NC Postmortem

[Blazde]

What Goons is doing with FA and the other "pet" corps who have helped Goons recently, is very different to how MM/Razor treated their allies

Damn right. NC was run very differently from the pet model we all despised GBC for and which Goons now emulates. Our allies(*) were alliances expected to stand and thrive on their own, in their own space and to manage it how they wanted. It was more of a federation. There were (between actual NC members) no handouts, loans, borders within borders, ranks, or feudal pet shit like that. RAWR/RZR didn't give stuff to our allies for the same reason they didn't give stuff to us: because they weren't below us, they weren't pets. If an alliance wanted more space the rest would help them take it. If they didn't they had what they had. When stuff got attacked there was collective defence. The stuff the major alliances accumulated over so many years living there of course tended to be greater than the newer alliances, but it was all stuff picked up as the spoils for winning successive major wars. If you survived through one of those wars and played your part you got a big piece of spoils at the end (eg. RZR getting Branch, RAWR getting Venal old-highends, PURE/IRON getting Dek, ME getting Vale, TCF getting Dek, RAGE getting Geminate). You know RAWR lived in crappy ol' Tribute for two years on 2 prom and 1 dysp moons before Tri imploded? Little hardship did us no harm and when we eventually got some decent moons we knew we'd grafted for them so no punk alliance 3 years later was going to get handed some of them for turning up with a 100 man fleet a few times. Even if you didn't play your part in the big wars sometimes if you just survived them there was so much cake you still got some. On the otherhand if you were John new alliance that showed up in peace-time wanting to jump on the NC bandwagon and live off other's success instantly, then proceeded to do nothing and make no play for your own space then all you got was grief from other alliances wondering why they had another useless blue. Incentive and responsibility, let's hope they're not dying values in EVE

There is many opinions what made the NC successful (by which I mean long-lasting) and what contributed to it's downfall, but personally in all the time I've played EVE the NON-pet structure we kept is about the most stable model I've seen in the face of invasion, despite that it proved hard to uphold towards the end once too many alliances jumped on the train and the north got overcrowded (among other problems). Pets really don't work. It doesn't matter how you treat them, they're still pets, and they know that


(*) Not the renters, fuck the renters. They're the scum of EVE, several steps below empire bear

[Phey Onat]

Yes, the NC expected alliances to thrive on their own, in their own space and to manage it how they wanted. Unless said space had tech moons in which case MM/RZR will manage those.

[Opti]

Yes, the NC expected alliances to thrive on their own, in their own space and to manage it how they wanted. Unless said space had tech moons in which case MM/RZR will manage those.

deff jelly

[Pilious]

Yes, the NC expected alliances to thrive on their own, in their own space and to manage it how they wanted. Unless said space had tech moons in which case MM/RZR will manage those.

Rage and ME both had tech in there own space, why are you so but hurt at the old NC cause we didn't grind sov structures so your alliance had somewhere to live or anything, oh wait we actually did. Never mind, could you inform the readers when BDEAL failurecascade is schedualled it seems you guys are having some issues.

[MtA]

deff jelly

Rage and ME both had tech in there own space, why are you so but hurt at the old NC cause we didn't grind sov structures so your alliance had somewhere to live or anything, oh wait we actually did. Never mind, could you inform the readers when BDEAL failurecascade is schedualled it seems you guys are having some issues.

Look at these two fine specimens. How could the NC fail so bad with fine gentlemen such as these?

[Phey Onat]

No, you're both right, Fade and PB residents had complete control over moons of their individual localities.

Ask Riv when we are cascading. It's his own world he resides in so he will know more about it than any of the management or ceos of BDEAL do.

[Kaeydan]

Yeah I have to say here, although it's not about Delve as such, I was very surprised by Mitten's announcement the other day. What Goons is doing with FA and the other "pet" corps who have helped Goons recently, is very different to how MM/Razor treated their allies. Goon HC are giving their allies an incentive - and honouring that. You helped us? Here's your own region. You show up a lot in fleets? Here's 6 tech moons (40-50b a month - a Titan almost or like 4 SCs).

That is how they should treat their allies. MM have never had a history of being "straight up" and "fair" to their allies. MM and Razor took all the good shit for themselves, sharing none of it, demanding their pets and renters sacrifice themselves to save them whilst offering nothing in return except abuse and hostility.

