The Hundred Days' War (~New Northern Thread~)

[Mr Rivers]

I think it's fair to say that we're very competent at an organizational/political/strategic level, but the core member is bad at eve and often new to the game. There was a time where goons were 'hard' at the member level, but the jump bridge idiocy made the common member soft and complacent, something I'm in overdrive trying to fix. The wiki is ancient - it died and stopped being updated around the time that jump bridges rendered individual survival 'optional' and most of the fits there are utterly laughable, which is something I've been working on getting fixed with our new reimbursement directors and shifting peacetime reimb to specific fits.

Alphafleet owns and our fcs who came up with it own; our allies who didn't adopt it when we offered it nicely to them are all dead - we tried to get the NC to take it repeatedly and they mostly turned up their noses at it or called it outright inferior to arty abaddons or whatever nonsense they were sent howling to their graves with. It doesn't require much individual 'skill' to pilot a Mael and blast the primary, all the same.

I dunno. Since we don't have any recruiting requirements and are constantly educating folks entirely new to eve - and I have a 2005 mindset since that's where I began - I tend to think of us as the underdogs, fighting off better-skilled veteran players with more sp and better pvp track records. On a pilot-per-pilot basis that's probably true. Organizationally/politically, you're right - it's not fair to say we're incompetent.

This is your problem though. You ARE very good at subcap things, but in a game which is all about supers, you miss out on some very basic points. I was astounded yesterday when as soon as the titans came on grid you all just fucked off. Its almost as if you have no interest in killing supers at all. Its all fine and dandy saying titans are so overpowered and we cant face them so we wont even try, but thats bullshit. I mean you had 300 fucking guys yesterday, sat in a pos, after decimating our support fleets, and you didnt even try to do anything with it.

[DaiTengu]

That's actually a solid point - the GSF directorate is full of frighteningly educated types who've been uncommonly successful irl. We have four+ lawyers, a couple of millionares, a champion poker player/lawyer, a gaggle of high-end computer types, etc. We also have some stereotypical nerds, but since I seem to be one of the few alliance leaders willing to fire people regularly (we lose a director a month, thereabouts) so we roughly approach a meritocracy.

I hate firing people, it's the worst part of the job, especially when it's someone I know and play games with/am bros with. But nepotism and incompetence is the death of alliances.

Don't fire me, bro. I promise to stop losing supercaps!

[Venetian Tar]

Don't fire me, bro. I promise to stop losing supercaps!

Keep losing them, it gives us fights.

[Vee]

This is your problem though. You ARE very good at subcap things, but in a game which is all about supers, you miss out on some very basic points. I was astounded yesterday when as soon as the titans came on grid you all just fucked off. Its almost as if you have no interest in killing supers at all. Its all fine and dandy saying titans are so overpowered and we cant face them so we wont even try, but thats bullshit. I mean you had 300 fucking guys yesterday, sat in a pos, after decimating our support fleets, and you didnt even try to do anything with it.

ok rive, you teach me how to fight 110 supers + two 80-90 man tengu fleets + two half-dead abaddon fleets with 400 support when all of us have to relog 3 times to get the node responsive again

anyway, yesterday boils down to two things: you fucked up catching our supers in c8 (i dont even know how the fuck you fail that while staging nextdoor) and if we hadn't crashed, the jammer would never have died -- whatever is causing these crashes saved you from a wipeout and humiliation

for those of you without the overview on numbers in this fight, jammer was at 60% by the time we had relogged and warped to the jammer, abaddonfleet was ~55% dead from 60% to incap on the jammer -- we weren't far off outrepping the damage in the last few minutes

[Mira Z]

Truth has a clay like viscosity too it, you can make some fine things out of it.

Provided you don't mind twisting and squashing it out of shape?

I've always found the propagandising (and the sheer number of idiots that buy it) from Goonswarm somewhat distasteful. It was one of the reasons I chose to move on rather than merge into WIcorp.

[The Mittani]

This is your problem though. You ARE very good at subcap things, but in a game which is all about supers, you miss out on some very basic points. I was astounded yesterday when as soon as the titans came on grid you all just fucked off. Its almost as if you have no interest in killing supers at all. Its all fine and dandy saying titans are so overpowered and we cant face them so we wont even try, but thats bullshit. I mean you had 300 fucking guys yesterday, sat in a pos, after decimating our support fleets, and you didnt even try to do anything with it.

