Who are the small gang pros?

[NAP]

I see time and time again, everyone claims they like "small gang" PVP yet a quick look at this group's KB or that group's KB and they almost all look the same. They are either filled with inactivity or just tons of shitty ganks with horrible fits in their losses, nothing that shows they go balls deep or play the game on the edge.

We always hear about the "big boys" but IMO they never hold the cutting edge as to be a boy boy, you by default are bloated and likely over run with guys whom would rather farm, anoms than go PVP. Even PL whom once were what I might say cutting edge, have suffered from the bloat and now taking risk for them, appears to be baiting in low sec with Mallers in hopes to hot drop a few Drakes with a Nyx. (yes I expect a neg rep shit storm)

So lets hear it, who are the actual small gang pros out there today? Guys that keep away the bloat but still manage to keep an active KB with out farming shuttles on gates.

[Pripyat]

0utbreak is still pretty good in running gangs of 10-20, lately using Machariels.

[fpshacker]

There are some really pro small gang guys I have BM'd but I can't access them being on my phone atm. Not suprisingly many of the best small gang and solo players aren't in any of the big "pro" alliances. Ill get the links to some of the people who I really like, i have them BM'd so i can check their fits and see where they roam to get all their kills. Its kinda lame, the people who are some of the best at small gang are people you've probably never heard of because they don't participate in power block warfare or anything. In terms of well known alliances i'd say that Outbreak and Agony have some good small gang players and so does Darkside and Rote Kappelle. It seems to be a trend ive noticed that alliances who are very competent at small gangs (and obviously competent in general) tend to live in NPC 0.0. Most of what goes on in regions like syndicate/Outer ring/Stain/Curse gets overshadowed by what goes on in player controlled space but IME NPC space is alot more interesting. They alliances in NPC space are far more competent in general then sov alliances and their pets and from what ive noticed the trend of dropping super blobs on everything hasn't spread to NPC space and GFs have not died out to the degree that they have elsewhere.

[true]

Rote Kapelle, Darkside, Outbreak, SoT (my all times fav tho people say it's mostly dead now)


2 of them are russian wich limits recruiting pool (a little)

[Anon]

Rooks & Kings, Stain, The Tuskers, SoT, Rote Kapelle are a few of the better outfits.

[NAP]

I have always thought R&K were pretty good, I have an Amarr alt I'd love to get in one of their corps for some of that fun they seem to dig up, but I get the feeling they are a bit too structured for me to want to stick my main in.

Rote Kapelle keeps coming up and I guess it's deserved, I've tangled with them a few times and they seem very good with the nano gangs. They seem to know their stuff but god damn their KB header is a eye sore..

[Securitas]

My alliance fits some of the things you might expect from a "good small-gang alliance" with 1 main problem; we aren't that good.

It's mainly because we lack the skills (yet) to fly gangs that are decent at fighting outnumbered. It also doesn't help that lately there seem to be less and less gangs willing to engage at all in their size bracket. For example today, my 18 man gang (All t1 cruisers and tackle) was refused a fight by a 15 man gang (all BC/Recon/HAC) because we were in "arty ruptures" as if they were that good. v0v

By and large, people either dock up or blob nowadays. I understand that's what's needed to win, but it does mean that small-gang action is harder to find. It also doesn't help that tactics like kiting and stuff don't work THAT well anymore thanks to the omnipresent 80k Drake that is everywhere. To do well in a small-gang you more or less need to have logi nowadays, which makes even less people want to engage you. Ugh.

Anyway, the answer to your actual question: Darkside, Rote Kapelle, Reckless Chavs, many WH corps(by definition; large gangs can't go through WHs) such as Aperture Harmonics, AQUILA. Rooks and Kings are good as well.

[Viribus]

Surprised no one's mentioned Hydra yet.

[Securitas]

Surprised no one's mentioned Hydra yet.

That's a given. :P

[Grath]

Not really since they all pretty much stopped playing or rarely play.