Mittens really surprised me with what he's done - and that is how it should be.


EDIT: removed the twilight zone bizarro bit where Wusti was in the NC

Can you expand on what big bad MM had thieved from other alliances and if this was relatively recent or not. In my time the only jewgold of note we had was Tribute, parts of Venal (because Tribute blew) and some low-sec shit close by. Part of the reason we never decided to hold multiple regions, when we could have, was that nobody could be arsed to do the fucking logistical nightmare of it all.

[Dental Floss]

What exactly were the serious threats to the NC's continued existence? A half baked campaign to disband the NC without actually taking their space led by an egomaniac? Various iterations of Triumvirate that would grief Pure Blind and then failcascade when they lost some fights? They assumed a defensive existence where the lion's share of resources went to MM. They claimed they needed more tech so they could build more supers and that they needed more supers so they could defend their tech. Whether you want to call them pets or not, it was the "You are pets" attitude that got CO2 reset and FA more recently. It was the overlord status that demanded MM's call was the final call. And it was once the NC faced an equally sized, well organized, similarly armed enemy that they collapsed like a house of cards, so I'd dare to say that it wasn't that MM's model was inherently superior -- it was the same model with a different name on it, but with a frail and withering alliance at the head.

You even just described how after a successful campaign, MM would hand out cake to everyone involved -- which is exactly what goons just did. The difference is that when Goons faced their enemies, they were organized and effective, while when MM faced a serious opponent, they proved to be rotten to the core.

[Blazde]

Yes, the NC expected alliances to thrive on their own, in their own space and to manage it how they wanted. Unless said space had tech moons in which case MM/RZR will manage those.

By my count the NC existed for over 5 years. For just 1.5 of those years Technetium was interesting, and for 1 of those 1.5 it was only just barely interesting Edit: Oh hey and I forgot that remaining 6 months was when PL had all our tech. See we were generous

What exactly were the serious threats to the NC's continued existence?

This isn't the thread for it. Go make a "Hi I'd like somone to tell me about NC's history" topic if you're serious and be sure to mention as a starting point that you have no clue about the Co2 thing

[Phey Onat]

By my count the NC existed for over 5 years. For just 1.5 of those years Technetium was interesting, and for 1 of those 1.5 it was only just barely interesting

You're correct. My point was just an example of your inaccuracy.

[Hratli Smirks]

Damn right. NC was run very differently from the pet model we all despised GBC for and which Goons now emulates. Our allies(*) were alliances expected to stand and thrive on their own, in their own space and to manage it how they wanted. It was more of a federation. There were (between actual NC members) no handouts, loans, borders within borders, ranks, or feudal pet shit like that. RAWR/RZR didn't give stuff to our allies for the same reason they didn't give stuff to us: because they weren't below us, they weren't pets. If an alliance wanted more space the rest would help them take it. If they didn't they had what they had. When stuff got attacked there was collective defence. The stuff the major alliances accumulated over so many years living there of course tended to be greater than the newer alliances, but it was all stuff picked up as the spoils for winning successive major wars. If you survived through one of those wars and played your part you got a big piece of spoils at the end (eg. RZR getting Branch, RAWR getting Venal old-highends, PURE/IRON getting Dek, ME getting Vale, TCF getting Dek, RAGE getting Geminate). You know RAWR lived in crappy ol' Tribute for two years on 2 prom and 1 dysp moons before Tri imploded? Little hardship did us no harm and when we eventually got some decent moons we knew we'd grafted for them so no punk alliance 3 years later was going to get handed some of them for turning up with a 100 man fleet a few times. Even if you didn't play your part in the big wars sometimes if you just survived them there was so much cake you still got some. On the otherhand if you were John new alliance that showed up in peace-time wanting to jump on the NC bandwagon and live off other's success instantly, then proceeded to do nothing and make no play for your own space then all you got was grief from other alliances wondering why they had another useless blue. Incentive and responsibility, let's hope they're not dying values in EVE

There is many opinions what made the NC successful (by which I mean long-lasting) and what contributed to it's downfall, but personally in all the time I've played EVE the NON-pet structure we kept is about the most stable model I've seen in the face of invasion, despite that it proved hard to uphold towards the end once too many alliances jumped on the train and the north got overcrowded (among other problems). Pets really don't work. It doesn't matter how you treat them, they're still pets, and they know that


