Most important skill to get to V for the bonuses itself

[Viribus]

I read a couple of those threads, and will update my post, but in reply to this, TSM V does not negatively impact your EHP and shield regen. It can't because TSM affects where the damage is applied but it does not change the total damage. The actual issue is that TSM V is a negligible skill, since at TSM IV you have a 5% chance of damage bleeding through to armor when your shield is at 5% or less, which is a fractional statistic. At 5% or lower, if you have bleed through but not total shield annihilation, the recharge difference is fractional and meaningless. I'm not going to rehash the whole thread again, but perhaps you should re-read it since you took the wrong final result from it.

You've totally missed the point.

It's that if you're bleeding through at 25% shield, your armor receives a greater proportion of damage, and so you spend more time at ~25% shields, and thus longer at peak recharge. Unless you're getting instagibbed, this works out to a marginal increase in the raw damage you can take if your armor absorbs some of the damage that would otherwise put you under peak recharge.

To answer the question of the thread:

- Rapid Firing and Rapid Launch
- Battlecruiser V (unlocks command ships but you should still get BC V even if you never intend to fly them), excellent bonuses to 4 great combat ships and 4 mediocre ones.
- Drone Interfacing
- Navigation
- Engineering, Electronics obviously
- Energy Systems Operation
- Recon Ships
- Logistics
- Shield Upgrades (helps fit LSEs on a lot of cruiser hulls)

[Space Dude123]

Racial Titan 5.

[Combat Scrub]

You've totally missed the point.

It's that if you're bleeding through at 25% shield, your armor receives a greater proportion of damage, and so you spend more time at ~25% shields, and thus longer at peak recharge. Unless you're getting instagibbed, this works out to a marginal increase in the raw damage you can take if your armor absorbs some of the damage that would otherwise put you under peak recharge.

.

No, I think you missed the point (and god, I'm going to go into it). At the point you are in 5% shield (where anyone shield tanking would be, since they have to have TSM IV for Tech 2 shield tank) your tank is broken, and whether the damage bleeds to your armor at that point or in the next volley is irrelevant because you are about to lose the ship. In the fractional cases where a shield tank at or below 5% can recharge faster than the incoming damage, TSM V saves you because then your armor takes no damage, but that scenario is so small that the skill itself (TSM V) is not the bonus I originally understood it to be, when considering the time to train it.

Since you have to have TSM IV for a Tech 2 shield tank, you are already at the point where you don't bleed into armor until you are at or below 5% shield, and then you have a 5% chance of bleeding into armor per hit. Making that 0%/0% sounds great on paper, but isn't worthwhile for the training time, or maybe if CCP boosts the shield tank implants to improve tanking on capitals. At that point, and only at that point, might it be worth considering spending the training time on a skill with fractional or marginal benefits.

[Blazde]

you are already at the point where you don't bleed into armor until you are at or below 5% shield, and then you have a 5% chance of bleeding into armor per hit. Making that 0%/0% sounds great on paper, but isn't worthwhile for the training time, or maybe if CCP boosts the shield tank implants to improve tanking on capitals. At that point, and only at that point, might it be worth considering spending the training time on a skill with fractional or marginal benefits.

The bit between 0% and 5% shield is actually where you lose the most of your shield recharge. Making it 0% bleed-through therefore isn't good, even or rather especially 'on paper'... lv4-5 is the worst level to train for the bonus itself (there was a pre-requisite/capital mod that needed it, I remember it being the reason I trained it - but I think that's gone now?)

It isn't a *huge* game-breaking deal but the bonus that comes from training it is (fairly uniquely) a negative in almost all cases, unless you're in the hypothetical situation where you're never properly entering armour damage but the bleed-through is gradually sapping your armour&hull because you keep entering the 0-5% shield region and eventually you die while still never going below 0% shield. That never happens in practise


There was a similar-ish situation in the past when the Propulsion Jamming skill *increased* the activation time of scramblers & webbers instead of reducing cap, which had the effect of reducing cap but also meant you couldn't switch the mods to a different target as quickly and so turned out to be an unintended negative effect of training it. That was fixed eventually



Edit: I reread what you said more closely and you may have a point... you're saying it's possible for ships to die while still having 4-5% of their high-resist-tanked shield left? As I've always understood it that doesn't happen, the bleed-through causes you to lose armour and hull but not to actually die - but that could be wrong. Either way it's still a 'bonus' with a clear counter-intuitive negative-effect that sometimes amount to a net loss of EHP

[ihaveahelmet]

lv4-5 is the worst level to train for the bonus itself (there was a pre-requisite/capital mod that needed it, I remember it being the reason I trained it - but I think that's gone now?)