You also all overlook the fact that as soon as you get a reputation as being 'good at small gang' your small gang becomes not quite good enough as its buried under the avalanche of home defense fleets. People don't like losing, especially to people considered 'good', so the better you get, the harder it gets to find a fight that a 'small gang' has any hope of taking on.

[ihaveahelmet]

R&K are grossly overrated depending on your definition of "small gang", Agony too risk-averse (never seen them willingly engaging anything if they'd possibly lose even a rifter). I've fought Outbreak a few times but I haven't been impressed or at least seen them live-up to that reputation.

Rote Kapelle and Darkside are my personal favorites. Volta (darknesss's corp) are also pretty good.

PL doesn't do much small-gang anymore, but a couple dudes are still really really good at either that or solo. Orbiting the anchor and shooting targets you lock from the broadcast window isn't the pinnacle of spaceship skill and i can say from experience that I used to be pretty good at small scale stuff, but now I'm beyond terrible.

[John Caffeine]

R&K are grossly overrated depending on your definition of "small gang", Agony too risk-averse (never seen them willingly engaging anything if they'd possibly lose even a rifter). I've fought Outbreak a few times but I haven't been impressed or at least seen them live-up to that reputation.

Rote Kapelle and Darkside are my personal favorites. Volta (darknesss's corp) are also pretty good.

PL doesn't do much small-gang anymore, but a couple dudes are still really really good at either that or solo. Orbiting the anchor and shooting targets you lock from the broadcast window isn't the pinnacle of spaceship Skill and i can say from experience that I used to be pretty good at small scale stuff, but now I'm beyond terrible.

Guillotine Therapy, RnK's french WH corporation are pretty awesome at small nanogangs and the stuff usually considered "small gang pvp". The rest of us don't usually do the traditional small gang roaming PvP thing, and although are gangs are usually below 30, they tend to be (faction)BS with triage support titanbridging on scouted targets.

Darkside, SoT and Outbreak are my favourite small gang PvPers appart from the WH corps, although I think quite a few WH corps are as good, if not better - at least when it's comes to their niche of small gang PvP (WH fighting).

[ihaveahelmet]

Guillotine Therapy, RnK's french WH corporation are pretty awesome at small nanogangs and the stuff usually considered "small gang pvp". The rest of us don't usually do the traditional small gang roaming PvP thing, and although are gangs are usually below 30, they tend to be (faction)BS with triage support titanbridging on scouted targets.

Yeah that's what I meant, you're pretty awesome at what it is you do, but indeed I don't consider that small gang pvp

[Dipluz]

Yeah small gang warfare is the way to go, I will agree on strong parts that small gang fights is hard to find (of experience), my corp usually go in with 5-10 guys, and DRF chases (or try to bait us) with a 30man battlecruiser gang. so for my small corp its usually a lot of ganking in high traffic pipes in the middle of someones territory.

[ihateblobs]

http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=394496
this guy los 10 bil ships in 3 days....using expensive ships and killing 2-3 t1 cruiser, are called propvp skillz?

[Crucifier]

Depends on what your definition of best is. Sick k/d ratios (burn eden for example) or lots of sick video footage but dieing a lot(hydra for example).

[NAP]

http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=394496
this guy los 10 bil ships in 3 days....using expensive ships and killing 2-3 t1 cruiser, are called propvp skillz?

Rich FoTM fags are still just fags. I like just keeping it simple, mainly BC's or T1 cruisers. Stuff that's affordable and not so scary looking.

[Sirius Danger]

Haven't heard anything about Black Legion in here yet.

[Mfume]

Haven't heard anything about Black Legion in here yet.

because we aren't incredibly good at small gangs (under 10 dudes)

[vexter]

Just find an FC who stays calm in a situation, and everyone has fun in his gangs. Its all about the LOLz, but no matter who you are, you will have fail ops sometimes. Even SK lead us to inglorious deaths from time to time. And now its gotten worse with the commonality of the titan bridging alliance blob.