(*) Not the renters, fuck the renters. They're the scum of EVE, several steps below empire bear

holy fuck the NC was essentially a boot stomping on a guest's face forever and everything else you wrote was pretty much bullshit. The NC was explicitly set up like a feudal system with the guests holding their space at the pleasure of their sponsors who could set whatever the fuck rules they wanted like "you stay in the three systems we gave you and oh yeah we get the moons and if we want any of the stuff we did give you later we'll take it toodles"

essentially you are saying the NC was a council of equals if the only people you count are 'full NC' members which is literally like saying 1970s South Africa was awesome so long as you weren't black

[Seymore Graves]

Damn right. NC was run very differently from the pet model we all despised GBC for and which Goons now emulates. Our allies(*) were alliances expected to stand and thrive on their own, in their own space and to manage it how they wanted. It was more of a federation. There were (between actual NC members) no handouts, loans, borders within borders, ranks, or feudal pet shit like that. RAWR/RZR didn't give stuff to our allies for the same reason they didn't give stuff to us: because they weren't below us, they weren't pets. If an alliance wanted more space the rest would help them take it. If they didn't they had what they had. When stuff got attacked there was collective defence. The stuff the major alliances accumulated over so many years living there of course tended to be greater than the newer alliances, but it was all stuff picked up as the spoils for winning successive major wars. If you survived through one of those wars and played your part you got a big piece of spoils at the end (eg. RZR getting Branch, RAWR getting Venal old-highends, PURE/IRON getting Dek, ME getting Vale, TCF getting Dek, RAGE getting Geminate). You know RAWR lived in crappy ol' Tribute for two years on 2 prom and 1 dysp moons before Tri imploded? Little hardship did us no harm and when we eventually got some decent moons we knew we'd grafted for them so no punk alliance 3 years later was going to get handed some of them for turning up with a 100 man fleet a few times. Even if you didn't play your part in the big wars sometimes if you just survived them there was so much cake you still got some. On the otherhand if you were John new alliance that showed up in peace-time wanting to jump on the NC bandwagon and live off other's success instantly, then proceeded to do nothing and make no play for your own space then all you got was grief from other alliances wondering why they had another useless blue. Incentive and responsibility, let's hope they're not dying values in EVE

There is many opinions what made the NC successful (by which I mean long-lasting) and what contributed to it's downfall, but personally in all the time I've played EVE the NON-pet structure we kept is about the most stable model I've seen in the face of invasion, despite that it proved hard to uphold towards the end once too many alliances jumped on the train and the north got overcrowded (among other problems). Pets really don't work. It doesn't matter how you treat them, they're still pets, and they know that


(*) Not the renters, fuck the renters. They're the scum of EVE, several steps below empire bear

How can you possibly claim your "guests" where anything but pets?

The model you claim was so very different to what has been done in the past in fact conformed to more or less everything that defines someone as a pet. The full NC members handed smaller alliances pockets of generally subpar space in exchange for them brining numbers on fleets, if these numbers were not satisfactory the guest could be removed. The larger coalition members held onto the "spoils" of various past wars and only distributed what was absolutely necessary to the smaller guests. The reason there were no handouts of any sort had nothing to do with allowing smaller alliances to stand on their own two feet and everything to do with larger alliances not wanting to give up their own sources of income.

The idea that the various larger Alliances earned what they received in some long past war is also ridiculous, the frantic grab of previously unwanted tech moons by the larger alliances following the moon rebalance demonstrated this clearly. Whilst the GBC's pet model you claim to despise was itself deeply flawed, the NC did not in fact set itself apart from the past pet/master Alliance relationships and really was the epitome of traditional EVE Feudalism.

The only real defining feature of the NC's system was its amazing ability to foster totally useless Alliances. Said Alliances where constantly unable to improve or grow due to the larger Alliances strangleholds on resources, constant poaching of better members, a coalition leadership that was effectively an old boys club and a culture of stagnation. I believe that it is by avoiding these pitfalls that the clusterfuck has managed to achieve what it has so far.

[Some Market Dude]

sweet, i'm glad others chose to invest some time and effort to properly address that load of absolute horseshit

saves me the trouble, which means more time for trolling

[Malcanis]

Damn right. NC was run very differently from the pet model we all despised GBC for and which Goons now emulates. Our allies(*) were alliances expected to stand and thrive on their own, in their own space and to manage it how they wanted.