Eve's a game about math, when it comes to straight up fights. We've done the math, this isn't Gurren Lagann where we can ~spiral power~ and win through sheer spirit.

Instead, we take the metagame to the next level and work around it. That's probably the greatest weakness of 'elite' alliances who are obsessed with being the 'best' by traditional metrics, a lack of long-term perspective.

[Razzor]

You gonna let them both talk to you like that Mr Rive ? come on man stand up for yourself

[The Mittani]

It is really good to see Goons step up since I stopped playing, and something I said two years ago which I was mocked about btw was that I said Goons could bounce back and be a force up North if it could just get their shit together at the leadership level. It is not that they take the game ultra seriously, it is just that the leadership at present isn't as incompetent as it was previously.

Like the old NC, it is not elitism that made them a powerful entity in their prime, it was the sheer numbers. If they can follow adopted minimum standards it just makes them more effective, not elite. It doesn't mean taking the game seriously either, it just means you have more of a chance of not getting your face pushed in. You need the leadership to be serious, you just need the rank and file to just meet basic requirements and get people motivated to play by having fun.

A fair criticism of the 'mostly unserious' GSF is that the leadership is way, way, way too serious about a bad space game. We in Illuminati do take it seriously, because someone has to - and that allows thousands of adorable newbies in rifters and not-so-newbies in Maels run around, bump into things, and generally get into trouble without having to fret about things which occupy the minds of line-level pilots in most other alliances.

[Mira Z]

A fair criticism of the 'mostly unserious' GSF is that the leadership is way, way, way too serious about a bad space game. We in Illuminati do take it seriously, because someone has to - and that allows thousands of adorable newbies in rifters and not-so-newbies in Maels run around, bump into things, and generally get into trouble without having to fret about things which occupy the minds of line-level pilots in most other alliances.

Maybe you should add the phrase "it's for their own good" to this post...

[Vonqueesha Shenaynay]

You gonna let them both talk to you like that Mr Rive ? come on man stand up for yourself

Let him handle it. No need to try and push him around.

[Manny]

Eve's a game about math, when it comes to straight up fights. We've done the math, this isn't Gurren Lagann where we can ~spiral power~ and win through sheer spirit.

Instead, we take the metagame to the next level and work around it. That's probably the greatest weakness of 'elite' alliances who are obsessed with being the 'best' by traditional metrics, a lack of long-term perspective.

For some instances you are correct. However passion can play a big role and besides its a video game where pixels matter not. Rydis told me GSF has the means to replace 1000s of Maelstroms without sweating too much. With that said throw caution and your calculator to the wind and go balls deep(this is why I was on my poasting gimmick that goons have lost that goonie feeling. Stop analyzing so much and just let your dick swing ). That's where the real fun is for your FC's and Linemembers.

Vee - I respect you as a FC and think your p.fuckin good at it. However there have been so many times you could have nuked a super and lost BS about it. Because who gives fucks about a few insurable BS that can be replaced easily. In case you missed the memo there is a serious supply shortage of supercap production in Eve with the removal of over 150 NC CSAAs. Stainwagons purge of southern CSAA's and AAA's recent mass abortion of WN's production cue. Supercaps in the interim are hard to replace as it is a Seller's market as supply has bottomed out.

*Edit - couple corrections and clarifications

[Roark Garnet]

the GSF directorate is full of frighteningly educated types who've been uncommonly successful irl. We have four+ lawyers

Dude, being a lawyer is really nothing fucking special. I know a good amount of lawyer IRL, I would not call them " frighteningly educated types who've been uncommonly successful irl".
Of course some are overly cocky without reason ...

[The Mittani]

Dude, being a lawyer is really nothing fucking special. I know a good amount of lawyer IRL, I would not call them "uncommonly successful IRL".
Of course some are overly cocky without reason .. but that's not your case right ?

We're realtalking now to restore some value to this thread, take your sour grapes elsewhere while Grath, Rive, Vee and I chitchat.

[Pripyat]

I for one am mostly surprised how many people actually believe the bullshit feeded to them from their HC, and this is both true for Goons and NERP.

[Vee]

Vee - I respect you as a FC and think your p.fuckin good at it. However there have been so many times you could have nuked a super and lost BS about it. Because who gives fucks about a few insurable BS that can be replaced easily. In case you missed the memo there is a serious supply shortage of supercap production in Eve with the removal of over 150 NC CSAAs. Stainwagons purge of southern CSAA's and AAA's recent mass abortion of WN's production cue. Supercaps in the interim are hard to replace as it is a Seller's market as supply has bottomed out.

