New rule! (I know you guys love rules!)

**jimmychrist** · 2012-07-26

Originally Posted by Endie

Well, it would be cool to get a decision because I have a big post to write on today's massive GIA theft from AAA, the industrial-scale awoxing and booting of a corp from the alliance and I need to know where I'm cross-posting it.

Just replace any bad word with 'Vinata' and click post

**Endie** · 2012-07-26

I don't give a shit about infractions. But yeah, I'm not pushing stuff to here if its going to be vinata's house of safe happy nice words.

**Venetian Tar** · 2012-07-26

Originally Posted by Endie

I don't give a shit about infractions. But yeah, I'm not pushing stuff to here if its going to be vinata's house of safe happy nice words.

There's another option: don't generate or post new content for this site if it will offend Vinata. I'm sure that's what he wants.

**Grath** · 2012-07-26

Originally Posted by Venetian Tar

There's another option: don't generate or post new content for this site if it will offend Vinata. I'm sure that's what he wants.

Suck my fucking dick and use the ignore function like everybody else, nobody gives a shit about some prissy primadona fuck wits delicate sensibilities.

**Bowkers** · 2012-07-26

There's another option: don't generate or post new content for this site if it will offend Vinata. I'm sure that's what he wants.

Isn't the whole point of a forum to be, well, open? Start infringing on what I can or can't say is not the way to go.

**Manfred Hideous** · 2012-07-26

Originally Posted by Don Peyote

Apparently, there have been cases of prominent members of this community doing this (I say apparently because this is only something I have been told which must have happened while I was off for a few months) in IPEST, launching tirades against ethnic groupings. Regardless of whether it's a problem now, in the interest of clarification, I for one would appreciate a solid rule to go back on in those cases as and when they occur. "Being extreme assholes", as Manfred says, is not enough of a justification, elsewise we'd ban half the forum.

Rest assured we're all debating this, and have been on and off for weeks.

I have no doubt you guys are discussing it now. The outrage might have been entirely avoided had it not been implemented before the discussions were finished.

I spend some time in IPEST. I can't recall anything egregious recently. The posts in question could have been shitcanned before I saw them but it's not a place where people unironically say kill the jews (or similar). It's certainly quite argumentive and there's plenty of invective but nothing jumps out at me that would have been handled under this rule.

Personally, if you're going to insist on being completely subjective ala Vinata's hurtful words list you would be better off to use extreme asshole as your justification. At least there's no real way you could define asshole and you wouldn't have to twist into a pretzel to explain "Well, yeah "faggot" is not acceptable but sometimes, if you're a "faggot" it's OK." That's just stupid.

**Fix Lag** · 2012-07-26

Originally Posted by Vinata

Outside of EOU and STD, racism, homophobia, and misogyny are infractable offenses.

For a moment I was worried I was going to have to stop posting the words "faggot" and "turbonigger" every time I see one

Then I realized I never post outside of EOU

And then I also realized I don't know what a turbonigger is other than a hilariously conjugated insult

And that Vinata's rules have been increasingly arbitrary and stupid over the course of time

Seriously, what the fuck is this? The Family-Friendly Happy House of Eve Online Posting? People post here because it's not subject to the same litany of pants-on-head shitdickery that passes for CCP's forum rules. Don't make this place suck.

**John Smith** · 2012-07-26

Originally Posted by Manfred Hideous

I have no doubt you guys are discussing it now. The outrage might have been entirely avoided had it not been implemented before the discussions were finished.

I spend some time in IPEST. I can't recall anything egregious recently. The posts in question could have been shitcanned before I saw them but it's not a place where people unironically say kill the jews (or similar). It's certainly quite argumentive and there's plenty of invective but nothing jumps out at me that would have been handled under this rule.

Personally, if you're going to insist on being completely subjective ala Vinata's hurtful words list you would be better off to use extreme asshole as your justification. At least there's no real way you could define asshole and you wouldn't have to twist into a pretzel to explain "Well, yeah "faggot" is not acceptable but sometimes, if you're a "faggot" it's OK." That's just stupid.