Unless they had a moon that MM wanted, in which case it was taken from them at gunpoint.

This is specifically what happened to INIT. They weren't even good moons, just shitty Chromium ones or something. The NC was a "coalition of equals" all right... as long as no-one ever forgot for one second that MM was way more equal than anyone else.

[Dental Floss]

This isn't the thread for it. Go make a "Hi I'd like somone to tell me about NC's history" topic if you're serious and be sure to mention as a starting point that you have no clue about the Co2 thing

You brought it up, and having had an alt in CO2's holding corp, I'd like to say I know what happened.

[Mellow Yellow]

This thread is now about NC internal politics and resource management.

aka, bring on the zyklon-b

[Dental Floss]

Hey, he posted a wall of bullshit. Everyone else just saw fit to call him on said bullshit.

[Pilious]

WORDS.

So your saying any CFC member can tell goons no thanks we are not showing to your op to save your space and that will be cool? I highly doubt that since space was abandoned by CFC members to make sure they could serve their goonie masters. You have done nothing to prove that you somehow are going to work out better then the NC. As far a pouching better members what happened with WIdot? You not only pouched but then forced the people that did not want to join goons to pack up and leave. Just saying Pot, Keddle's calling here.

Master Pet or what ever you call it is always going to be the way of coalitions. I highly doubt Gents, or FA will ever be able to say to Goons we do not agree with you. Don't be delusional, Goons build exactly what the NC was, exept it's a dictatorship where only Goons is in charge so there will be no clash of egos outside of Goons over anything. Towards the end I agree the NC was becoming more of a dictatorship, and RAWR had to resolve stupid arguements between NC members ect. Mainly because other full members like MH decided they were going to go with goons, and Razor was well Razor.

[Kaeydan]

What exactly were the serious threats to the NC's continued existence? A half baked campaign to disband the NC without actually taking their space led by an egomaniac? Various iterations of Triumvirate that would grief Pure Blind and then failcascade when they lost some fights? They assumed a defensive existence where the lion's share of resources went to MM. They claimed they needed more tech so they could build more supers and that they needed more supers so they could defend their tech. Whether you want to call them pets or not, it was the "You are pets" attitude that got CO2 reset and FA more recently. It was the overlord status that demanded MM's call was the final call. And it was once the NC faced an equally sized, well organized, similarly armed enemy that they collapsed like a house of cards, so I'd dare to say that it wasn't that MM's model was inherently superior -- it was the same model with a different name on it, but with a frail and withering alliance at the head.

You even just described how after a successful campaign, MM would hand out cake to everyone involved -- which is exactly what goons just did. The difference is that when Goons faced their enemies, they were organized and effective, while when MM faced a serious opponent, they proved to be rotten to the core.

CO2 were monumental cocksuckers who would frequently attack people who were on the NC blue list. Vuk knew some of their leaders irl and went to bat for them on many an occasion until he was overwhelming by internal rage and he had no choice but to remove them from the coalition. That wasn't MM's final word, nobody wanted CO2 around.

The NC model was fine, it had a few minor issues which were raised and never addressed. There was too much coalition protection of alliances against minor threats, they should have been forced to defend their space against threats they should have been able to handle. There were too many shitty alliances in the NC who made little to no grounds in terms of improving themselves, when there weren't major wars on they would just totally carebear up and not actively work to improve on their many issues.

Had Goons come in and decided to share the load then the coalition could have survived, but the coalition concept doesn't work well if you pick and choose when you will come in or not and who you will fight against. It just doesn't work that way. That isn't blaming goons, they have their own agenda. MM had to abandon the NC given the lack of potency left in the core alliances. It should have been done after the NC vs SC fiasco though. Even then it was plainly obvious the writing was on the wall.

[CCP Nozh]

~Word~

you were great when you were living with few high end moons but turned bad when you had shit ton of isk. If you distribute the isk and make sure your allies bring quality ships to the fight, defence/offense should be fine. FA/Gents/TNT will be doing much better in terms of ship replacements.

[Perseus Kallistratos]

So your saying any CFC member can tell goons no thanks we are not showing to your op to save your space and that will be cool? I highly doubt that since space was abandoned by CFC members to make sure they could serve their goonie masters. You have done nothing to prove that you somehow are going to work out better then the NC. As far a pouching better members what happened with WIdot? You not only pouched but then forced the people that did not want to join goons to pack up and leave. Just saying Pot, Keddle's calling here.