Succesfully hotdropping supers when you're outnumbered 3:1 (in that class of ships) depends on having intel, much like with PL fighting NC. I haven't had live intel on any of your alliances since the beginning of this conflict, which makes it too risky, unfortunately.

[The Mittani]

For some instances you are correct. However passion can play a big role and besides its a video game where pixels matter not. Rydis told me GSF has the means to replace 1000s of Maelstroms without sweating too much. With that said throw caution and your calculator to the wind and go balls deep(this is why I was on my poasting gimmick that goons have lost that goonie feeling. Stop analyzing so much and just let your dick swing ). That's where the real fun is for your FC's and Linemembers.

Vee - I respect you as a FC and think your p.fuckin good at it. However there have been so many times you could have nuked a super and lost BS about it. Because who gives fucks about a few insurable BS that can be replaced easily. In case you missed the memo there is a serious supply shortage of supercap production in Eve with the removal of over 150 NC CSAAs. Stainwagons purge of southern CSAA's and AAA's recent mass abortion of WN's production cue. Supercaps in the interim are hard to replace as it is a Seller's market as supply has bottomed out.

*Edit - couple corrections and clarifications

We've run the numbers extensively and there's not really a configuration of subcaps that works against the now-common super blob. Sure, you can catch stragglers and gank, but that's not what we're discussing. You're welcome to correct us, but you're against the EFT wizardry of the very geniuses who designed Alphafleets (not me, i am bad at spaceships). Obviously CCP agrees that the current super situation is utter bullshit, as you can see in the interviews and tweets in the past two-three weeks.

[Disto]

This is your problem though. You ARE very good at subcap things, but in a game which is all about supers, you miss out on some very basic points. I was astounded yesterday when as soon as the titans came on grid you all just fucked off. Its almost as if you have no interest in killing supers at all. Its all fine and dandy saying titans are so overpowered and we cant face them so we wont even try, but thats bullshit. I mean you had 300 fucking guys yesterday, sat in a pos, after decimating our support fleets, and you didnt even try to do anything with it.

We engaged your fleets until we could no longer lock anyone. At which point Vee warped us out and the entire grid desynced, we logged back in at destination or halfway between if we logged out first. Once people finally got back in, they were instructed to get to the POS as everyone was literally everywhere between the POS and the battle. We formed up back in there while waiting for Vee to get back on, and waited while listening to him being frustated at Eve not working and idiots keying up, It turned out mainfleet was broken so we made a new fleet... And then it crashed again. When we finally had a working fleet again, we warp to the gate to see them jumping out.

[Ernie The Ishkur]

For some instances you are correct. However passion can play a big role and besides its a video game where pixels matter not. Rydis told me GSF has the means to replace 1000s of Maelstroms without sweating too much. With that said throw caution and your calculator to the wind and go balls deep...

Balls deep, throw caution? It's THE home system right? Any further battering of VFK after so much recent effort would have crucified grunt morale, losing a 1000 Maels would have been the least of their worries...

[Roark Garnet]

We're realtalking now to restore some value to this thread, take your sour grapes elsewhere while Grath, Rive, Vee and I chitchat.

I would pull that card too if I had nothing else to reply. I really would. It's a valid tactic.

[The Mittani]

I for one am mostly surprised how many people actually believe the bullshit feeded to them from their HC, and this is both true for Goons and NERP.

one of the funniest things as i get older in EVE TIME is that my position is increasingly secure and i know most of my 'enemies' from a very long ways back. so oddly enough i lie less and less, yet the more i'm accused of propagandizing vOv

[Manny]

We've run the numbers extensively and there's not really a configuration of subcaps that works against the now-common super blob. Sure, you can catch stragglers and gank, but that's not what we're discussing. You're welcome to correct us, but you're against the EFT wizardry of the very geniuses who designed Alphafleets (not me, i am bad at spaceships). Obviously CCP agrees that the current super situation is utter bullshit, as you can see in the interviews and tweets in the past two-three weeks.

K/D ratio's matter naught when dealing with supers. I guarenfrackintee you that if each time supers were fielded against you and you jihaded and ganked a super , supers would no longer be fielded against you in the fashion they are now.

[The Mittani]

K/D ratio's matter naught when dealing with supers. I guarenfrackintee you that if each time supers were fielded against you and you jihaded and ganked a super , supers would no longer be fielded against you in the fashion they are now.

