yeah that's right i have stockpiles of heliotopes.

**Fix Lag** · 2011-11-21

Originally Posted by Kevin

PS : Goons won't lock down other racial ice. They're too small. Too disorganised. Too...Goonish.

38 pages and you conclude that goons are too small and disorganized to do something like that? Your analytical skills astound me.

**Fix Lag** · 2011-11-21

In fact they're so incredible that I'd be riverini would be willing to extend you a job offer.

**Kevin** · 2011-11-21

Originally Posted by Fix Lag

38 pages and you conclude that goons are too small and disorganized to do something like that? Your analytical skills astound me.

...

?

I hadn't realised I was being that clever. Clearly, my Machiavellian schemes are more subtle than I had realised!

Originally Posted by Kevin

PPS: Yeah that's right i have stockpiles of heliotopes.

Aha, look, a clue! This mystery will be solved yet!

**fugazii** · 2011-11-21

I remember reading somewhere earlier in this thread that there's a largish corp or maybe alliance that does nothing but mine ice in Syndicate. That was back when prices were well under 1k, I'm sure they've ramped up operations now.

**Planetary Genocide** · 2011-11-22

bully in ice field

From: leoplusma
To: HumAnnoyeD [HAD]

there was an incident with an idiot in ice field
he said to Bryan that one needs to get authorization in order to ice mine in misneden. LMAO.

so this is the guy Gorn Arming

i fixed corp standing against him

This made me lol. I almost wanted to call him a stupid faggot. But they don't like that.

**Kitty Vintner** · 2011-11-23

Gorn Arming is a goon hero; he faced off alone against twenty dreads in an ammoless rifter in his first fleet and held the field, tackling a sieged dreadnaught. Bravely killed PL's cyno purifier in his AML caracal during the first siege of 2TH overcoming his ship's massive EM-resist hole and the purifier's apparent afkayity with sheer pluck and tenacity.

**Kevin** · 2011-11-23

I hope he hasn't tried ganking in a caracal.

**Nicky D** · 2011-11-23

i stand corrected, goons seem to be having fun in highsec

**Sami** · 2011-11-23

Originally Posted by Kevin

I hope he hasn't tried ganking in a caracal.

This one time I was in an untanked T1 mining barge and got ganked by THREE caracals.

True story: I scooped their wrecks and made a profit.

If I can ever get my goddamn goonfleet.com access to actually fucking work I'm totally going to take up ganking. Just for the sheer comedy factor I'm thinking of making a go at it on my industrialist alt with the +5 security standings if I find worthwhile targets. Docking up if redsec in local won't fucking save you, ice miners.

That, or use my high-standings, carebearish, no-Goonswarm-associations alt to start a "mining corp" for purposes of "banding together" to "set up mutual protection against the GEWNEES" and use that to grief the fuck out of every one that joins.

**ZombyDog** · 2011-11-23

Originally Posted by Fix Lag

38 pages and you conclude that goons are too small and disorganized to do something like that? Your analytical skills astound me.

Man it's like I timewarped back to 2006.

**Kevin** · 2011-11-23

I especially enjoyed the drifting around the school bus with AK-47s. A highlight.

What could go wrong?

**tgr** · 2011-11-23

Don't forget the gun. No drift is perfect without a gun.

**Carlton Banks** · 2011-11-23

That video explains the oil-rich Arab world as no other could

**Malcanis** · 2011-11-23

"Doing all the things that Americans wish they could actually do instead of just in GTA"?

**MartCo** · 2011-11-24

I call this sordid tale "The Ballad of John Ellsworth"

Our tale, like many in this forum, begin with the following kill:

https://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/603560

I start my standard mail chain with him, which he politely declines to purchase protection from me:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Customer Service
From: John Ellsworth
Sent: 2011.11.24 05:18
To: Atrum Veneficus,

no thats cool dude but hey my choice is you wont be seeing any of my ships bro , have fun patroling the area as I will simply move on , sry we couldnt come to some sort of arraingement but please understand in a compromise both partys must be willing to contribute , imho I have contributed to your casue sry you dont feel the same way but, I have chosen not to contribute any further . safe flights my frand

--------------------------------
Re: Re: Re: Re: Customer Service
From: Atrum Veneficus
Sent: 2011.11.24 05:12
To: John Ellsworth,

No. This is a common question from many of our customers. You see, if I don't blow up the first ship, nobody takes the protection plan seriously.

It's only after I carry through with the threat, and maybe show off how dedicated I am to my craft (https://killboard.goonfleet.com/shrugged.html), that people are willing to pay for protection.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=368430 is my pilot id. All the kills in november and october are miners and miner pods. The protection plan or moving to non-Gallente space are really the only viable routes. Or paying the 1450 market price per oxygen isotope.