My answer to OP:

SKrooster. This guy would solo battleships in moa's. He would say "Ok, we can beat this". You would think to yourself "no way, I wish my vaga had insurance". But you never doubted SK. You just listen and do exactly has your told and he would bring most of you home most of the time. He HATED losing ships. Eventually it got to he point that we would hide him in other systems so people would engage us. Then it became 3:1 odds and they still ran. Then SK got laid, and we never seen him again.

[Atticus]

because we aren't incredibly good at small gangs (under 10 dudes)

Check out BC losses for BL on Eve-kill. 'Nuff said. :<

[TheAmazingElk]

Us. Test can... attest to it, ask them about last night and that gang using AFs :P

[Zakhodit]

NXO, a Spainard corp in IRC, runs very good small gangs. But they suffer when [S]we[/S] they mob up with an HD or OP fleet since few NXO guys speak english and [S]our[/S] IRC fleets act like they don't either

[Wildside]

does 1 bait maller and 3 nyxes count? sounds pretty small gang pvp to me. Bet I done more damage pure isk vs losses than most 8)

[Mfume]

does 1 bait maller and 3 nyxes count? sounds pretty small gang pvp to me. Bet I done more damage pure isk vs losses than most 8)

why would you brag about this?

[Krystal]

Obligatory PODLA mention

[LuciTheMeek]

does 1 bait maller and 3 nyxes count? sounds pretty small gang pvp to me. Bet I done more damage pure isk vs losses than most 8)

Is the fuel used by PL to save said nyxes from counterdrops counted as a loss?

[Viribus]

http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=394496
this guy los 10 bil ships in 3 days....using expensive ships and killing 2-3 t1 cruiser, are called propvp skillz?

By that metric PiXEL UA is the best PVPer in EVE, routinely losing stabbed 100mn tengus and officer fit faction BS and getting solo frigate and dictor kills.

Dude's hilarious, he sits in 0.0 systems for hours, taunting people into engaging him, then is surprised when he gets tackled by an arazu and DD'd

Literally the highest ratio of money to sense in the game

[Atticus]

why would you brag about this?

4 dudes sounds fairly small gang to me... 'small gang pvp' axiom is a misnomer.

[Illadelph Justice]

Surprised no one has mentioned Sniggwaffe. And I mean that, no troll. Training corp, perhaps, but they are thrown into some of the toughest situations, are generally poor, and are expected to adapt and take on the largest alliances in EVE with their small gangs. They come out of it pretty damn pro too.

[Securitas]

Surprised no one has mentioned Sniggwaffe. And I mean that, no troll. Training corp, perhaps, but they are thrown into some of the toughest situations, are generally poor, and are expected to adapt and take on the largest alliances in EVE with their small gangs. They come out of it pretty damn pro too.

They sound pretty good. Maybe I'll offer them a merger into DIAT.

[Mfume]

Surprised no one has mentioned Sniggwaffe. And I mean that, no troll. Training corp, perhaps, but they are thrown into some of the toughest situations, are generally poor, and are expected to adapt and take on the largest alliances in EVE with their small gangs. They come out of it pretty damn pro too.

let me tell you about sniggwaffe bringing the same number of bcs then adding 2 logis and 2 falcons and still losing, then only coming back with more logi, the falcons and fighters assigned, only getting one of us.

tl;dr swigg is awful

[ihaveahelmet]

Forgot to mention Purple Helmeted Warriors

[Carlton Banks]

Very, very few groups actually run fully-formed fleets against larger numbers. Most 'small gang pros' are actually solo and small group pros. Their advantage is not so much fleet fights but gate, jump bridge, station and region camping. They largely work alone or in loose groups, usually with a significant amount of alts.

[Wildside]

Surprised no one has mentioned Sniggwaffe. And I mean that, no troll. Training corp, perhaps, but they are thrown into some of the toughest situations, are generally poor, and are expected to adapt and take on the largest alliances in EVE with their small gangs. They come out of it pretty damn pro too.