We've done the math to see what it takes to jihad a super down. The most obvious template is your own throwaway Tempest fleet. It doesn't work when the enemy is in a blob and can be remote-repped en masse.

Again, you're arguing Gurren Lagann when the situation is one of raw mathematics. If there wasn't a problem, CCP wouldn't be loudly hinting at nerfing the damn things.

[Fisty]

To be perfectly honest it would require all of the maelstroms to alpha a super.


All of them.

[Vee]

K/D ratio's matter naught when dealing with supers. I guarenfrackintee you that if each time supers were fielded against you and you jihaded and ganked a super , supers would no longer be fielded against you in the fashion they are now.

I believe this was your theory vs abaddons with drakes. How did that work out?

[Roark Garnet]

The price difference is really not the same.

[Grath]

We've run the numbers extensively and there's not really a configuration of subcaps that works against the now-common super blob. Sure, you can catch stragglers and gank, but that's not what we're discussing. You're welcome to correct us, but you're against the EFT wizardry of the very geniuses who designed Alphafleets (not me, i am bad at spaceships). Obviously CCP agrees that the current super situation is utter bullshit, as you can see in the interviews and tweets in the past two-three weeks.

This is where our opinions on EVE warfare differ, and I have to wax into some shit that takes me dangerously close to comparing a game to real life.

There is no configuration of sub caps that can take on a superblob, much like there is no configuration of sub caps that can take on your 700 man maelstrom fleet. You are correct that the game is about math, but you're overlooking the human element, which will always be flawed. The human element takes you outside the math, it adds 'spirit' to the equation, which, while not exactly quantifiable, can be measured and dealt with separately.

I can't ever do anything to 700 maelstroms, and even if I somehow managed to put myself into a position that would allow me to field 700 men in a fleet of my own, the outcome will be more like a bloody Civil War picket line than a counter.

I have to beat your alliances spirit, I have to break it, make logging in so undesirable that your fleet numbers dwindle and die off, so that 7 becomes 5, becomes 3, becomes 200, that we can then engage.

The same is relatively true about supers. I have to hunt them, make them constantly nervous during form ups, make the slightest error while they are offline a critical mistake and begin to eat the outside edges of your blob OFF the battlefield. Its made easy by the human element, people bought these nice shiny ships and its hard to tell them to keep them logged off and actually have them listen, this past week showed that even in PL, while those supers were trapped it was a constant barrage of "anything today?" followed by "no its not time yet, we'll let you know don't be stupid". Preying on that stupidity, bloodying the nose of every faggot that steps out off the pack for even a second, breaks its will.

Much like your maelstrom fleet, the massive superfleets can't be directly attacked, the outcome is nearly always the same (slamming your face into a brick wall), you need to attack the humans at the keyboard first, and then, after a while, and you can FEEL when its time, you can engage the superfleet directly as its spirit was broken weeks before, and its numbers have shrank to a size that you can deal with.

tgr is all bitter because he just thinks I want you to fight our supers, and at some level he's right, but some things in EVE simply have no counter (like 250 fucking maelstroms), and need to be approached in a different manner if you intend to win.

[HUN73R]

We've done the math to see what it takes to jihad a super down.

You say you play the game for a long time and yet you still don't know there is more to it than just numbers. Sometimes you have to go out and actually take a risk if you wanna win. Nothing is unbeatable, there is only lack of motivation/preparation/skills.

[Mira Z]

much like there is no configuration of sub caps that can take on your 700 man maelstrom fleet.

Yet.

Time dilation will be a bit of a game changer when it comes through.

[Razzor]

I believe this was your theory vs abaddons with drakes. How did that work out?

burn

[Pripyat]

Nerf superior Numbers, Nerf Superscapitals.

[Venetian Tar]

Nerf EVE.

[Vee]

Nerf EVE.

Decide all major unfun conflicts in Eve in hon banning draft

[RideThis]

I wish molle would come back, his sperging was always fun to listen to. German sperging just isn't as entertaining.

[Kazanir]

Nerf superior Numbers, Nerf Superscapitals.

Supercapitals do the first thing quite handily!

[The Mittani]

This is where our opinions on EVE warfare differ, and I have to wax into some shit that takes me dangerously close to comparing a game to real life.

There is no configuration of sub caps that can take on a superblob, much like there is no configuration of sub caps that can take on your 700 man maelstrom fleet. You are correct that the game is about math, but you're overlooking the human element, which will always be flawed. The human element takes you outside the math, it adds 'spirit' to the equation, which, while not exactly quantifiable, can be measured and dealt with separately.