-Atrum

--------------------------------
Re: Re: Re: Customer Service
From: John Ellsworth
Sent: 2011.11.24 05:08
To: Atrum Veneficus,

well the ship you attacked was worth well more than 250 m so can we come to an agreement below that figure?
--------------------------------
Re: Re: Customer Service
From: Atrum Veneficus
Sent: 2011.11.24 05:06
To: John Ellsworth,

Our mining protection program costs 250mil isk per pilot.

If you purchase this plan, you will be able to mine in gallente space. Otherwise, I go after your mining ships as often as I see them.

If you are interested, I can further explain the details to you.

-Atrum

--------------------------------
Re: Customer Service
From: John Ellsworth
Sent: 2011.11.24 04:55
To: Atrum Veneficus,

dude Id like to come to a understanding with goonswarm , Im a solo casual player just tring to make my way in this game . no threat to you alls plans to corner the ice market so my question to you is , Cand there be a peace between us? thanks JE

--------------------------------
Customer Service
From: Atrum Veneficus
Sent: 2011.11.24 04:34
To: John Ellsworth,

Dear Valued Customer,

We here at Goonswarm Federation value your patronage and wish to make every Goon experience a GREAT EXPERIENCE!!!

In order to better serve you, please answer the following questions:
1. On a scale of 1-10 (1 being poor, 10 being excellent) rate your gank.
2. What can we do to improve your ganking experience.
3. What other services would you be interested in experiencing from Goonswarm Federation?
4. Would you be interested in purchasing a protection package to avoid future unpleasantness? We offer low competitive rates starting at 250M per pilot!

Yours in Christ,

-Atrum Veneficus

I figured that was the end of the conversation. As you can see from the bolded parts, I figured he'd actually do the smart thing and walk away. But no, that was before Genevieve Inouye got ahold of him. You see, Genevieve apparently was also mailing the people I'd killed today and his gentle tones parted this fool from his isk and convinced him that it was quite alright to mine again.

That was when this happened:
https://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/603595

That's right, just a bit after two hours, John Ellsworth lost another ship. He's very smug in local about the ship I supposedly owe him and I decide that I will assume the role of super arrogant direkktor. I basically take all those really terrible BOB and IRC leadership mails we get to make fun of and channel it into local:

[06:45:14] Atrum Veneficus > should have taken the deal
[06:45:27] motgus > lawl
[06:45:39] Random Gen > how many customers today Atrum?
[06:45:51] John Ellsworth > dude i did lol
[06:46:01] John Ellsworth > I think you owe me a ship bro
[06:46:03] Atrum Veneficus > i've killed like 12
[06:46:29] John Ellsworth > better check with gene
[06:46:47] John Ellsworth > my number is je95730
[06:47:24] Atrum Veneficus > you didn't go through me and you aren't on our list yet
[06:47:25] Atrum Veneficus > soooo
[06:47:30] Atrum Veneficus > typically takes a few hours
[06:47:53] Atrum Veneficus > deninard is my turf
[06:48:01] John Ellsworth > she said it would be immeaditally
[06:48:09] John Ellsworth > sry dude
[06:49:33] John Ellsworth > she said you should have checked the list 1st
[06:50:02] Atrum Veneficus > well, she's not a director in the alliance and i am. so have fun collecting!
[06:50:28] John Ellsworth > so you dont respect your own program?
[06:51:30] Atrum Veneficus > not when you've got mails telling you to go through me
[06:51:32] Atrum Veneficus > and you skip me
[06:51:36] Atrum Veneficus > so... no
[06:51:40] Atrum Veneficus > deninard is my playground
[06:52:39] Atrum Veneficus > you can ask PlatinumMerc
[06:52:48] Atrum Veneficus > nobody mines here unless I let them
[06:52:51] motgus > too scrub to catch anyone worth while, too bad
[06:53:15] motgus > too slow to get anything worthwhile
[06:53:18] John Ellsworth > well dude are you going to respect your program now that your aware i paid into it already?
[06:54:36] Atrum Veneficus > No, like I said, I'm the sheriff in Deninard.
[06:54:47] motgus > haha ok, keep thinking that, it's cute
[06:55:09] John Ellsworth > well that kinda defeats the purpose of having an amisty program dont you think?
[06:55:21] Atrum Veneficus > No. like I said, I approve anything in Deninard.
[06:55:40] Atrum Veneficus > You choose not to go through me, you pay the price. One mackinaw.
[06:55:49] motgus > lawl
[06:55:53] motgus > so scrub atrum
[06:56:49] John Ellsworth > haha so a life time membership in every space but this system then?
[06:57:18] motgus > john just be more alert, atrum took forever when that frig was just sitting near you haha
[06:58:48] John Ellsworth > well looks like id need a refund then
[07:00:19] Dosmostos > lol... this is comical to read
[07:00:38] Atrum Veneficus > the tears, the tears are what fuels me
[07:00:38] motgus > it is quite good

This is interspersed with furious jabber convo where Genevieve and I get our story straight - basically because he went behind my back sniping my hard-fought kills, I'm stripping him of his roles and removing him from the alliance. John Ellsworth, for lieing to me then going elsewhere for protection and denying me my 50% cut of the protection fee, is not getting off the hook.