Master Pet or what ever you call it is always going to be the way of coalitions. I highly doubt Gents, or FA will ever be able to say to Goons we do not agree with you. Don't be delusional, Goons build exactly what the NC was, exept it's a dictatorship where only Goons is in charge so there will be no clash of egos outside of Goons over anything. Towards the end I agree the NC was becoming more of a dictatorship, and RAWR had to resolve stupid arguements between NC members ect. Mainly because other full members like MH decided they were going to go with goons, and Razor was well Razor.

Why the fuck would goons come participate in half baked ops with half assed FCing, terrible for morale and even worse because half the people who lived there were already evacced or evaccing instead of fighting. Goonswarm is now fighting (successfully) for their own space with great participation (and I don't see a mass exodus, they are there fighting). Had they burnt themselves out on shitty run ops earlier this would not be happening. The sad part is you aren't up there helping right now.

[Pilious]

Why the fuck would goons come participate in half baked ops with half assed FCing, terrible for morale and even worse because half the people who lived there were already evacced or evaccing instead of fighting. Goonswarm is now fighting (successfully) for their own space with great participation. Had they burnt themselves and shitty run ops earlier this would not be happening. The sad part is you aren't up there helping.

Maybe try and read what I wrote before spurging thank you however for your internet nerd rage.

[MtA]

So your saying any CFC member can tell goons no thanks we are not showing to your op to save your space and that will be cool? I highly doubt that since space was abandoned by CFC members to make sure they could serve their goonie masters. You have done nothing to prove that you somehow are going to work out better then the NC. As far a pouching better members what happened with WIdot? You not only pouched but then forced the people that did not want to join goons to pack up and leave. Just saying Pot, Keddle's calling here.

Master Pet or what ever you call it is always going to be the way of coalitions. I highly doubt Gents, or FA will ever be able to say to Goons we do not agree with you. Don't be delusional, Goons build exactly what the NC was, exept it's a dictatorship where only Goons is in charge so there will be no clash of egos outside of Goons over anything. Towards the end I agree the NC was becoming more of a dictatorship, and RAWR had to resolve stupid arguements between NC members ect. Mainly because other full members like MH decided they were going to go with goons, and Razor was well Razor.

Oh, everyone is supposed to show up and fight. The difference is, Goons treat everyone in the alliance exactly the same, and sometimes even the whole CFC gets the same benefits as if they were a part of GSF.

There's a big difference between "You're trash, but you're supposed to fight for me" and "You're supposed to fight for me, but your members get what my members get."

[Blazde]

How can you possibly claim your "guests" where anything but pets?

The guest system was used by different alliances over the years for many different things. Since RAWR was mentioned specifically: We NEVER had renters or anything approaching a pet definition. Nine times out of ten our 'guests' were just us loaning slottage to to other NC alliances (yes the slot system was retarded on principle but it was our best effort at keeping blue numbers down and worked relatively well at that). But yes as I said NC alliances (and I did specify actual NC members) ran their own space, and if they wanted to put renters or their pets into it they could and did. That's one of the perks of running your own space. Noone counted on guests putting bodies in fleets and for strategic purposes, internally, guests weren't considered part of the NC

Anyway it's semantics what was NC and what wasn't. But very clearly there is a difference between one alliance running a Greater-alliance-Community relying on pets to defend it as the big daddy, and 4-6 alliances working together to defend each other's independently run space, which may or may not be it's own mini-coalition with renters. RAWR didn't give a shit about it's allies' pets because we had proper top-tier alliances as allies instead

[Hratli Smirks]

[ASK] Morsus Mihi about the tech moons they had in Pure Blind (I know they had them because we ended up with them when MM evacced)

i mean w/e guys its all in the past but this insistence that the NC was this shining city on a hill is bordering on insulting

[Phey Onat]

Blazde already said that year and a half didn't count.