Think waffles varyes from mothn to mothn to much :P Yes you might have some decent pvpers in there some mothns....but then they get graduated/leaves. and you always got a decent bunch of fruitcase in there aswell.

[Viribus]

What's the graduation rate for swigg?

[Grath]

What's the graduation rate for swigg?

Sometimes we graduate a few classes a year, sometimes we end up holding one group for 6 months for security reasons. We had some really great waffles that we new we wanted moved up back in January, but we didn't graduate them till the first week of July because we wanted to focus on the tourney.

Really it basically depends on the Great Abo who runs the waffles.

[Viribus]

If only I wouldn't be found out if I put an alt in.

[Grath]

If only I wouldn't be found out if I put an alt in.

What you mean like Vee or anybody else who have waffle alts?

[Viribus]

Yeah but Vee is a cool guy, I'm a known faggot

EDIT: To get back on topic, draketrain are pretty good at what they do (geddons, machs, and of course drakes), so I'd say they deserve a mention, especially if you consider suicide ganking missioners to be small gang. Lacco also knows pretty much everyone in eve.

[Goberth Ludwig]

Shocking amount of people ITT who are completely disconnected and namedropping whoever they heard of.


I have been a small roaming gang enthusiast in this game for the last 6 years and the whole format has been dead ever since the nano nerf, no troll. The simple reason: You can no longer jump into a blob and get range with few casualties.
And ever since, just as predicted, small fights have mostly vanished. Take a roaming gang into enemy space and you will soon be camped in. The only ships can can slip through such camp are bombers and recons, and those arent ships you can fight a battle with.

I have witnessed Garmons infinite attempt of tweaking new gang concepts, from 100mn tengus, to arty machs, to caracal fleets in order to get a successful recipee and none truly worked. At this time, 0utbreak was flying under garmon and dark side would run from his gangs. Rote mostly goes inactive and cries on FHC v0v. R&K I dont know.

Small gang today is hotdrops (fishing) and awoxing. I dont mean ganking mind you - you need to do these things just to force the enemies hand into forming a fleet and engaging you without waiting to gather a safe enough blob.

[Mfume]

podla still does a lot of smallgang stuff

[Grim]

podla still does a lot of smallgang stuff

From what I remember their small gangs are mostly quick ganks on bubble camps, or nanoing around while a larger gang sits on a gate ignoring them.

Most of the people you hear about doing "small gang roaming" have increased fleet sizes to compensate. R&K roll pretty heavy these days, and if you have to if your goal is to get a decent fight. But that usually requires about 50 dudes to sit near (but not in) an enemy staging system for about half an hour to get a chance of a good response. And even then they will probably get rolled by a cap drop or something (since defenders wanna win as much as the next guy).

[Propagandas]

im pretty much General Callus Tacticus of small gang warfare


edit; but then again "small gang warfare" no longer exists. It is simply farming baddies with a t2/t3 gang. "Back in the golden days" it was pretty much the same, only there was more smaller groups actively roaming. 90% of the kills everyone got in ~small gang pvp~ was when the retard baddies in the old north or people like ISS formed up ~home defence fleets~ which is basically as challenging to fight as a first time HON player.


edit2; basically the SMALL GANG SPECIALISTS does not engage other small gang specialists, so it is not so much ~elite pvp~ as there is ganking noobs who doesnt actually want to fight, or farm crippled fleets of noobs who dont know that they have lost before they even engaged.

[Jm24]

Small gang warfare has devolved into crafting specific setups to maximize the chance of catching and killing nearly any 1-3 ships with under 7 characters. As soon as you form up 2 scim 5 vagas you either fight 20 man+ fleets or people just don't bother. The amount of titans now also increases the chances of getting dropped on by bored people with their own small gang bridge. And typically those small gangs you see now are no more than 3 people rolling 12 guys combined.