In Vinata defence it seemed like the discussion was finished. I have had other things going and been thinking about how to say what I wanted and before I knew it, the rule had gone live. It wasn't really till yesterday that I managed to get my ideas down into words on it, which really was too late and should have been done sooner. However, it has sparked new discussion of it and lets just say I'm hopeful.

**Venetian Tar** · 2012-07-26

Originally Posted by Grath

Suck my fucking dick and use the ignore function like everybody else, nobody gives a shit about some prissy primadona fuck wits delicate sensibilities.

That's not what I was saying. I'm against this new "no bad words" thing as well.

**Helios Black** · 2012-07-26

Originally Posted by Venetian Tar

That's not what I was saying. I'm against this new "no bad words" thing as well.

Doesn't matter, suck his dick.

**Agathor** · 2012-07-26

Lets say chaos theory brings us a really depressed dude to these fabled forums. He hangs himself, of course to no degree do to the mass of peeps saying "you mad" and "kill yourself" on every page in every thread for years. His mother finds his comp with Kugu open.

All I am saying, that legally. Vinata is doing the right thing, especially when the papers sniff around.

**Bowkers** · 2012-07-26

Ok if the premise of the above happened: The forums would still be fucked because the rule put in place is not across the board.

**Vinata** · 2012-07-26

Originally Posted by Manfred Hideous

"Well, yeah "faggot" is not acceptable but sometimes, if you're a "faggot" it's OK." That's just stupid.

That's not how it operates. I told Securitas to remove it from his sig, he pulled the "But I'm gay so it's ok!" card, I told him again to remove it, and when he didn't I removed it for him.

Anyway the current discussion among mods thinks that limiting this rule only to the non-eve forums would be the better idea. Until the final verdict, that's what will be happening.

**Malcanis** · 2012-07-26

Originally Posted by Vinata

That's not how it operates. I told Securitas to remove it from his sig, he pulled the "But I'm gay so it's ok!" card, I told him again to remove it, and when he didn't I removed it for him.

Anyway the current discussion among mods thinks that limiting this rule only to the non-eve forums would be the better idea. Until the final verdict, that's what will be happening.

Wouldn't it be easier for you to find a forum to moderate with a population that subscribes to your ideas than to try and impose them on a whole community that evidently doesn't?

**Vinata** · 2012-07-26

Yes

**Malcanis** · 2012-07-26

The point being that a moderator is in the final analysis the servant of a forum, not its master.

Oh well fuck it, have fun.

**Manfred Hideous** · 2012-07-26

Originally Posted by Vinata

That's not how it operates. I told Securitas to remove it from his sig, he pulled the "But I'm gay so it's ok!" card, I told him again to remove it, and when he didn't I removed it for him.

Anyway the current discussion among mods thinks that limiting this rule only to the non-eve forums would be the better idea. Until the final verdict, that's what will be happening.

If that's the case, then securitas lied to me! *shock*

Whatever the final verdict, my only real dog in this fight was the uneven application. I'm not offended when someone calls me a wetback dago bastard. and I'm not offended by the lack of offense, either. Hypocrisy, though...

**Mr Coloredshirt** · 2012-07-26

durrhurrdurr 2012

**Night** · 2012-07-26

Originally Posted by Mr Coloredshirt

durrhurrdurr 2012

Durr would do this for the explicit reason of applying it inconsistently to troll us.

**Kevin** · 2012-07-26

Now to drag this conversation onto a different track, I find it amusing that people here say "I called such and such a faggot but i didn't actually mean it as an offense to homosexuals, i meant it like i say 'asshole'". Or, the other alternative "When i call such and such a jewbeard I am referring to his habit of not wanting to lose money in PVP but that he would rather build his bank as he seems to think that is more fun...I'm not an antisemite."

The important thing to realise here is that yes, if you call someone a nigger, you're a racist. Yes, Grath has many coloured friends, he has stated he even likes some of them, but every time you use the word you are pushing the negative racial stereotype, and you're putting it infront of other people as such. We're all racist, sexist, and whatever to a degree. We can't help casting stereotypes, because its just the way we are programmed to behave socially, people are groups and not individuals. So I'm sorry if you think you're not racist, or homophobic, or whatever...you are. The individual you know in real life and quite like is the exception to the rule, you're still racist to a degree, everyone is and you can't help it.