I can't ever do anything to 700 maelstroms, and even if I somehow managed to put myself into a position that would allow me to field 700 men in a fleet of my own, the outcome will be more like a bloody Civil War picket line than a counter.

I have to beat your alliances spirit, I have to break it, make logging in so undesirable that your fleet numbers dwindle and die off, so that 7 becomes 5, becomes 3, becomes 200, that we can then engage.

The same is relatively true about supers. I have to hunt them, make them constantly nervous during form ups, make the slightest error while they are offline a critical mistake and begin to eat the outside edges of your blob OFF the battlefield. Its made easy by the human element, people bought these nice shiny ships and its hard to tell them to keep them logged off and actually have them listen, this past week showed that even in PL, while those supers were trapped it was a constant barrage of "anything today?" followed by "no its not time yet, we'll let you know don't be stupid". Preying on that stupidity, bloodying the nose of every faggot that steps out off the pack for even a second, breaks its will.

Much like your maelstrom fleet, the massive superfleets can't be directly attacked, the outcome is nearly always the same (slamming your face into a brick wall), you need to attack the humans at the keyboard first, and then, after a while, and you can FEEL when its time, you can engage the superfleet directly as its spirit was broken weeks before, and its numbers have shrank to a size that you can deal with.

tgr is all bitter because he just thinks I want you to fight our supers, and at some level he's right, but some things in EVE simply have no counter (like 250 fucking maelstroms), and need to be approached in a different manner if you intend to win.

You're absolutely right about this, which is precisely why we frustrate your super pilots by scarpering every time they get their dicks hard about dropping on subcaps. It doesn't impact our morale - we all know the game presently is comically broken - and it results in quantifiable sperg-posts by the 'victimized' super jocks. And, of course, 'different approaches' include political, diplomatic and meta-moves, all of which we've been undertaking zealously. If you think we've been sitting idly by, then perhaps you're like Hunter and think that I 'still don't know there's more to it than numbers' after all these years of constant war.

Our Maelstrom fleets die with pleasing regularity. Sometimes we win, sometimes we welp. By and large, super blobs don't die, they just get larger and larger.

[MtA]

Nerf everything above Cruiser V!

[Razzor]

Nerf everything above Cruiser V!

Seriously though if the highest tier of ship in eve was a BC it would be one of the greatest games ever.

[Venetian Tar]

we all know the game presently is comically broken

Yes it is, that's half of the problem though.

When, not if, motherships get nerfed, how will alliances like PL who rely on them be able to cope? We all know that their subcap fleets will be slaughtered when we ping and get ~700 dudes logged in.

[Carebears]

Nerf everything above [s]Cruiser V[/S] Frigate III!

[Pripyat]

Seriously though if the highest tier of ship in eve was a BC it would be one of the greatest games ever.

One side would complain about the other side blobbing, one side would cry to nerf Falcons.

[Razzor]

When, not if, motherships get nerfed, how will alliances like PL who rely on them be able to cope? We all know that their subcap fleets will be slaughtered when we ping and get ~700 dudes logged in.

They will mostly be in Titans. The thing that worrys me a lot is how everyone thinks Titans are fine. I will never forget my bc roam in Russian space where a avatar nearly 4 shot my moving BC and literally 2 shot necro in his BC. How anyone thinks this is fixed is beyond me BUT I guess if you take the OP SC's away from the cap rape at least the BS gang can rely on triage carriers more and it makes suiciding a BS fleet more reasonable.

[Grath]

Our Maelstrom fleets die with pleasing regularity. Sometimes we win, sometimes we welp. By and large, super blobs don't die, they just get larger and larger.

Yea, I really think thats in the hit points and log off mechanics, they REALLY fucking need to fix those two things and the fucking things would start dropping like bricks, assuming people were willing to go after them.

I think the Rag and Hel should be the baseline hit points wise, the Aeon is fucking disturbingly hard tanked, I honestly have no clue what the devs were thinking when they gave it that many hp, and if the option of "logging off your supers to save them" was somehow removed from the table, more would die (though to be fair I don't think PL has ever logged supers to save them, much to our detriment at times, we usually fight our way out as best we can, or black screen and burn like boss vikings).

I don't know what to do about maels/arty, I mean, trying to make a ship that doesn't suck for a group of 10-20 guys to use and still not have it be a fucking rape wagon of destruction when you put 300 dudes in them is beyond my ability to reason through.