[Razzor]

The guest system was used by different alliances over the years for many different things. Since RAWR was mentioned specifically: We NEVER had renters or anything approaching a pet definition. Nine times out of ten our 'guests' were just us loaning slottage to to other NC alliances (yes the slot system was retarded on principle but it was our best effort at keeping blue numbers down and worked relatively well at that). But yes as I said NC alliances (and I did specify actual NC members) ran their own space, and if they wanted to put renters or their pets into it they could and did. That's one of the perks of running your own space. Noone counted on guests putting bodies in fleets and for strategic purposes, internally, guests weren't considered part of the NC

Anyway it's semantics what was NC and what wasn't. But very clearly there is a difference between one alliance running a Greater-alliance-Community relying on pets to defend it as the big daddy, and 4-6 alliances working together to defend each other's independently run space, which may or may not be it's own mini-coalition with renters. RAWR didn't give a shit about it's allies' pets because we had proper top-tier alliances as allies instead

This is literally the reason NC fell to shit. Not the post, the complete and utter delusion.

[Dental Floss]

The guest system was used by different alliances over the years for many different things. Since RAWR was mentioned specifically: We NEVER had renters or anything approaching a pet definition. Nine times out of ten our 'guests' were just us loaning slottage to to other NC alliances (yes the slot system was retarded on principle but it was our best effort at keeping blue numbers down and worked relatively well at that). But yes as I said NC alliances (and I did specify actual NC members) ran their own space, and if they wanted to put renters or their pets into it they could and did. That's one of the perks of running your own space. Noone counted on guests putting bodies in fleets and for strategic purposes, internally, guests weren't considered part of the NC

Anyway it's semantics what was NC and what wasn't. But very clearly there is a difference between one alliance running a Greater-alliance-Community relying on pets to defend it as the big daddy, and 4-6 alliances working together to defend each other's independently run space, which may or may not be it's own mini-coalition with renters. RAWR didn't give a shit about it's allies' pets because we had proper top-tier alliances as allies instead

It might be semantics for you internally, but then again, you're not exactly an objective judge of your own coalition. Rather, I prefer a simpler definition for the NC and I think most people will agree with me on this:

If you're blue to the NC, you're in the NC.

Fuck your guest status or full member status, blue is blue and in the end, all of them were equally terrible.

[Internet Spaceships]

To whichever mod moved this out of the Delve thread - thank you <3

[Qui Binder]

To whichever mod moved this out of the Delve thread - thank you <3

Ditto *\o/*

[redsaber]

Blazde already said that year and a half didn't count.

before that it was dyspro, amazingly enough most of the dyspro was ALSO in MM hands ;psyduck;

[Blazde]

And before that we owned all the t2 BPO right

[Phey Onat]

no "and den"

[Securitas]

Though the CFC-affiliated posters are largely right about the NC, they were singing a far different tune before the DRF business.

[jagidrok]

To be fair, how could anyone in the CFC save some of those from Vale/Geminate criticize the NC?

Razor and MM may not have been the best coalition leaders but they had a history of helping grind structures in Fountain and Delve. No one was excited about resetting the NC but considering the last few months, it's difficult to stay sympathetic; although I must admit, I still have good feelings about Razor even if they're likely not the same people that helped Goonfleet in Delve

[Stronke]

NC was gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaay

[Junior SvK]

omg, these delusional -nc-hate grunts- with totally no idea how it worked in nc or not worked.

if someone telling that rawr took techs left and right off from guest or smaller members of nc ( mh, rage,me etc ) is stupid.

[Phey Onat]

Though the CFC-affiliated posters are largely right about the NC, they were singing a far different tune before the DRF business.

I challenge you, sir, to find a quote where I praised the wonders the NC bestowed on allies.




And Junior, I never understand what you are saying/typing, but I do enjoy trying.

[Perseus Kallistratos]

aaaaay

I approve.

[Perseus Kallistratos]

omg, these delusional -nc-hate grunts- with totally no idea how it worked in nc or not worked.

if someone telling that rawr took techs left and right off from guest or smaller members of nc ( mh, rage,me etc ) is stupid.

However, if someone says they treated other alliances as inferior despite being terrible themselves they would still be right, right?

[Malcanis]

because we had proper top-tier alliances as allies instead

This is too priceless to let it die. Oh god, "top-tier". Oh wow.

[Hratli Smirks]

omg, these delusional -nc-hate grunts- with totally no idea how it worked in nc or not worked.

if someone telling that rawr took techs left and right off from guest or smaller members of nc ( mh, rage,me etc ) is stupid.