However, trying to police this is a nightmare and is a complete waste of time, because, as stated, everyone is racist/sexist/group-ist to some degree and that includes the people who are meant to police the posts. The issue is not "I fucking enjoy being racist and how dare you impinge on my imagined right to oppress other people through my words and actions" and its not even the golden "Free Speech lets me be a complete asshole with impunity", its that there's no way that you could possibly enforce such a rule with some consistency, because you're not policing words (there are always work arounds, pillow-biters), you're trying to police people's attitudes and intentions, and you've got no fucking chance of doing that successfully in RL or on an internet forum.

So stick a disclaimer on the front saying "Kugutsumen.com takes no responsibility for the reprehensible and completely unwarranted racism, hate-words and cyberbullying we know goes on here because of whatever reason, we're not their mothers and no one is forced to be here jesus grow up already" and if you really think someone is pushing the limits too far with aggressive and directed abuse, ban them.

**Bowkers** · 2012-07-26

Like I said. The word forum means open discussion. You cannot close it off for the benefit of you. There needed to be a frank and open discussion about this at all levels. From the looks of things this drew criticism from, even the staff members, who in the main are sane people, apart from Marivauder, so what were you expecting from the community? To lie down and accept the rule changes?

**Wusti** · 2012-07-27

Agathor, I love you my Viking friend - but thats a garbage excuse when its applied selectively, and the moment it gets applied to the site universally, I for one, am goneski. Probably no loss but there you go.

Also Vinata don't hold onto a rule for prides sake and apply it to some area that no-one reads for to say you still got it up. The Site either retains its ethos or it doesn't.

If you guys don't want it to - and granted it's your site, then fine.

Policies enacted, for even good reasons, on this site have back fired before so no surprises there.

**Alidean** · 2012-07-27

Niggers have gone crazy in this fucking thread

**Mr Coloredshirt** · 2012-07-27

Originally Posted by Kevin

Now to drag this conversation onto a different track, I find it amusing that people here say "I called such and such a faggot but i didn't actually mean it as an offense to homosexuals, i meant it like i say 'asshole'". Or, the other alternative "When i call such and such a jewbeard I am referring to his habit of not wanting to lose money in PVP but that he would rather build his bank as he seems to think that is more fun...I'm not an antisemite."

The important thing to realise here is that yes, if you call someone a nigger, you're a racist. Yes, Grath has many coloured friends, he has stated he even likes some of them, but every time you use the word you are pushing the negative racial stereotype, and you're putting it infront of other people as such. We're all racist, sexist, and whatever to a degree. We can't help casting stereotypes, because its just the way we are programmed to behave socially, people are groups and not individuals. So I'm sorry if you think you're not racist, or homophobic, or whatever...you are. The individual you know in real life and quite like is the exception to the rule, you're still racist to a degree, everyone is and you can't help it.

However, trying to police this is a nightmare and is a complete waste of time, because, as stated, everyone is racist/sexist/group-ist to some degree and that includes the people who are meant to police the posts. The issue is not "I fucking enjoy being racist and how dare you impinge on my imagined right to oppress other people through my words and actions" and its not even the golden "Free Speech lets me be a complete asshole with impunity", its that there's no way that you could possibly enforce such a rule with some consistency, because you're not policing words (there are always work arounds, pillow-biters), you're trying to police people's attitudes and intentions, and you've got no fucking chance of doing that successfully in RL or on an internet forum.

So stick a disclaimer on the front saying "Kugutsumen.com takes no responsibility for the reprehensible and completely unwarranted racism, hate-words and cyberbullying we know goes on here because of whatever reason, we're not their mothers and no one is forced to be here jesus grow up already" and if you really think someone is pushing the limits too far with aggressive and directed abuse, ban them.

shut up faggot

**somedude76** · 2012-07-27

I don't drop N-bombs, I don't hate on gays or women, but I hate this rule. I thought about it for a while and tried to have an open mind but I find this rule to be retarded! Oh shit, I just used an offensive word. We need to ban the word "retard" too. Vinata, don't forget to infract yourself for using the word multiple times.

I really hate this rule. Let people say what they want to say. I'd rather people speak their mind and know where they stand instead of censoring them.