Frantic mails like

Re: Miner Amnesty Program - License Issuance
From: John Ellsworth
Sent: 2011.11.24 06:52
To: Genevieve Inouye,

Atrum Veneficus just ganked me again said he a director and your not and i should have gone through him and refuses to reimburse me

Re: Miner Amnesty Program - License Issuance
From: John Ellsworth
Sent: 2011.11.24 07:02
To: Genevieve Inouye,

plz reply Atrum refuses to honor the agreement so Id like a refund

From: John Ellsworth
Sent: 2011.11.24 07:17
To: Genevieve Inouye,

he said you where sniping his kill mail? is there someone in charge?

and then John Ellsworth tries to move to private chat, where I play the hardline, no compromise despot with a temper-tantrum even more:

[07:05:50] John Ellsworth > you kicked her out?
[07:06:03] Atrum Veneficus > what?
[07:06:33] John Ellsworth > genevieve said you removed her roles
[07:07:26] John Ellsworth > listen i didnt know you where so high in the orginazation but i did subscribe to the program
[07:08:06] Atrum Veneficus > yes. you see, we have get to keep a cut of the protection fee as a servicing arrangement. Genevieve was watching our killboard and poaching people I'd killed. So when you went with her protection instead of the mailing chain I'd sent you,
[07:08:12] Atrum Veneficus > both she and you paid the price.
[07:09:31] John Ellsworth > but listen i had no idea you had so many internal problems in your guild what is the use of having a program if everyone is just going off mavric in there favorite systems
[07:10:16] John Ellsworth > i did pay the fee not to you but it was paid along with an extra ship
[07:10:54] John Ellsworth > so you guys just are scaming this program?
[07:11:04] Atrum Veneficus > it's pretty simple, you deal with the guy who shot you.
[07:11:18] Atrum Veneficus > i contacted you, you gave me a bullshit line about not willing to compromise
[07:11:23] Atrum Veneficus > then paid someone else
[07:11:33] Atrum Veneficus > how am i supposed to take that?
[07:11:50] John Ellsworth > yea ok but then you had a crew this time and what about the next goonswarm member? so we like have to pay to each of you?
[07:12:27] Atrum Veneficus > no. you didn't know you were dealing with a dude that had power. that's not your fault.
[07:12:32] John Ellsworth > I was relying on some honor between theives
[07:12:36] Atrum Veneficus > but next time, talk to the guy who has the guns.
[07:12:49] John Ellsworth > how old are you?
[07:14:23] Atrum Veneficus > irrelevant to the conversation
[07:15:59] John Ellsworth > you gona continue to gank me or not
[07:17:12] Atrum Veneficus > i'm having an internal debate about that now. On the one hand, I did blow up your mackinaw. On the other hand, I'm still out my cut and genevieve isn't paying up.
[07:18:27] John Ellsworth > kinda like my situation than
[07:19:28] John Ellsworth > im out 500m so the pinch was stronger on my end plus I never replaced the hulk
[07:20:10] Atrum Veneficus > yeah, but i can boot genevieve from the alliance. you aren't likely to cough up another 125mil, so the other option is to ignore the end around you tried to give me or keep blowing up your ships.
[07:22:35] John Ellsworth > yea but srsly i wasnt trying to end round you I really thought she was just a rep I actually thought you had had her contact me.. the impression i got as her messahes where very detailed and professional in there content and aproach
[07:23:27] John Ellsworth > I mean is that your alt?
[07:23:29] Atrum Veneficus > why would i have her approach you when you'd already indicated you were going to "move along?"
[07:23:33] John Ellsworth > seems strange
[07:23:56] Atrum Veneficus > i took the mail you sent me at its face value - that you were not going to remain in gallente space

I held up. I never admitted the scam. I think he believes right now he just tangled with the wrong power-mad despot. It was fun - though that guy had a bad day losing about a billion isk between ships and protection.

**Ecocrexis** · 2011-11-24

The mighty Mittani has some ~words~ i'd like to inflict on the rest of you.

Also with this

I'd like to ask mittens, on a scale of 1-10 with 6 being your normal level, how smug are you right now with the way things have turned out?

**Traakile** · 2011-11-25

Smug-o-meter is off the charts, I bet.

**Quasi** · 2011-11-25

As with Spinal Tap, I would say his goes to 11

**Zagdul** · 2011-11-25

[07:09:31] John Ellsworth > but listen i had no idea you had so many internal problems in your guild what is the use of having a program if everyone is just going off mavric in there favorite

This line here had me crying.