Level 4 is actually needed for the tech2 hardeners including the ever so useful misnomer Invulnerability Field, but TSM V as a prerequisite for a capital module was indeed removed around the same time they changed prereqs for a bunch of things, like Thermodynamics, Bomb Deployment, etc. In fact I think it was needed to use the Capital Shield Boosters.

[Blazde]

Capital Shield Booster - Yeah that was it, remember training it when they changed the Nag from armour to shield format then being pissed a couple of months later when it suddenly wasn't neeed

[HUN73R]

gallente carrier V ?

[Dots]

There is no single skill at lvl 5 that is more important than others. The answer each one gives depends entirely on his type of gameplay. In my case Thermodynamics 5 as well as all the gunnery support skills to 5 are the most useful, though Minmatar/Gallente bs 5 has undoubtedly played its role as well.

[matsumoto]

I'm at the point where I either train $gunsupportskill to V or spend the exact same amount of time training Amarr cruiser V and flying a whole bunch of cool ships.

So yeah, dead thread.

P.S. I still think Social V is the best PVP support skills, ever. Gives you +10% forum rep gain per level, I hear.

[Vonqueesha Shenaynay]

People keep saying stuff like energy management 5 and whatnot...

To me, this is all understood when you're flying a ship. You don't fly logi or recons or any t2 amarr ship without all capacitor skills to 5. You shouldn't be flying shield tanked t2 hulls without all lvl 5 (or at least the essential ones) shield skills.

Logi V is beast because the difference is retarded between IV and V. You get triage on carriers now (which unless you're flying pantheon archons, there's not much else use for a carrier these days other than for logistics) and you can run more reps cap stable, which keeps more of your bros in the fight.

Recon V. From someone who flies all races of t2 cruisers, this is probably my favorite lvl 5 ship skill. The difference between IV and V on recons is really unfair tbh. Curses have ridiculous range / neuting power and solid tank, rapiers / razus have retarded web / point / scram range (with links and DG webs, a huginn has 87k webs overheated and an arazu can get to 100k point with RF overheated), and falcons can jam the everloving shit out of anything. They become such a massive force multiplier for gangs that it really makes you miss not having one around. I can't say how many times I've said, "damn I wish we had a huginn (or another recon) here for that fight)." Not to mention that you can't fit an expanded launcher / cyno on your cloaky recons without gimping your fit if you don't have recon 5.

BC V. If you fly bc's often at all, you'll know when you're fighting one with BC V with solid skills. A hurricane becomes a brick tanked killing machine, cyclones get baws reps with implants and oversized boosters, harbys do retarded dps and drakes have super high resists that are hard to beat in groups unless you've come specifically to counter them. Oh, and lets not forget the triple rep myrm, which is probably the greatest cheap solo ship in the game. It's impossible to fit effectively without BC V and it can tank a shitton of dps with ease. I actually solo'd a brick tanked proteus with one in ama once.

[Wildside]

warfare link 5
jump calibration 5
recon 5

[Hexman]

Logi V
JDC V
Recon V
AWU V

Not necessarily in that order, but they're all essential, IMO.

[poaw]

You don't fly logi or recons or any t2 amarr ship without all capacitor skills to 5.

Yes I do.

[Ooohyoutouchmytralala]

I need capacitor skills to V for logi's?

[ihaveahelmet]

On self-reliant logistics like the Scimi and especially the Oneiros, yes. At least if you want to push them to their limits.

[poaw]

Easier to get a Oneiros cap stable than a Scimitar. Well actually the Scimi is only "harder" because of the likelihood of it supporting a kiting gang fit with MWDs. Which kind of throws direct comparison out the window.

But wanting or needing cap skills at V for is just splitting hairs even if it's so "You can rep longer if the cap chain fails.", because the difference between cap skills at IV and V ends up being 1 and 2 seconds at logi IV for the Basilisk and Guardian. It's more for recons, coming out to an extra 30 seconds of MWD time on paper, but realistically around 15 seconds because you are starting from 100%. You get so much more out of training them to a useable level then just going straight to the specific skill at V and even measure it in the case of Logi V versus cap skills V. Logi V/Cap skills IV Scimi has better cap than a Logi IV/cap skills V Scimi. Even when you look at recons it's easy to make the case for putting maxed cap skills on hold, as having Recon V will result in a lot more cap neuted from your Curse/Pilgrim than the added cap from having you cap skills at V, you still can't web/scram as far with the Rapier/Lach, and drop fewer cycles on your Falcon.