**Securitas** · 2012-07-27

Originally Posted by Vinata

That's not how it operates. I told Securitas to remove it from his sig, he pulled the "But I'm gay so it's ok!" card, I told him again to remove it, and when he didn't I removed it for him.

Anyway the current discussion among mods thinks that limiting this rule only to the non-eve forums would be the better idea. Until the final verdict, that's what will be happening.

Actually it was more "it's me being called something not the other way around" card but hey, don't let that get in the way of a good story.

**Barry Zuckerkorn** · 2012-07-27

I'm not saying its good or bad, however considering the rule doesn't apply to EOU, forum porn, chat logs, it is hard for me to see how it would have a large impact on the site. I mean things are generally pretty civil outside of EOU, so to me it seems like much to do about nothing.

**somedude76** · 2012-07-27

If you ride the fence too much, you will get a hemorrhoid my friend.

**Barry Zuckerkorn** · 2012-07-27

Originally Posted by somedude76

If you ride the fence too much, you will get a hemorrhoid my friend.

It burns so good though!

Worrying about minor policy changes to a internet forum which will have negligible effects can also cause hemorrhoids.

**Wusti** · 2012-07-27

If its that insignificant why do it in the first place - it achieves absolutely nothing but really fucking pisses off the people who come here and think that all do-gooder, PC bullshit, shitcunt abo nigger faggots are the source of all evil.

**Barry Zuckerkorn** · 2012-07-27

Originally Posted by Wusti

If its that insignificant why do it in the first place - it achieves absolutely nothing but really fucking pisses off the people who come here and think that all do-gooder, PC bullshit, shitcunt abo nigger faggots are the source of all evil.

The Viking King suggested that it is possibly for legal protection but if that is the case, the sections of the forum where it would be allowed can be seen without registration, so who knows.

**Vinata** · 2012-07-27

Originally Posted by somedude76

I don't drop N-bombs, I don't hate on gays or women, but I hate this rule. I thought about it for a while and tried to have an open mind but I find this rule to be retarded! Oh shit, I just used an offensive word. We need to ban the word "retard" too. Vinata, don't forget to infract yourself for using the word multiple times.

I've said it multiple times in this thread, but the rule isn't against offensive words.

**Venetian Tar** · 2012-07-27

Originally Posted by Vinata

I've said it multiple times in this thread, but the rule isn't against offensive words.

Yeah, this is definitely you saying "if I don't like it, it's not allowed. Fuck you, nerds

"

I guess we can say goodbye to a lot of the guys that used to post here regularly now.

**Bowkers** · 2012-07-27

I'm disappointed that in the first post of this you've explicitly mentioned this 'You're not even getting a reason this time'

Way to treat the community.

**Endie** · 2012-07-27

Originally Posted by Vinata

I've said it multiple times in this thread, but the rule isn't against offensive words.

Bollocks: it is 100% against words that you, personally, do not like. Thus you've mechanically infracted me three times in this thread for using words that didn't pass your panel of thoughtcrimes, regardless of context or intent. Because obviously I'm a fucking racist, aren't I? I mean, my loathing for Scotland seeps from my every post so it was well worth two infractions.

Its almost as if you, Vinata, get to look at each word in a post and make a judgement call as to whether you choose to interpret it as fitting your hipster cool test, and if not you infract. Thus, no offensive words unless it is about those with learning difficulties because fuck them, eh? Or unless it references racial groups you don't feel are aspirational; or groups you don't like yourself; or it's said by someone you like, because they meant it in a cool, knowing way obviously. And so on.

No "your momma" jokes because those are hate crimes against women. No jokes regarding effeminacy or campness or somthing being "gay" because that means you want to tie homosexuals to your truck in the world of Vinata. Nobody can say they twinked a character: same reason. No Amarr/Minmatar slave humour because that is offensive to the experiences of Africans taken into slavery by colonial powers.

No saying "gas this thread" because that references the holocaust. No references to jihadding hulks nor any related suicide bomber humour because :911:

atriot: and we need to show sensitivity in order to avoid alienating moderate muslims. Vik Reddy jokes are right out. Nothing about Greeks not paying taxes, or jokingly suggesting that a hispanic corporation might put off fuelling towers until manana.