[true]

Small gang warfare has devolved into crafting specific setups to maximize the chance of catching and killing nearly any 1-3 ships with under 7 characters.

Tell me it was different.

[Barry Zuckerkorn]

Small gang warfare has devolved into crafting specific setups to maximize the chance of catching and killing nearly any 1-3 ships with under 7 characters. As soon as you form up 2 scim 5 vagas you either fight 20 man+ fleets or people just don't bother. The amount of titans now also increases the chances of getting dropped on by bored people with their own small gang bridge. And typically those small gangs you see now are no more than 3 people rolling 12 guys combined.

I don't know about that really. I know I'm not elite at pvp by any means but I wanted to get better. So I did research, I looked at what are the most people fly in small groups/solo. I then looked at what counters it. So now I am learning how to handle the ship properly, what it can take in different combat situations. I've had more failures than successes but I'm starting to improve. Most of the fleet's I engage with are 5 and under and I don't bring more than myself.
So I kinda disagree, but to a point I can see where you're coming from as it seems like the average fleet is like 20+

[Goberth Ludwig]

good comment by duncan of the hydras which is relevant for the thread

i think it was endless who invented 100mn tengus. garmon came up with caracals, frigate/bombers and arty machs
the biggest problem with most of the corps mentioned is that only one person does everything in their gangs > fcing, scouting etc and no one else in the gang does much but follow. when that person isn't doing gangs the rest of the corp isn't doing anything. even if when those gangs happen the corp performs well.

that doesn't make that corp good, just makes that person good... for example 0utbreak? mostly all zara. Darkside? probably mostly creamster and madmax. SoT? probably mostly all rodger dodger. Genos? mostly all garmon

the only group that impressed me with how all of them were collectively good and flew well together is podla when alvachi, kamoonga, hera and naxias were all active (not implying they were the only good players there at the time). they flew like a hive mind and any one could take over and give general direction. my only gripe with them is they never roamed although that's understandable for the reasons gobbins mentioned after the nano nerf.

despite genos being mostly all garmon sometimes genos gangs rly shine when people aren't being fucking lazy and forcing him to carry them through a roam while they browse forums. there have been rare occasions when most of the gang is actually paying attention, using scouts to supplement garmon's, finding things on scan before he needs to, helping watch local, pointing out things that garmon might miss, making suggestions and taking over seamlessly if needed. on another note genos probably has the best collection of soloers but that's unrelated to the discussion.

i'd only consider a group actually pro at small gang when any single one could take over and keep things going if the guy who started the gang can't and where everyone in the gang communicates well and contributes instead of the dead silence in most gangs when the fc isn't speaking. right now in eve i dont think that a group like that exists. podla and genos are closest but they aren't there.

so in conclusion: imo everyone is shit.

[Propagandas]

that duncan duder got it pretty spot on


And i was the garmon of cruel intentions just sayin ))))

[Mfume]

From what I remember their small gangs are mostly quick ganks on bubble camps, or nanoing around while a larger gang sits on a gate ignoring them.

nah they'll stick around when the hd fleet/blob forms, at least until it gets truly ridiculous. even when it is a truly ridic number (i remember one fight a few jumps out of C4C, at one point it was smt like 30 on 2 podla and myself), they're pretty good at separating dudes at celestials and killing them before the rest of the blob lands out of warp, BBQing tacklers and hoping onto guys who forgot to pull drones while deaggroing, etc.

the downside is that when you run around engaging odds like that, you encounter death by blob a significant amount of the time. personally the risk of fighting outnumbered and being forced to pilot to my limit is the thrill. altho i can see if you're the type who hates losing ships, it's probably not fun for you getting blown out of your socks by 3x (or more) your numbers half the time you roam.

(also: i dont really give a fuck when i lose ships)

despite genos being mostly all garmon sometimes genos gangs rly shine when people aren't being fucking lazy and forcing him to carry them through a roam while they browse forums.

lol i knew it wasnt just us