EDIT: And in 3 or 4 posts we shift this thread in the same direction every other thread on every forum goes (wat to do with supers).

Gonna go hang myself now.

[Kaeydan]

A fair criticism of the 'mostly unserious' GSF is that the leadership is way, way, way too serious about a bad space game. We in Illuminati do take it seriously, because someone has to - and that allows thousands of adorable newbies in rifters and not-so-newbies in Maels run around, bump into things, and generally get into trouble without having to fret about things which occupy the minds of line-level pilots in most other alliances.

But that is the thing, you can't do the job properly unless you take it seriously, there is a lot of man hours required just to handle the shit behind the scene that grunts typically don't even know exist. It is a sacrifice because nobody is going to pin a medal on your chest at the end of the day, but there is a lot of satisfaction that comes from putting that effort in and seeing things turn out okay.

Being a SA person from way back before I played eve, I know the type of people that come along, these guys play a lot of different video games and whilst a lot of them are pretty good gamers in general, eve has a massive learning curve and I found the information and direction GS had provided to noobs back in 2007ish era was pretty good because it let people who haven't invested years in the game to get to speed and be "useful" as soon as possible. I never joined goons in eve but I have experienced it in other games and mmos and people who haven't underestimate the community.

Behind the bravado it is a pretty good community, can be drama filled from time to time but in a game like eve that community is a massive strength given that numerical superiority is often a greater advantage than skill and experience, especially if well harnessed.

I think the goons of today shows the benefit of a leadership group that put the hard work and effort in and it is good to see. I think eve is a more interesting game with goons an active part of the overall community.

[Aokisensei]

ITT: Mittani makes two references to Gurren Lagann on one page. *mancrush increases tenfold*

(Your maels are the maels that will pierce the heavens?)

[faggotlegion]

If having to turtle up every time a supercapital pilot moves his mouse isn't hurting your morale, why do you constantly whinge about it?

But by all means, keep throwing the ~broken~ line out there. Bit by bit you may or may not sway popular opinion and get CCP to fall in the direction you're looking for. I'm not sure which would appeal to your ego more - having the nerf take place, or thinking that you'd actually influenced it.

[Mira Z]

Yes it is, that's half of the problem though.

When, not if, motherships get nerfed, how will alliances like PL who rely on them be able to cope? We all know that their subcap fleets will be slaughtered when we ping and get ~700 dudes logged in.

Did I mention time dilation?

At the moment the asymetrical counters to battleships don't work in the biggest fights because of lag. If CCP manage to get time dilation working as it should, it changes the game drastically for blobs. Imagine: bombs that actually go off where you want them to in a 1000 man fight.


For all people are moaning now about how a hundred guys in supercarriers can hold a several hundred man BS blob at bay, its going to be much worse when that BS blob gets ripped to shreds by 20 guys in bombers.

[Lucas Quaan]

When, not if, motherships get nerfed, how will alliances like PL who rely on them be able to cope? We all know that their subcap fleets will be slaughtered when we ping and get ~700 dudes logged in.

You keep saying this, but it's hard to tell what, if anything, will change until we get some hints on what said nerf will actually contain.

[Goblin]

Yes it is, that's half of the problem though.

When, not if, motherships get nerfed, how will alliances like PL who rely on them be able to cope? We all know that their subcap fleets will be slaughtered when we ping and get ~700 dudes logged in.

There aren't many entities that can muster up 700 ships to a fleet. And Goon.co can only do it because they are at DEFCON 1.

[Goblin]

Double . Might as well add some content.

For all people are moaning now about how a hundred guys in supercarriers can hold a several hundred man BS blob at bay, its going to be much worse when that BS blob gets ripped to shreds by 20 guys in bombers.

Bombers need to be used for their full potential. I cant believe its been ignored in the extent it has, the fact that 50 guys in waves of could kill 10x that amount of people if there is some competence on the bomber side. While lag and the fact 90% of your bombers will die is an issue, persistence could at least iron out some of the problems.

Also the feeling of killing stuff in a bomber is one of the greatest satisfactions in eve.

[Ernie The Ishkur]

Our Mael pilots are getting better and better, 700 wtf? Soon we'll only need 200!

At the front end I've noticed a massive difference in just how fast stuff is going down, the disciplined primary alpha fire is staggering, most of us are trying to shoot stuff that's simply not there anymore.