I don't even need to mention the fact that on the new site to be known as vinata dot com there is no place for making and jokes at all about ev0ke, since people cannot be trusted to steer clear of mentioning the war in an offensive manner. Similarly, we'll have no mention of comfort women or kamikazes when discussing the influx of Japanese, since we cannot run the risk of offending what we can under no circumstances refer to as the warlike sons of Nippon.

Coat-hangering supercaps won't fly on chomsky.com and it won't work here, while any reference at all to aborting baby caps or titan foetuses would offend women, conservatives, evangelicals and any number of other groups, so while Vinata doesn't think they are cool we have to ban that just in case. Let's not forget to excise any references to

or "skill yourself" jokes because those will cause distress to the relatives of anyone who has committed or attempted suicide in the past, while on the same grounds you should simply delete mittens' account altogether.

Furries, as a valid and sensitive alternative lifestyle choice, are immune from criticism and a thread will be opened for them to exchange furporn. Posting goatse, however, is now entirely allowable since anus distending moderation will be at the heart of the new, sensitive kugu site.

I could go on, but I think that more than amply demonstrates that Vinata has his finger on the pulse of kugutsumen culture and has nothing but its best interests at heart. Nothing to do with words, though!

**Fix Lag** · 2012-07-27

I know Vinata's lost the argument when everyone he disagrees with starts getting infractions.

**Mr Coloredshirt** · 2012-07-27

Originally Posted by Fix Lag

I know Vinata's lost the argument when everyone he disagrees with starts getting infractions.

Clearly there is nothing to argue over since he didn't provide a reason for the rule, hence it's infallible and any reason for which you think it's dumb is wrong.

ps vinata when the revolution comes you'll be the first up against the wall jfyi

irl ingame

**Endie** · 2012-07-27

Originally Posted by Fix Lag

I know Vinata's lost the argument when everyone he disagrees with starts getting infractions.

The law infracts the hapless cur
Who once emits a racist slur
But lets the greater villain post
Who'd make kugu into milquetoast

**Sean Alenko** · 2012-07-27

Look on the bright side at least we can still abuse white heterosexual males.

"Hey straight fag stop being a turbowigger"

**Endie** · 2012-07-27

Sounds like the sort of thing a middle-classed cracker-ass honkey would say.

**Mr Coloredshirt** · 2012-07-27

yeah, and what about niggers I mean are they black or what?

fuck misinterpreted what we were doing and accidentally raccissifedd again I don't want to get a second infraction ohno please help how do I edit (((

**jimmychrist** · 2012-07-27

Originally Posted by Vinata

I've said it multiple times in this thread, but the rule isn't against offensive words.

How else are we communicating on kugutsumen.com; an internet forum, if not by posting words?

**Endie** · 2012-07-27

He's going to infract our body language

**Endie** · 2012-07-27

Infract this, Vinata

**Night** · 2012-07-27

Originally Posted by Vinata

I've said it multiple times in this thread, but the rule isn't against offensive words.

We don't care what you think it's about. We care what it actually looks to be about. Welcome to the real world.

**Sean Alenko** · 2012-07-27

My rep title "Gay Bar" is offensive to the homosexual community please infract me.

**Bowkers** · 2012-07-27

Fucking gay faggot.

Can't infract me. Faggot is another word for a meat dish in England.

**Grath** · 2012-07-27

This is gona be my absolute last post (if you notice since you posted your cockslurping rule this is the only place I've said a word)

You are a piece of absolute human shit Vinata, and how you got left in charge of this whole deal amazes me. Currently you're acting like the George W. Bush of forum admins.

If he's not willing to roll the rule back, and probably apologize for shitting on the community that uses this forum (not him, since he never posts at all except to protect the rights of faggots and minorities) then the only thing that we can do in opposition to him is to simply take all the content elsewhere.

Fuck him, if he doesn't care about the forum why should we? He obviously wants it to die off so just let it, we'll all gravitate to wherever next.

Best of luck faggots and So long Vinata, enjoy the AIDS that is the hell every cocksucking salad tossing shit eater like you is destined to endure!

EDIT: I also think that if anything is to be salvaged from this Vinata needs to be completely removed from any decision making because he's obviously completely out of touch with his own forum community and no longer has the ability to communicate with us properly.