They're still good skills to train, but their really isn't a point to prioritizing them over Recon V or Logi V unless there are OCD/ehonour factors going on as a part of your decision making process.

[Don Peyote]

On self-reliant logistics like the Scimi and especially the Oneiros, yes. At least if you want to push them to their limits.

Cap skills are nice, yeah. Nothing like not being told you can't shoot a duder when you really want to

[ihaveahelmet]

Easier to get a Oneiros cap stable than a Scimitar. Well actually the Scimi is only "harder" because of the likelihood of it supporting a kiting gang fit with MWDs. Which kind of throws direct comparison out the window.

But wanting or needing cap skills at V for is just splitting hairs even if it's so "You can rep longer if the cap chain fails.", because the difference between cap skills at IV and V ends up being 1 and 2 seconds at logi IV for the Basilisk and Guardian. It's more for recons, coming out to an extra 30 seconds of MWD time on paper, but realistically around 15 seconds because you are starting from 100%. You get so much more out of training them to a useable level then just going straight to the specific skill at V and even measure it in the case of Logi V versus cap skills V. Logi V/Cap skills IV Scimi has better cap than a Logi IV/cap skills V Scimi. Even when you look at recons it's easy to make the case for putting maxed cap skills on hold, as having Recon V will result in a lot more cap neuted from your Curse/Pilgrim than the added cap from having you cap skills at V, you still can't web/scram as far with the Rapier/Lach, and drop fewer cycles on your Falcon.

They're still good skills to train, but their really isn't a point to prioritizing them over Recon V or Logi V unless there are OCD/ehonour factors going on as a part of your decision making process.

In all fairness the Oneiros and Scimitar fits I use are 33% and 35% cap stable, respectively, with Logi V and capacitor skills at V and require the use of a 3% implant. Moving a skill to IV or removing the implant makes them cap unstable. For the Basi and the Guardian, yeah the capacitor skills are fairly irrelevant if your chain has two energy transfers given to each Logi.

I won't post the fits here because it's not really related to the thread, but if you'd like to see them for curiosity's sake I'll PM them to you.

[pinoyzzz]

Anything -15% per level is pretty strong, so that would mean Interceptors V or Logistics V are the skills most worth getting to 5 for the bonuses alone

[Grath]

Anything -15% per level is pretty strong, so that would mean Interceptors V or Logistics V are the skills most worth getting to 5 for the bonuses alone

Lets be honest, you think launcher rigging 5 is the most important skill on earth.

[el masfeo]

I think the skills that have helped both my industrial and my pvp toons would be the cap skills. Cap skills help so many things in pvp from MWDs, remote and local armor and shield reps, rails and lasers as well as keeping your hulk cap stable for when you are mining around rats. So cap skills might be the most all around useful skills to train to L5.

[Tarac]

Warp Drive Op 5 (long warps are a bitch without it)
AWU 5
All Cap Skills at 5

[Mfume]

I need capacitor skills to V for logi's?

Not really, no. Especially not for Basi/Guard.

[daxsus]

recon V
AWU V
HAC V

[Venetian Tar]

I think AWU V has been the most useful for me actually.

[JCongo]

Alot of people forget Shield Upgrades 5. Assuming you are maxed out on all the other important skills, this allows you to squeeze in extra stuff when using shield extenders.

[Grarr Dexx]

I don't believe there's anything more valuable than AWU V and Logistics V. These skills can mean heaven and earth on the appropriate ship fits.

[GreenDaemon]

%race% Carrier V

I mean, this is supercapitals online. And I do love it for my archon too

[jagidrok]

I don't believe there's anything more valuable than AWU V and Logistics V. These skills can mean heaven and earth on the appropriate ship fits.

AWU 5 helps in some fits but skills like Logistics 5 or Recon 5 always help. Increased range on the force recons is something no other skill can touch and logi 5 is self explanitory

[vexter]

AWU 5 helps in some fits but skills like Logistics 5 or Recon 5 always help. Increased range on the force recons is something no other skill can touch and logi 5 is self explanitory

You got that backwards. AWU 5 ALWAYS helps and recon v or logi 5 only help some ships.

Several people have mentioned what Rec V does for the fitting of a recon, but I wonder if any of them tried those fits with AWU 4?

[Hexman]

You got that backwards. AWU 5 ALWAYS helps and recon v or logi 5 only help some ships.