How would you describe the situation surrounding MM's PB tech moons. I mean I assume you are going to tell me MM owned those moons by right of "we run shit" which is fine but it isn't exactly the carefree 'bros bein bros' picture that you budding picassos are frantically trying to paint

I mean from my perspective we had "full nc" members trying all sorts of moon bullshit with us from MH and ME to Stella Fucking Polaris so it is difficult for me to credit the revisionist history going on here

[Perseus Kallistratos]

How would you describe the situation surrounding MM's PB tech moons. I mean I assume you are going to tell me MM owned those moons by right of "we run shit" which is fine but it isn't exactly the carefree 'bros bein bros' picture that you budding picassos are frantically trying to paint

I mean from my perspective we had "full nc" members trying all sorts of moon bullshit with us from MH and ME to Stella Fucking Polaris so it is difficult for me to credit the revisionist history going on here

Look at them now

Darwinism is a bitch

[Malcanis]

omg, these delusional -nc-hate grunts- with totally no idea how it worked in nc or not worked.

if someone telling that rawr took techs left and right off from guest or smaller members of nc ( mh, rage,me etc ) is stupid.

"Stupid" I may be, but I was in fleet and watching when MM forced us off our shitty moons. Were you there in Venal that day? Did you read Imperian's mea culpa? Sorry if the facts conflict with your dream of a fair, just, equable NC, but the fact is that if you're weren't MM (or I guess RZR) then MM took anything they wanted from you.

[Arrador]

How would you describe the situation surrounding MM's PB tech moons. I mean I assume you are going to tell me MM owned those moons by right of "we run shit" which is fine but it isn't exactly the carefree 'bros bein bros' picture that you budding picassos are frantically trying to paint

I mean from my perspective we had "full nc" members trying all sorts of moon bullshit with us from MH and ME to Stella Fucking Polaris so it is difficult for me to credit the revisionist history going on here

Now now, if you're talking about that venal tech incident, that was a corp op run by MTW and we were after a tech moon from these people: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/corp/JSR1_...IONS/alliances They left BCA, joined test, and then left test. It was a proper misunderstanding, BCA was cascading and we figured they were alliance hopping to evac assets. We even repped the tower once the incident was cleared :P

[BrutorWarrior]

As far a pouching better members what happened with WIdot? You not only pouched but then forced the people that did not want to join goons to pack up and leave. Just saying Pot, Keddle's calling here.

That's totally wrong. What happened with widot was all Tomcat's doing. He was tired of leading, wanted to ball everyone up into a legacy/culture corp and let goons do all the things like providing direction and activity. He made a deal with goons, he'd get all the pvpers of the alliance into the holding corp, and they wouldn't let anybody else in (no extra management and more incentive to join tomcat's corp I assume). It didn't quite work out that way in the end, but that's what went down. No matter how you look at it though, it definitely was not goonswarm poaching players.

[Kazanir]

What a great thread this is. I love that someone was both bitter and delusional enough to take a quote from Ralara and make a new thread about it so we could have this particular conversation.

[Mellow Yellow]

What a great thread this is. I love that someone was both bitter and delusional enough to take a quote from Ralara and make a new thread about it so we could have this particular conversation.

Got split from the delve thread. Not disagreeing on the bitter/delusional part though.

[Berious]

Bladze is like a conservative that claims he really just wants to help the unemployed by abolishing welfare so they're forced to pull themselves up by their BOOTSTRAPS

[Mellow Yellow]

That's totally wrong. What happened with widot was all Tomcat's doing. He was tired of leading, wanted to ball everyone up into a legacy/culture corp and let goons do all the things like providing direction and activity. He made a deal with goons, he'd get all the pvpers of the alliance into the holding corp, and they wouldn't let anybody else in (no extra management and more incentive to join tomcat's corp I assume). It didn't quite work out that way in the end, but that's what went down. No matter how you look at it though, it definitely was not goonswarm poaching players.

Yeah, was a pretty amicable split. From what I remember some corps (ie NoX) were even going to join GSF as solo corps, but when the number that wanted to do that got too high someone put their foot down and the "join WInodot or leave" policy began. I guess to some degree tomcat overestimated the number of pilots and corps that wouldn't fold in, but I'd say both "sides" to the matter got what they wanted in the end and are doing fine. Corps had the better part of a month to get their stuff out, and ex-WI. RMT members still have forum access and what not.