Several people have mentioned what Rec V does for the fitting of a recon, but I wonder if any of them tried those fits with AWU 4?

Recon V lets you fit both types of cyno gens on a rapier, useful when you're out fishing and want to be able to call in the big guns. AWU5 doesn't in that case.

[Mfume]

You got that backwards. AWU 5 ALWAYS helps and recon v or logi 5 only help some ships.

no troll i can fit all but two ships i fly with AWU 3, the majority with AWU 0

[Agathor]

AWU 5 is needed mostly for Amarr ships. Its not that important for the other races imo.

[Space Dude123]

AWU 5 is needed mostly for Amarr ships. Its not that important for the other races imo.

Minmatar with artillery need awu5 for most fits. Anyone approaching near 1 year of training should have awu5, or be close to getting it.

[Mfume]

Minmatar with artillery need awu5 for most fits.

They need an fitting rig/module for a full rack of the highest tier arty no matter what your AWU is. "They" in this case being the Rupture, Munnin, Hurricane, Tempest and Maelstrom. Those are the ones I've flown and I can't think of any other Minmatar arty boats off the top of my head. Actually there might be some frigate/destroyer fits that need it, I never PvPed much in them.

[Space Dude123]

They need an fitting rig/module for a full rack of the highest tier arty no matter what your AWU is. "They" in this case being the Rupture, Munnin, Hurricane, Tempest and Maelstrom. Those are the ones I've flown and I can't think of any other Minmatar arty boats off the top of my head. Actually there might be some frigate/destroyer fits that need it, I never PvPed much in them.

Yes, but the fits are better with AWU5. For example you could fit a reactor control instead of the power diagnostic if you do not have AWU5 trained for a 720 cane. But the power diagnostic obviously has more use than a reactor control unit.

[Anon]

Anything -15% per level is pretty strong, so that would mean Interceptors V or Logistics V are the skills most worth getting to 5 for the bonuses alone

Thank you for making the argument for Recon V then, since it gives 20-60% bonus increase per level, on top of reducing the fitting requirements for the cov-op cloak to 0.

[Byrr]

Thank you for making the argument for Recon V then, since it gives 20-60% bonus increase per level, on top of reducing the fitting requirements for the cov-op cloak to 0.

No, he's talking about how the math works out. A skill with a -15% per level (as opposed to +X%) works out better that it might look at first glance. For example, Logi V reduces cap use for reppers by -15% per level, which is -75% at level 5. This means they are four times as efficient, the equivalent of +300% or +60% per level. This also makes for a more dramatic jump from level 4 to 5, since it works out to cap usage at level 5 being only 62.5% of what it is at level 4. This is why it's so much easier to run a cap stable logi at level 5 skill than it is at level 4. Skills like logistics and interceptors just scale differently than the +X% ones.

[Sirius Danger]

Looking at the title of this thread I came in fully prepared to type Advanced Weapon Upgrades V, but after reading a few I would have to agree that Curse + Recon V = 1337.

[TheAmazingElk]

Minmatar Titan V.

[Agathor]

Looking at the title of this thread I came in fully prepared to type Advanced Weapon Upgrades V, but after reading a few I would have to agree that Curse + Recon V = 1337.

AWU 5 is nice, if your char is over 1 year old then you should really have it. If you are using guns that is. If you are missile duder, you might never need it until you go for a capital.

[Combat Scrub]

You got that backwards. AWU 5 ALWAYS helps and recon v or logi 5 only help some ships.

Several people have mentioned what Rec V does for the fitting of a recon, but I wonder if any of them tried those fits with AWU 4?

Recon V lets you fit both types of cyno gens on a rapier, useful when you're out fishing and want to be able to call in the big guns. AWU5 doesn't in that case.

Although always is a dangerous word, AWU 5 helps fit any gunnery platform ship better. Recon V helps you fit a single class of ship better - the recons. If the only ship you ever fly is a Recon, and your fit can't benefit from AWU 5, good for you. But if you fly a variety of ships and classes of ships that require guns for DPS, AWU 5 is more applicable.

[vexter]

I lost awu V on my alt. It is sorely missed. I need a PG4 now. Im reminded all over how much a grind it is to wait for this to finish

[Oldgit]

Logi V
JDC V
Recon V
AWU V

Not necessarily in that order, but they're all essential, IMO.

Personally I'd go with that, yeah there's a lot of other skills you should have at 5, but the bonuses for these skills do make up for the grind to V (kinda)